I have searched around and failed to find an answer for this specific question;
Can you use Scar Hex on a creature that is already currently under the effects of Scar Hex, assuming that you have a high enough Int to do so (however that need is interpreted for this instance). If so, would that mean that the creature has two separate 'scars' on it and uses two 'slots' of scarring (as two separate creatures would)?
In extrapolation, if you can Scar Hex a creature already under the effects of a Scar Hex then, presumably, you can use Scar Hex on the creature in question anywhere within the mile distance of the already present Scar Hex, yes?
Further extrapolation, based on the apparent RAW interaction between Scar Hex and Split Hex, you could re-scar a creature within the mile limit to also scar a secondary creature within 30ft. of the original creature. In effect, long-distance scarring?
I realize that RAI, this seems utterly ridiculous but I can't find any reason RAW why it wouldn't be true, looking for some insight if there is any to be had here.
*Tangentially related non-rules question for Hex-users who use the Split Hex/Scar RAW interaction; How do you find it best to accumulate and maintain a standing collection of animals to use for this interaction? What sorts of Hexes do you find useful for this, as it would seem that the really good negative ones would be counterproductive unless you have a constant influx of new animals to use?
Any response is welcome
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Unless otherwise stated, abilities require line of sight to be activated on a chosen target. This means you cannot split hex based on the scarred individual unless you could also see the second target. They are, in effect, an invisible creature to you. If it required an attack roll then you'd have a chance, but would still have to blindly guess the correct square and roll a 50% miss chance on top of that. Scar hex bypasses this issue for the scarred individual, but not for anyone else.
That said, yes, you could use Scar on someone who's already scarred, but all this does is make it slightly more difficult to become completely scar-free. Well, that and it adds a new scar with an appearance of your choosing.
StabbittyDoom wrote: Unless otherwise stated, abilities require line of sight to be activated on a chosen target. This means you cannot split hex based on the scarred individual unless you could also see the second target. They are, in effect, an invisible creature to you. If it required an attack roll then you'd have a chance, but would still have to blindly guess the correct square and roll a 50% miss chance on top of that. Scar hex bypasses this issue for the scarred individual, but not for anyone else.
That said, yes, you could use Scar on someone who's already scarred, but all this does is make it slightly more difficult to become completely scar-free. Well, that and it adds a new scar with an appearance of your choosing.
I'd like to get a source to that rule, if you don't mind. Also if that's just generally true for abilities that don't call out exceptions, Scar itself doesn't call out an exception, does that mean that in order to affect a scarred creature with another hex, you still need line of sight? Scar Hex doesn't specifically make an exception to this, it just extends the range which would seem to make the mile limiter moot.
As for splitting a hex, if that general rule about abilities holds true, would I not just need line of sight from the animal I am using to carry hexes and an awareness of where a secondary target is? If not, would a spell or effect such as Share Senses not fill that requirement?
As for the double scarring, would that count as having two separate scars (that would presumably have to be removed individually either by the target or the witch) and therefore count as having two creatures scarred (with regards to the witch's maximum capacity of creatures scarred based on Int Mod)?
Scar Hex unfortunately doesn't alleviate the need for line of sight, it just extends the range to a mile. I'm guessing this wasn't intentional, but it is what it is.
Generally, applying the same effect to the same creature causes no additional effect other than to extend the duration. As there is a visual effect associated with Scar, I'd personally rule that the newest Scar replaces the previous one. (however, in keeping with how other hexes work, I would also rule this is a per-witch limit, and you could have multiple Scars from multiple witches)
The relevant rules are in the combat section:
Quote: Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. Quote: Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). and the magic section:
Quote: Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
Quote: Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.
Byakko wrote: Scar Hex unfortunately doesn't alleviate the need for line of sight, it just extends the range to a mile. I'm guessing this wasn't intentional, but it is what it is.
Generally, applying the same effect to the same creature causes no additional effect other than to extend the duration. As there is a visual effect associated with Scar, I'd personally rule that the newest Scar replaces the previous one. (however, in keeping with how other hexes work, I would also rule this is a per-witch limit, and you could have multiple Scars from multiple witches)
The relevant rules are in the combat section:
Quote: Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. Quote: Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). and the magic section:
Quote: Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same
...
The rules about stacking effects aren't relevant here I don't think unless it actually prevents using the hex on the same target twice because we're not really concerned about whether or not they 'stack' just whether or not it can trigger Split Hex when it happens (whether it replaces the old or otherwise). Useful info though.
EDIT: I see this was meant to address the issue of whether or not they represent two scars and two 'slots'. Interesting.
I would presume that those combat rules affect attacks only, which hexes definitely are not, is there some ruling or explicit rule somewhere that says SU abilities or (abilities in general) still fall under this? Attack is so specific as a defined term in pathfinder that I'm hesitant to accept that as covering Hexes as well.
It's definitely an attack hence the Will save to resist.
By the time you're splitting hexes it won't be a major resource drain to scry on the thing. Also some good role play opportunities ("Mirror, mirror, on the wall...").
The language is a little ambiguous but does seem to assume that a creature can only have one scar. This also matches the idea that "scar" is a status that can be represented by varying types of marks. Additional scars would get folded into the overall scar status. I would be inclined to rule that it's a new scar and allow you do split hex it, but that's just me.
Tactically I believe the gold standard is turtles in backpacks. They can suffer terrible d20 rolls and fall asleep many times before they need to be replaced. Even nauseating them is no big deal. Ice Tomb will require new turtles.
Scar has a single target: the one you want to affect. While another witch can also scar this target, you can do so only once, since a second scar application would only overwrite the first.
I think split hex would allow you to add a scar to another within 30' of the scarred one, since that is the distance limit on Split Hex.
As to line of effect, the scar itself provides that for the witch with respect to the one scarred. Normal line-of-sight or line-of-effect is not needed to use the witch's hexes on the scarred one. To scar another with split hex, line-of-effect between the two targets would be needed, and line-of-sight to the second target needed. Divination on the one scarred can do this. Otherwise, distance might prevent line-of-sight due to perception penalties.
/cevah
Cevah, there's nothing in Scar Hex's rules that says the need for line of sight/effect is waived.
Quote: The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. So the range is upped to 1 mile (and you have a body part for scrying), but all other normal requirements still have to be met.
So you think you have line-of-sight when there is a perception penalty of -528? I don't.
Scar FAQ: "Fourth, the hex could benefit from a mechanical boost. Therefore, scarring a creature with the hex has two benefits: the witch can use any of her hexes on that creature at a range of up to one mile, and the witch is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scry and similar divinations."
How many other things act at 1 mile that require line-of-sight and/or line-of-effect? Most long range stuff I can think of are either dimensional magics (teleport, etc.) or area (control weather, etc.).
Given that it is a mechanical boost to the hex, and it explicitly states it works, I think it bypasses those limits. In that it acts as though you have an actual part of the scarred one for divination, even though all you really have is a SU ability, I think that is even more evidence that it overrides those limits.
/cevah
Ichthyodactyl wrote: 1) Can you use Scar Hex on a creature that is already currently under the effects of Scar Hex
2) Scar Hex and Split Hex, you could ... a secondary creature within 30ft. of the original creature. In effect, long-distance scarring?
1) Same Effect don't stack, it would already be scared.
2) You can't Split Hex on something if you don't have line of effect and line of sight. If you can see your Scar'd target and you have unobstructed line of effect, then yes. Otherwise no.
Cevah, the problems with using Perception at long range are an entirely different matter. Clearly the perception skill doesn't work well when determining sight to distant things, and this applies to many other situations such as firing bows and casting (enlarged) fireballs.
That being said, line of sight can still be determined, and there is absolutely nothing in Scar's description which gives you the ability to ignore LoS requirements.
Or are you claiming that using the metamagic Enlarge Spell on a Fireball should also remove its LoS requirement? It's doing the same thing - increasing the range.
(btw, an Enlarged Fireball at caster level 20 has a range of about half a mile, so this is actually relevant)
@Byakko: The fireball spell needs to be targeted. Using the scar does not.
Also, consider RAI: the FAQ refers to using thematically appropriate things to determine mechanics. How many stories of witches cursing others involve them in their stronghold casting evil magic against the one cursed, even thought the target is not in view and may even be in a closed room. Contrast that to the number of stories that need the witch to see what is going on with the target.
I grant that RAW is silent, but the divination focus, which bypasses both lines, works thru the hex. I think this is a strong argument that using the scar does not need them either. You also have the general rule of lines, but the specific rule in the hex saying it works. I think you need to show more support for the lines to outweigh these two things.
/cevah
The RAW isn't at all silent. This really isn't ambiguous. There is no specific rule here saying you get to ignore line of sight. Thus, you need to be able to target them normally the same way you do for any other hex with a range. The only (relevant) thing Scar is doing for you is increasing the range you can use hexes at.
You're welcome to use thematic flavoring to create house rules in your home game, but this is the rules forum and there really isn't any rules support for your stance. And this is coming from a guy who typically loves to say "it's actually kinda vague...". This just isn't one of those cases.
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