lemeres |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Murder-hobodom isn't the only path to experience points. You gain experience through all sorts of "advancing the story" means like forging alliances or retrieving lost artifacts or GM fiat.
....I can't remember the last time my IT guy forged an artifact and formed alliances.
Sorry, I just view wizardry like a very specific form of college education (or the equivilant, in an apprentice system world). It is like how most engineers do fairly mundane jobs... and a few could, possibly, design giant death robots that could bring a dark recockoning upon all that oppose him.
I think most people will just be satisfied with the money they get from scrolls and fairly minor magic items.
Again, this is just a different preference in story telling when it comes to background processes that have little to nothing to do with the story and gameplay. I just regard most of the high level characters as outliers, and that most normal people are simply not involved wtih the large scale conflicts that we encounter at high levels.
Bob Bob Bob |
Well, so there's two points to consider. First, the bare minimum challenge a level 20 wizard should consist of is 9th level spells and 19 Int. Without that it's not properly a level 20 wizard. Second, the absolute maximum that a level 20 wizard could be. Infinite money, time, Int in the 30s, every spell known and all the right ones picked out. There's quite a lot of range between those but it sets up a good starting point.
So for starters, the wizard is going to be at least as smart as the smartest people on Earth. From there they go up to (assuming knowledge checks above DC 10 could be made untrained, since that's the easiest Int skill for us to understand) Sherlock Holmsing their way through the line of succession of a kingdom, whether a particular terrain feature is natural or artificial, where the local thieves guild is, what it's called, and who runs it, obscure or ancient historical events, where the nearest town is, and how deep underground they are. Just from educated guesses (again, assuming knowledge checks above DC 10 could be made untrained, just to give us an idea what 30 Int is worth).
Then we get into the spells. It doesn't take a genius to realize that demiplanes are convenient and safe. It doesn't take an expert to realize that planar binding and simulacrum can get you better help than hiring some schmuck off the street (or they can use summon monster on a timeless with respect to magic demiplane). For manual labor it only takes a bit of amorality to realize that zombies and skeletons don't need to eat, drink, or rest and never age or do anything except what you tell them to. For the more moral, you get the same effect with animated object on statues.
And unless the wizard has made it to level 20 without enemies, opposition, or a fight of any kind, then presumably they have some kind of backup plan in the event of their impending death. Whether it's not being there (astral projection), coming back after (clone or a friend with raise dead), or escaping (contingency), presumably they have something that makes "just killing them" a difficult proposition. Yes, presumably a wizard could make it to level 20 just overcoming other challenges besides combat. They would still have to be appropriate challenges for a level 19 character, which is to say, pretty freaking out there. Even if the challenges were always a few levels below the wizard, that's still like 10 levels above what "normal" people in the world have to deal with. They're not negotiating between neighboring kingdoms, they're negotiating between the City of Brass and Sigil (insert your own mythical cities as appropriate).
Pixie, the Leng Queen |
I would like to point out that Wizards are also know for doing stuff for the dumbest reasons...
Heck in Golarian there is a level 15 wizard who literally put his tower on the sun... why? Because he can... and because politics suck...
lemeres |
I would like to point out that Wizards are also know for doing stuff for the dumbest reasons...
Heck in Golarian there is a level 15 wizard who literally put his tower on the sun... why? Because he can... and because politics suck...
Yeah....maybe that typifies high level wizards better than paranoia- having so much power that you can move to the sun in order to make a point.
"Forget all you- Fire elementals and efreet are better comapny, and blazing, blinding heat is a better view that your dumb faces".
My Self |
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:I would like to point out that Wizards are also know for doing stuff for the dumbest reasons...
Heck in Golarian there is a level 15 wizard who literally put his tower on the sun... why? Because he can... and because politics suck...
Yeah....maybe that typifies high level wizards better than paranoia- having so much power that you can move to the sun in order to make a point.
"Forget all you- Fire elementals and efreet are better comapny, and blazing, blinding heat is a better view that your dumb faces".
I wonder how he got the fire immunity. He's not 17th level, so he can't Shapechange + Ring of Continuation. Anybody?
Crimeo |
Not really "in his lair" but "from his lair":
0) Mind blank yourselves while prepping.
1) Cast contingency "If [enemy wizard] begins casting a spell or if a contingency of his triggers, cast a dazing spell swarm of fangs covering both me and him" (edit: actually I guess you could just do "If he appears from a gate in front of me")
2) Have both yourself and another party member prepare Gate.
3) Cast Gate, calling Jim just in front of you. Make sure your other party members stand back.
4) Have an archer in your group shoot an arrow at the guy, or he may attack first, doesn't matter.
5) Jim probably wins initiative and tries to cast some sort of spell on you OR he has a relevant contingency set up for whatever. Your contingency triggers either way. It is a valid contingency, because the swarm of fangs "affects your person." It just so happens to also affect his person. It is a level 3 spell with area effect no save, no spell resistance, which causes damage instantly to any creatures in the area. Since it causes damage, the dazing metamagic (which brings it to lvl 6 allowed by contingency) goes into effect, dazing both you and Jim for 3 rounds.
6a) If he had some contingency take effect already, it will now resolve afterward, perhaps teleporting him somewhere. But he will still be dazed wherever he ends up. Now is when your party member casts the OTHER Gate spell, bringing his dazed self right back again. Then stab him unconscious him while he's dazed. And he is out of contingencies.
6b) If he just cast a spell, it fails because he can't finish it dazed. Stabify him until unconscious. If some contingency triggers due to his health level or whatever, activate the second Gate and bring him back and finish the job.
7) While he is helpless, cast Flesh to stone on him.
8) Cast Soften Earth and Stone on him.
9) Dissolve his clay body in water and disperse throughout various world oceans.
Clones don't matter because he's not technically dead.
lemeres |
lemeres wrote:I wonder how he got the fire immunity. He's not 17th level, so he can't Shapechange + Ring of Continuation. Anybody?Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:I would like to point out that Wizards are also know for doing stuff for the dumbest reasons...
Heck in Golarian there is a level 15 wizard who literally put his tower on the sun... why? Because he can... and because politics suck...
Yeah....maybe that typifies high level wizards better than paranoia- having so much power that you can move to the sun in order to make a point.
"Forget all you- Fire elementals and efreet are better comapny, and blazing, blinding heat is a better view that your dumb faces".
I am writing it off as 'cool NPC stuff'.
Like that one spawn of rovagug that was killed by boiling the sea and then tearing its heart out. I have no idea how you would do that in the rules, but it sounds awesome, so it goes in.
I mean...I don't even know how anything lives near the sun anyway/ Not talking about heat- the gravity. Except when fancy magic stuff is happening, the physical look to be at least a little 'normal'. So I have no idea how relatively low strength fire creatures even move themselves (since they would weigh thousands of pounds- way above their drag capacity). So, if relatively low magic creatures like salamanders and fire elementals can make their way around, there must be some affordable options.
Rakshaka |
Speaking as someone who has played a 20th level wizard who abused the heck out of Clone, Astral Projection, and Eternalness, there were about four spells which no matter what contingencies I had in place, always gave me pause. These are all spells that don't necessarily kill outright (which there are dozens of contingencies against) but disable permanently. Short of Spell Turning (which you should expect) or someone casting Greater Spell Immunity (possibly via Wish), these spells will take a wizard out.
1)Trap the Soul: As mentioned, this circumvents the defensive measures of clones and Astral Projection by going straight to the source. There is very little defense against this spell.
2)Stone to Flesh: Again, this circumvents the mechanics of Clone and what-not since the soul is still stuck in the petrified body.
3)Temporal Stasis: Its a shame it has a save now, but even still, this will stop someone forever and again circumvents Clone and Astral Projection.
4)Imprisonment: Same idea as above, if their held in stasis, there's no reforming.
So yeah, the best way to take out a 20th level wizard is not to kill them (which they should have dozens of contingencies against) but to stop them with magic. Oh, Insanity and Feeblemind are also kind of scary.
Wolfsnap |
Again: you will never be able to locate a truly smart 20th lvl wizard. If he or she has a public face it will almost certainly be some kind of banal simulacra or automaton that doesn't ever offend anybody and is politically neutral while the wizard himself/herself is lying on a pleasant beach somewhere, beer in hand, living the life of a retired fisherman and occasionally going into his or her extra dimensional laboratory to pursue a fun-but-not-too-dangerous experiment. You know- just to keep their hand in.
Crimeo |
Again: you will never be able to locate a truly smart 20th lvl wizard. If he or she has a public face it will almost certainly be some kind of banal simulacra or automaton that doesn't ever offend anybody and is politically neutral while the wizard himself/herself is lying on a pleasant beach somewhere, beer in hand, living the life of a retired fisherman and occasionally going into his or her extra dimensional laboratory to pursue a fun-but-not-too-dangerous experiment. You know- just to keep their hand in.
As above, Gate.
Gate says you can call forth anybody you like (you may have to not be on his plane, this is easy).
"I would like Jim Samuelson, the wizard [one sentence about a time you encountered him]. I do not want any simulacra, clones, pets, summons, companions, familiars, or undead of his. If we actually met any of those before, give me their master now instead."
If you want to make it last another move action for the extra speech time, fine by me, don't need that move action.
If the beach beer in his hand interferes with spellcasting, all the better.
Wolfsnap |
Wolfsnap wrote:Again: you will never be able to locate a truly smart 20th lvl wizard.As above, Gate.
Gate says you can call forth anybody you like (you may have to not be on his plane, this is easy).
"I would like Jim Samuelson, the wizard [one sentence about a time you encountered him]. I do not want any simulacra, clones, pets, summons, companions, familiars, or undead of his. If we actually met any of those before, give me their master now instead."
If you want to make it last another move action for the extra speech time, fine by me, don't need that move action.
If the beach beer in his hand interferes with spellcasting, all the better.
Ah, but if he was a TRULY smart wizard, you would never know that his name was Jim Samuelson, and you would never have encountered him personally, and any identifying information you had on him would actually be carefully placed misinformation.
And if he was Epically smart, he would make sure that you had no reason to want to kill him in the first place. :)
Kthulhu |
I would like to point out that Wizards are also know for doing stuff for the dumbest reasons...
Heck in Golarian there is a level 15 wizard who literally put his tower on the sun... why? Because he can... and because politics suck...
Now he's trapped there because his spellbooks were made of paper.
Bob Bob Bob |
Wolfsnap wrote:Again: you will never be able to locate a truly smart 20th lvl wizard. If he or she has a public face it will almost certainly be some kind of banal simulacra or automaton that doesn't ever offend anybody and is politically neutral while the wizard himself/herself is lying on a pleasant beach somewhere, beer in hand, living the life of a retired fisherman and occasionally going into his or her extra dimensional laboratory to pursue a fun-but-not-too-dangerous experiment. You know- just to keep their hand in.As above, Gate.
Gate says you can call forth anybody you like (you may have to not be on his plane, this is easy).
"I would like Jim Samuelson, the wizard [one sentence about a time you encountered him]. I do not want any simulacra, clones, pets, summons, companions, familiars, or undead of his. If we actually met any of those before, give me their master now instead."
If you want to make it last another move action for the extra speech time, fine by me, don't need that move action.
If the beach beer in his hand interferes with spellcasting, all the better.
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
So, at best, you could haul people off of demiplanes or while they're plane hopping. Not if they're just chilling on a beach.
Crimeo |
Ah, but if he was a TRULY smart wizard, you would never know that his name was Jim Samuelson, and you would never have encountered him personally, and any identifying information you had on him would actually be carefully placed misinformation.
And if he was Epically smart, he would make sure that you had no reason to want to kill him in the first place. :)
Well yeah exactly, if so, then I don't need/want to kill him. The thread may just assume he's not that smart of a wizard!
So, at best, you could haul people off of demiplanes or while they're plane hopping. Not if they're just chilling on a beach.
This seems very not RAI, since by that interpretation, Gate wouldn't work for like 99% of what people use Gate for (calling outsiders from their home planes where they are not extraplanars...)
I should think it means "They are extraplanar on the plane YOU are at/calling them to". This would make much more sense in context. Which would mean I just try it, and if it doesn't work, then he's on this plane (and native to it), so I move to another one and try again.
MeanMutton |
Quote:Ah, but if he was a TRULY smart wizard, you would never know that his name was Jim Samuelson, and you would never have encountered him personally, and any identifying information you had on him would actually be carefully placed misinformation.
And if he was Epically smart, he would make sure that you had no reason to want to kill him in the first place. :)
Well yeah exactly, if so, then I don't need/want to kill him. The thread may just assume he's not that smart of a wizard!
Quote:So, at best, you could haul people off of demiplanes or while they're plane hopping. Not if they're just chilling on a beach.This seems very not RAI, since by that interpretation, Gate wouldn't work for like 99% of what people use Gate for (calling outsiders from their home planes where they are not extraplanars...)
I should think it means "They are extraplanar on the plane YOU are at/calling them to". This would make much more sense in context. Which would mean I just try it, and if it doesn't work, then he's on this plane (and native to it), so I move to another one and try again.
Gate feels like a stretch here.
MeanMutton |
MeanMutton wrote:Murder-hobodom isn't the only path to experience points. You gain experience through all sorts of "advancing the story" means like forging alliances or retrieving lost artifacts or GM fiat.....I can't remember the last time my IT guy forged an artifact and formed alliances.
Sorry, I just view wizardry like a very specific form of college education (or the equivilant, in an apprentice system world). It is like how most engineers do fairly mundane jobs... and a few could, possibly, design giant death robots that could bring a dark recockoning upon all that oppose him.
I think most people will just be satisfied with the money they get from scrolls and fairly minor magic items.
Again, this is just a different preference in story telling when it comes to background processes that have little to nothing to do with the story and gameplay. I just regard most of the high level characters as outliers, and that most normal people are simply not involved wtih the large scale conflicts that we encounter at high levels.
I don't get your point, honestly. Your IT guy likely isn't a 20th level wizard in a fantasy role-playing game.
Returning from my tongue-in-cheek comment, we already the guy is 20th level. We're not talking talking all the normal, everyday wizard running around. We're talking about a hypothetical 20th level wizard. There's no requirement that he got there through adventuring. It could have just been years of study, among other things.
Crimeo |
Gate feels like a stretch here.
Why's that? It even goes out of it's way to state that the only things that can resist it by choice are unique creatures (a technical term referring to the four horsemen and such things, not just any specific creature) or deities. 20th level mortals need not apply to this list.
You do need to be able to specify the target clearly to the spell, so a wizard could hide from it by you not knowing he exists or enough detail to distinguish him from anybody else. But if he hasn't done anything / isn't responsible for anything notable / etc then he's not a threat so who cares that I can't kill him using this?
lemeres |
lemeres wrote:MeanMutton wrote:Murder-hobodom isn't the only path to experience points. You gain experience through all sorts of "advancing the story" means like forging alliances or retrieving lost artifacts or GM fiat.....I can't remember the last time my IT guy forged an artifact and formed alliances.
Sorry, I just view wizardry like a very specific form of college education (or the equivilant, in an apprentice system world). It is like how most engineers do fairly mundane jobs... and a few could, possibly, design giant death robots that could bring a dark recockoning upon all that oppose him.
I think most people will just be satisfied with the money they get from scrolls and fairly minor magic items.
Again, this is just a different preference in story telling when it comes to background processes that have little to nothing to do with the story and gameplay. I just regard most of the high level characters as outliers, and that most normal people are simply not involved wtih the large scale conflicts that we encounter at high levels.
I don't get your point, honestly. Your IT guy likely isn't a 20th level wizard in a fantasy role-playing game.
Returning from my tongue-in-cheek comment, we already the guy is 20th level. We're not talking talking all the normal, everyday wizard running around. We're talking about a hypothetical 20th level wizard. There's no requirement that he got there through adventuring. It could have just been years of study, among other things.
I am saying that most people will never BECOME 20th level wizards, even if that is their class. Most will settle in for boring jobs producing minor magic items and some light spell casting services.
You missed a lot of my comments where I critisized people for making broad statements that implied all wizards are the ultra paranoided guys with 50 layers of defense, since most people settle into mediocrity long before they can do stuff like that or reasonably expect to need any of that.
You also missed the part where I acknowledged that my objections might not apply to our 20th level wizard may be that paranoid hyper prepared guy, since, yeah, he aimed for the greatest heights of magical power, and had to deal with a lot along the way (even the ones that just stayed home and got to 20th level via research had to deal with high level thieves trying to steal his research, or just the really, really valuable items he might produce). But I simply wanted it to be known that I disapproved of the broad sweeping stereotypes used in the thread that applied that attitude to all wizards as a stereotype since most wizards neer really enter into that world, since they aim for something much safer and mundane.
I have mostly been speaking to those- the fantasy world equivilant of that boring IT guy that likely outnumbers even mid level casters 100 to 1. They are there...and the never matter enough past early levels for the story to EVER bother mentioning them really. It is a basic assumption of world building of background elements that are presumably there.
MeanMutton |
MeanMutton wrote:lemeres wrote:MeanMutton wrote:Murder-hobodom isn't the only path to experience points. You gain experience through all sorts of "advancing the story" means like forging alliances or retrieving lost artifacts or GM fiat.....I can't remember the last time my IT guy forged an artifact and formed alliances.
Sorry, I just view wizardry like a very specific form of college education (or the equivilant, in an apprentice system world). It is like how most engineers do fairly mundane jobs... and a few could, possibly, design giant death robots that could bring a dark recockoning upon all that oppose him.
I think most people will just be satisfied with the money they get from scrolls and fairly minor magic items.
Again, this is just a different preference in story telling when it comes to background processes that have little to nothing to do with the story and gameplay. I just regard most of the high level characters as outliers, and that most normal people are simply not involved wtih the large scale conflicts that we encounter at high levels.
I don't get your point, honestly. Your IT guy likely isn't a 20th level wizard in a fantasy role-playing game.
Returning from my tongue-in-cheek comment, we already the guy is 20th level. We're not talking talking all the normal, everyday wizard running around. We're talking about a hypothetical 20th level wizard. There's no requirement that he got there through adventuring. It could have just been years of study, among other things.
I am saying that most people will never BECOME 20th level wizards, even if that is their class. Most will settle in for boring jobs producing minor magic items and some light spell casting services.
You missed a lot of my comments where I critisized people for making broad statements that implied all wizards are the ultra paranoided guys with 50 layers of defense, since most people settle into mediocrity long before they can do stuff like that or reasonably expect...
Looks like we were talking about two completely different things, then. Fair enough!
MeanMutton |
Quote:Gate feels like a stretch here.Why's that? It even goes out of it's way to state that the only things that can resist it by choice are unique creatures (a technical term referring to the four horsemen and such things, not just any specific creature) or deities. 20th level mortals need not apply to this list.
It's the "extraplanar" part that feels like a stretch, primarily. But also, now that you mention it, the "unique" part, too. There aren't likely to be two 20th level wizards with exactly the same powers floating around out there, like there are with "generic" outsiders like lantern archons.
LazarX |
Well, so there's two points to consider. First, the bare minimum challenge a level 20 wizard should consist of is 9th level spells and 19 Int. Without that it's not properly a level 20 wizard. Second, the absolute maximum that a level 20 wizard could be. Infinite money, time, Int in the 30s, every spell known and all the right ones picked out. There's quite a lot of range between those but it sets up a good starting point.
So for starters, the wizard is going to be at least as smart as the smartest people on Earth. From there they go up to (assuming knowledge checks above DC 10 could be made untrained, since that's the easiest Int skill for us to understand) Sherlock Holmsing their way through the line of succession of a kingdom, whether a particular terrain feature is natural or artificial, where the local thieves guild is, what it's called, and who runs it, obscure or ancient historical events, where the nearest town is, and how deep underground they are. Just from educated guesses (again, assuming knowledge checks above DC 10 could be made untrained, just to give us an idea what 30 Int is worth).
Then we get into the spells. It doesn't take a genius to realize that demiplanes are convenient and safe. It doesn't take an expert to realize that planar binding and simulacrum can get you better help than hiring some schmuck off the street (or they can use summon monster on a timeless with respect to magic demiplane). For manual labor it only takes a bit of amorality to realize that zombies and skeletons don't need to eat, drink, or rest and never age or do anything except what you tell them to. For the more moral, you get the same effect with animated object on statues.
And unless the wizard has made it to level 20 without enemies, opposition, or a fight of any kind, then presumably they have some kind of backup plan in the event of their impending death. Whether it's not being there (astral projection), coming back after (clone or a friend with raise dead), or escaping (contingency), presumably they...
For your classic murderhobo wizard with no defined personality beyond paranoia and mercenary greed you're fine with what you've presented.. For any other kind of personality, that's where story comes in. Maybe the wizard is a patriot... Maybe he really doesn't cotten to the idea of sealing himself off in an astral fish bowl, because that's a lot of what makes life worth living you're missing out on. Maybe he has family... connections... people he cares about... or someone he hates so much, he won't leave the prime until he's personaly seen to their destruction.... or disgrace.
There ARE reasons most movie, and story villains don't abide by the Evil Overlord handbook. Because the scenario where the villain has no weaknesses, and makes no mistakes and is absolutely unbeatable... doesn't make for much of a story.
Bob Bob Bob |
For your classic murderhobo wizard with no defined personality beyond paranoia and mercenary greed you're fine with what you've presented.. For any other kind of personality, that's where story comes in. Maybe the wizard is a patriot... Maybe he really doesn't cotten to the idea of sealing himself off in an astral fish bowl, because that's a lot of what makes life worth living you're missing out on. Maybe he has family... connections... people he cares about... or someone he hates so much, he won't leave the prime until he's personaly seen to their destruction.... or disgrace.
There ARE reasons most movie, and story villains don't abide by the Evil Overlord handbook. Because the scenario where the villain has no weaknesses, and makes no mistakes and is absolutely unbeatable... doesn't make for much of a story.
I'm... not seeing how that has anything to do with what I posted?
Literally, all I posted was "and here's all the stuff our super intelligent person has at their disposal". I never said they would automatically use it. I think they'd be an idiot not to, but that's entirely their choice.
That being said, "the wizard has some glaring flaw that makes it super easy to kill them" is almost entirely useless to this discussion. The answer to that is simple, exploit their flaw. Unless you think we should list out every possible flaw a wizard might have, but that's an exercise in futility.
Crimeo |
It's the "extraplanar" part that feels like a stretch, primarily. But also, now that you mention it, the "unique" part, too. There aren't likely to be two 20th level wizards with exactly the same powers floating around out there, like there are with "generic" outsiders like lantern archons.
I mean I don't think it defines it anywhere, but it would be rather silly if it means "any unique creature" in the mundane sense of being your own individual, because then the spell would like.... never work on anything. EVERYONE is unique in the sense of not sharing the same tempero-spatial coordinates as another being, not being born from the same mother at the same time, etc. etc.
It much more reasonably refers to things that are unique in their type in the world, and not an example of anything, such as four horsemen, the archdevils, etc. Near-godly beings that they simply included another phrase for since they don't technically fall under the first part of the sentence as "deities".
Also, if it meant "any individual dude at all" then "deity" would be redundant, wouldn't it? So why did they bother writing that?
As for "extraplanar" it simply means "not in your native plane" Any creature can and will pick up the subtype while not on their native plane. The spell could refer to "extraplanar at their original location before being gated" in which case the spell would be pretty much completely useless all the time. Or it could mean "extraplanar in the location they are being called to" which would make much more sense.
But these are just interpretations based on the assumption that "a 9th level spell actually does something." I think that's a pretty strong assumption personally... but I don't claim it is absolutely true if you don't want to run your game like that.
MeanMutton |
MeanMutton wrote:It's the "extraplanar" part that feels like a stretch, primarily. But also, now that you mention it, the "unique" part, too. There aren't likely to be two 20th level wizards with exactly the same powers floating around out there, like there are with "generic" outsiders like lantern archons.I mean I don't think it defines it anywhere, but it would be rather silly if it means "any unique creature" in the mundane sense of being your own individual, because then the spell would like.... never work on anything. EVERYONE is unique in the sense of not sharing the same tempero-spatial coordinates as another being, not being born from the same mother at the same time, etc. etc.
It much more reasonably refers to things that are unique in their type in the world, and not an example of anything, such as four horsemen, the archdevils, etc. Near-godly beings that they simply included another phrase for since they don't technically fall under the first part of the sentence as "deities".
Also, if it meant "any individual dude at all" then "deity" would be redundant, wouldn't it? So why did they bother writing that?
As for "extraplanar" it simply means "not in your native plane" Any creature can and will pick up the subtype while not on their native plane. The spell could refer to "extraplanar at their original location before being gated" in which case the spell would be pretty much completely useless all the time. Or it could mean "extraplanar in the location they are being called to" which would make much more sense.
But these are just interpretations based on the assumption that "a 9th level spell actually does something." I think that's a pretty strong assumption personally... but I don't claim it is absolutely true if you don't want to run your game like that.
Except that there are extraplanar beings who are pretty much exact carbon copies of each other - devils, demons, daemon, inevitables, archons, angels, etc. - and they're the ones that the spell appears aimed at calling, not "any person in the world whatsoever without a single save at all".
The problem is that the Gate spell text is 3.5 carry-over but they redefined the definition of "extraplanar" in Pathfinder so the spell does something distinctly different now than it did when it was written.
lemeres |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I have gleened from this thread...
How to kill a 20th level wizard in his lair:
Don't.
Get someone else to do it.
Yes!
A group of highly trained, well equipped combatants with no specific ties to anyone (so it is harder to trace back to you), that are more than willing to go on this suicide mission on the promise of money and vague indications of valuable magical items they can steal in the lair.
Now what is the word for this sort of fool again...oh yes! Adventurers!
alexd1976 |
alexd1976 wrote:What I have gleened from this thread...
How to kill a 20th level wizard in his lair:
Don't.
Get someone else to do it.
Yes!
A group of highly trained, well equipped combatants with no specific ties to anyone (so it is harder to trace back to you), that are more than willing to go on this suicide mission on the promise of money and vague indications of valuable magical items they can steal in the lair.
Now what is the word for this sort of fool again...oh yes! Adventurers!
I think we may have stumbled on to something... game economy... I dunno...
I would never take on a lvl 20 wizard in an ambush situation. Best case scenario, we face one randomly, win or lose... you apologize to him and beg forgiveness.
Cause even if he dies, he's still got options.
Blakmane |
5) Jim probably wins initiative and tries to cast some sort of spell on you OR he has a relevant contingency set up for whatever. Your contingency triggers either way. It is a valid contingency, because the swarm of fangs "affects your person." It just so happens to also affect his person. It is a level 3 spell with area effect no save, no spell resistance, which causes damage instantly to any creatures in the area. Since it causes damage, the dazing metamagic (which brings it to lvl 6 allowed by contingency) goes into effect, dazing both you and Jim for 3 rounds.
Your plan fails here for two reasons.
1) From dazing metamagic:
"If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect."
Good luck targetting the wizard's strongest save with a 3rd level spell.
2) Jim casts emergency force sphere to interrupt your fangs, leaving you dazed and him free to teleport back out again/contingency/whatever. Having EMS memorised is in no way shrodinger's wizard: you should reasonably expect any wizard with access to the spell to have it memorised.
The gate thing is nifty. What counts as a 'unique creature' is the real clincher there --- up to the purview of the DM in that case. Your biggest problem is that any self-respecting 20th level wizard with enemies will need a defense against planeshift/teleport ganksquads already -- probably a dimensional lock on his lair -- which confounds your gate idea. Certainly it's a great opportunity if he isn't adequately protected, though.
lemeres |
Crimeo wrote:
5) Jim probably wins initiative and tries to cast some sort of spell on you OR he has a relevant contingency set up for whatever. Your contingency triggers either way. It is a valid contingency, because the swarm of fangs "affects your person." It just so happens to also affect his person. It is a level 3 spell with area effect no save, no spell resistance, which causes damage instantly to any creatures in the area. Since it causes damage, the dazing metamagic (which brings it to lvl 6 allowed by contingency) goes into effect, dazing both you and Jim for 3 rounds.Your plan fails here for two reasons.
1) From dazing metamagic:
"If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect."
Good luck targetting the wizard's strongest save with a 3rd level spell.
Well, admittedly, from the way people argue in this thread, we are working with the perfect minmaxer wizard born out of every wizard guide these boards have to offer (as well as the schrodinger-esque power to always have the exact right spells prepared at all times...but I'll write that up to cheating GM). As such, he probably dumped wisdom to get more Int. It is not like we are targetting a fighter's fort save or a rogue's reflex here.
My Self |
Blakmane wrote:Well, admittedly, from the way people argue in this thread, we are working with the perfect minmaxer wizard born out of every wizard guide these boards have to offer (as well as the schrodinger-esque power to always have the exact right spells prepared at all times...but I'll write that up to cheating GM). As such, he probably dumped wisdom to get more Int. It is not like we are targetting a fighter's fort save or a rogue's reflex here.Crimeo wrote:
5) Jim probably wins initiative and tries to cast some sort of spell on you OR he has a relevant contingency set up for whatever. Your contingency triggers either way. It is a valid contingency, because the swarm of fangs "affects your person." It just so happens to also affect his person. It is a level 3 spell with area effect no save, no spell resistance, which causes damage instantly to any creatures in the area. Since it causes damage, the dazing metamagic (which brings it to lvl 6 allowed by contingency) goes into effect, dazing both you and Jim for 3 rounds.Your plan fails here for two reasons.
1) From dazing metamagic:
"If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect."
Good luck targetting the wizard's strongest save with a 3rd level spell.
Or an Oradin's will save?
Pixie, the Leng Queen |
Why does it sound like everyone who disparages optimizers tend to sound like they have no idea what they are talking about? Never have I seen a guide or anyone suggest dumping wis... on damn near anything. The ONLY time.I have seen Wis being dumped is with Paladins, Oradins, and the old sacred protection. Will is just TOO important a save to dump on...
And what is so shrodinger here? Most of the spells are common spells to have.prepared...
Just because you dont know how to play wizard does not mean everyone is a cheat...
Blakmane |
Blakmane wrote:Well, admittedly, from the way people argue in this thread, we are working with the perfect minmaxer wizard born out of every wizard guide these boards have to offer (as well as the schrodinger-esque power to always have the exact right spells prepared at all times...but I'll write that up to cheating GM). As such, he probably dumped wisdom to get more Int. It is not like we are targetting a fighter's fort save or a rogue's reflex here.Crimeo wrote:
5) Jim probably wins initiative and tries to cast some sort of spell on you OR he has a relevant contingency set up for whatever. Your contingency triggers either way. It is a valid contingency, because the swarm of fangs "affects your person." It just so happens to also affect his person. It is a level 3 spell with area effect no save, no spell resistance, which causes damage instantly to any creatures in the area. Since it causes damage, the dazing metamagic (which brings it to lvl 6 allowed by contingency) goes into effect, dazing both you and Jim for 3 rounds.Your plan fails here for two reasons.
1) From dazing metamagic:
"If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect."
Good luck targetting the wizard's strongest save with a 3rd level spell.
Assuming a perfectly optimised shrodinger's wizard is probably a bad idea in this particular case. 24 hour active prescience is child's play by 20th level. You absolutely cannot rely on something that allows a save at high levels.
But, ignoring that, and the fact that wizards don't dump wis, assuming an 'optimised wizard' starts with his lowest possible wis (7), he ends with a wis of 12 from wishes alone. By 20th level he still has a save of (cloak of resistance +5, +12 base, +1 from 12 wis, ~+4 from headband) = ~+22 will save.
Meanwhile, your daze has a save of 10+3+10+2 (let's say you are also shrodinger's wizard with 30 INT and spell focus)= DC 25. He fails only on a 1-3. Hardly a solid strategy.
You could certainly push that DC higher with specific build resources -- but so could he with will. You may be better with a contingency antimagic field and readied disjunctions.
Of course, if we want to get silly with claims of shrodinger, it's easy to just say 'wizard has spellbane prepped for your specific combination' and leave it at that..... so we're hardly playing unfair here. Especially as the opposing party is also using one or more high level wizards/clerics to achieve the assault, we are all on similar grounds re optimisation! Unless you want me to start saying dazing spell is 'shrodinger's wizard'?
My Self |
Aroden's Spellbane- Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Wish, Greater Spell Immunity, Time Stop, and any other spells you anticipate the wizard having, perhaps. Limited by your number of castings of Aroden's Spellbane.
Perhaps you use a Selective metamagic rod and cast Antimagic Field on yourself, or Mage's Excellent Enclosure (selective) on the two of you at the same time, assuming you're able to get into the same room.
Blakmane |
Hmmmm....
Ok, another tact.
What options are there to counter zerg rushes of maneuvers from eldritch guardian, steel soul dwarves with shatter spell?
If I, for instance, use dirty trick master over a dozen or so times, what can a wizard do to stop it?
I think the answer to the OP's question of how to beat a 20th level wizard in his lair is probably more something along the lines of:
"A formulated team of high level characters specially designed to combat the capabilities of the wizard and his lair in question".
or
"Question too vague, be more specific".
Only once you know the capabilities of the spellcaster is it worth worrying about specific tactics. For example, zerg rushing a wizard may work, but if he has access to clones it is entirely pointless as you need a trap the soul or similar (killing him achieves nothing) --- or if he has a teleport contingency. So, you need to ask questions like 'does he have clone?' 'does he have spellbane?' 'does he have blood money?' 'how are simulacrums being ruled in this game?' 'what contingency does he have?' etc etc etc.
lemeres |
lemeres wrote:Hmmmm....
Ok, another tact.
What options are there to counter zerg rushes of maneuvers from eldritch guardian, steel soul dwarves with shatter spell?
If I, for instance, use dirty trick master over a dozen or so times, what can a wizard do to stop it?
I think the answer to the OP's question of how to beat a 20th level wizard in his lair is probably more something along the lines of:
"A formulated team of high level characters specially designed to combat the capabilities of the wizard and his lair in question".
or
"Question too vague, be more specific".
Only once you know the capabilities of the spellcaster is it worth worrying about specific tactics. For example, zerg rushing a wizard may work, but if he has access to clones it is entirely pointless as you need a trap the soul or similar (killing him achieves nothing) --- or if he has a teleport contingency. So, you need to ask questions like 'does he have clone?' 'does he have spellbane?' 'does he have blood money?' 'how are simulacrums being ruled in this game?' etc etc etc.
Fair enough, although trap the soul would be a lot easier if he was disabled with nauseated. Take away his standard action, and he is largely restricted to quickened 5th level spells and below.
I wanted to know its validity as a shutdown measure if you could get into a straight fight (ie- am I missing some spell that does +25 on CMD versus dozens of maneuvers, that couldn't be stripped off with spell sunder).
I just got annoyed by all the jokes that you need to be a god, when there are plenty of ways to break the core assumptions of the system. And the system is generally not well suited for zerg rushing, especially with tactics meant to only appear 1-2 per group.
oldsaxhleel |
Meanwhile, your daze has a save of 10+3+10+2 (let's say you are also shrodinger's...
Heighten spell gives you free DC, you can apply it to an already meta magic'd spell and use the new spell slot to determine DC. So ignoring fangs, how about a heightened dazing quite possibly persistent lightning bolt?
[edit: typo on heighten]
oldsaxhleel |
That's not how Heighten works odsaxhleel.
Heighten only grants an increase in DC equal to the number of spell slot levels increased by the Heighten Feat alone.
It's in the FAQ.
And those of us who go straight from the book without reading through pages of revisions and faqs(read; most gaming groups) would know that how?
Gilarius |
Crimeo wrote:MeanMutton wrote:It's the "extraplanar" part that feels like a stretch, primarily. But also, now that you mention it, the "unique" part, too. There aren't likely to be two 20th level wizards with exactly the same powers floating around out there, like there are with "generic" outsiders like lantern archons.I mean I don't think it defines it anywhere, but it would be rather silly if it means "any unique creature" in the mundane sense of being your own individual, because then the spell would like.... never work on anything. EVERYONE is unique in the sense of not sharing the same tempero-spatial coordinates as another being, not being born from the same mother at the same time, etc. etc.
It much more reasonably refers to things that are unique in their type in the world, and not an example of anything, such as four horsemen, the archdevils, etc. Near-godly beings that they simply included another phrase for since they don't technically fall under the first part of the sentence as "deities".
Also, if it meant "any individual dude at all" then "deity" would be redundant, wouldn't it? So why did they bother writing that?
As for "extraplanar" it simply means "not in your native plane" Any creature can and will pick up the subtype while not on their native plane. The spell could refer to "extraplanar at their original location before being gated" in which case the spell would be pretty much completely useless all the time. Or it could mean "extraplanar in the location they are being called to" which would make much more sense.
But these are just interpretations based on the assumption that "a 9th level spell actually does something." I think that's a pretty strong assumption personally... but I don't claim it is absolutely true if you don't want to run your game like that.
Except that there are extraplanar beings who are pretty much exact carbon copies of each other - devils, demons, daemon, inevitables, archons, angels, etc. - and they're the ones that the spell appears aimed at calling, not "any person in the world whatsoever without a single save at all".
The problem is that the Gate spell text is 3.5 carry-over but they redefined the definition of "extraplanar" in Pathfinder so the spell does something distinctly different now than it did when it was written.
Just to add a bit more information to this discussion about 'Gate'. The text isn't just a carry-over from 3.5; the reference to 'unique beings' was present in the 1st edition spell. And it meant something specific that was (at least partially) lost through the editions: the 1st edition Monster Manual stated next to monsters' statblocks if they counted as 'Unique'. This distinction applied to almost all dangerous monsters from Type IV demons upwards - 'Nalfeshnee' was one, single, unique demon. There were many equivalent demons, but they also were unique beings. Ditto with 'Marilith'. One demoness was called Marilith; she had many sisters. I don't recall any monster which warranted having a name failing to be 'unique'.
By extension, Bob the Commoner was also one unique being - probably. There was no internet, no forum to discuss RAW vs RAI, just Dragon magazine with a letters page, so I have no idea how the designers intended the spell to work, but no-one I knew ever allowed it to summon anything or anyone with a name.Pathfinder does many things differently, individual GMs do things even more differently. Assuming that Gate can be used to call anyone is not a safe assumption - ask your GM, or ask the Paizo staff. On the other hand, I'd allow it to call anything you had the 'True Name' of.
Wolfsnap |
If anyone wants to, we can take this out of the realm of the hypothetical:
My homebrew campaign features a high level wizard named Lord Alban. He's known as someone who is active in the world, but very private. He has a known lair. I know what his preparations are, I know his stats, I know his tactics.
If you want to have a fun little exercise here, you all can try to take him out. I'll even offer a prize to the first one to do it.
If at least five people respond that they want to take up the challenge, I'll post the basic information that you have to start with.