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After the order is established, you can (and should?) ignore the actual numbers. To do otherwise would lead to the possibility of people either getting double turns, or alternatively, missing their turn entirely.It's possible to do this without things getting silly - you just have to apply a couple of extra rules to handle crossing the 'current initiative' barrier.
Example:
Cleric rolls 20 initiative
Vampire rolls 16 initiative
Sorcerer rolls 15 initiativeRound 1:
First, the Cleric casts Cat's Grace on Sorcerer - this increases the sorcerer's Dex by 4 and initiative by 2.
Now, on 17 Initiative count, it's the Sorcerer's turn. The Sorcerer casts Resist Energy.
Then, on 16 Initiative count, the Vampire casts a Unprepared Combatant on the sorcerer.
This reduces the Sorcerer to 13 Initiative. Since he's already acted this turn, he doesn't get to act again. (This is one of the extra rules.)Round 2:
The Cleric casts a buff spell.
Since the Sorcerer is currently on 13 Initiative, the Vampire is next on 16. He casts Dispel Magic on the Sorcerer. He fails to dispel the spells he wanted to dispel, instead dispelling Unprepared Combatant. This raises the Sorcerer back up to 17 Initiative. Since he's crossing over the current Initiative barrier on an increase, he gets to act again immediately after the Vampire. (This is the other extra rule - otherwise the Sorcerer might miss his turn entirely.)
No need for houserules:
The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Action Types
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
You have 1 standard and 1 move action or 1 full round action in 1 round. Even if your initiative came up several times in the same round, unless a specific rule say that you can exceed that number of actions, you cant make more than 1 standard and 1 move action or 1 full round action.
BTW: Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. mean that yes, you must track initiative for the whole combat.
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Does anyone here actually think that initiative is a fixed number after it's rolled? Seriously?
Yes.
If I make an attack, and something later in the same round reduces my strength, I don't go back and adjust my attack roll and re-determine if I hit or not. The number was rolled and the results were determined.
You only roll initiative once - at the start of combat. Anything that adds bonuses/penalties to an initiative check after the fact don't matter - the check was already made.
False analogy. Let's make a real one.
You have a strength of 18 and can easily transport all your gear. I hit you with ray of enfeeblement and apply a penalty of 10 points of strength. suddenly your carrying capacity had dropped a lot and you areoverburdened.
By your logic, you were able to move, so you are still capable to move.
By mine, you are affected by the spell and can't move anymore.
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It would do nothing during combat. But if you cast it before combat then it has full effect. It's like casting a mind effecting spell on an ooze or vermin. Not the right time for that spell.
You mean in the surprise round? Oops:
InitiativeAt the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
You spell start the combat, everyone roll initiative, then the spell is resolved when your turn come up. Your target can be flat footed, but there is no part of the rules that allow you to attack before initiative.
Does anyone here actually think that initiative is a fixed number after it's rolled? Seriously?
Yes.
If I make an attack, and something later in the same round reduces my strength, I don't go back and adjust my attack roll and re-determine if I hit or not. The number was rolled and the results were determined.
You only roll initiative once - at the start of combat. Anything that adds bonuses/penalties to an initiative check after the fact don't matter - the check was already made.
False analogy. Let's make a real one.
You have a strength of 18 and can easily transport all your gear. I hit you with ray of enfeeblement and apply a penalty of 10 points of strength. suddenly your carrying capacity had dropped a lot and you areoverburdened.
By your logic, you were able to move, so you are still capable to move.
By mine, you are affected by the spell and can't move anymore.
Yours is the false analogy. You make initiative rolls at the beginning of combat. During combat you get a penalty to your initiative rolls, this means that the next time you try to make an initiative check it'll apply this penalty. But it doesn't effect previous uses of your initiative, like the check you made when combat started.
Getting your str reduced means the next time you try to move you're encumbered, so when you try to move you can't. But it doesn't change the movement you made at the start of combat since that movement is done. That's why previous movement or previous attacks are the correct analogy, as they are rolls that are already done, thus you can't modify them. Initiative rolls determine your order and then you don't use initiative until you need to roll again for another combat.|
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Does anyone here actually think that initiative is a fixed number after it's rolled? Seriously?
Yes.
If I make an attack, and something later in the same round reduces my strength, I don't go back and adjust my attack roll and re-determine if I hit or not. The number was rolled and the results were determined.
You only roll initiative once - at the start of combat. Anything that adds bonuses/penalties to an initiative check after the fact don't matter - the check was already made.
False analogy. Let's make a real one.
You have a strength of 18 and can easily transport all your gear. I hit you with ray of enfeeblement and apply a penalty of 10 points of strength. suddenly your carrying capacity had dropped a lot and you areoverburdened.
By your logic, you were able to move, so you are still capable to move.
By mine, you are affected by the spell and can't move anymore.
Yours is the false analogy. You make initiative rolls at the beginning of combat. During combat you get a penalty to your initiative rolls, this means that the next time you try to make an initiative check it'll apply this penalty. But it doesn't effect previous uses of your initiative, like the check you made when combat started.
Getting your str reduced means the next time you try to move you're encumbered, so when you try to move you can't. But it doesn't change the movement you made at the start of combat since that movement is done. That's why previous movement or previous attacks are the correct analogy, as they are rolls that are already done, thus you can't modify them. Initiative rolls determine your order and then you don't use initiative until you need to roll again for another combat.
The die roll is done, the modifier change, same as with the load example.
When is made the check to see if you are overloaded? When you pick up something or drop something.
As neither of those action has happened, applying bbangerter the character has no reason to check his encumbrance.
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It would do nothing during combat. But if you cast it before combat then it has full effect. It's like casting a mind effecting spell on an ooze or vermin. Not the right time for that spell.You mean in the surprise round? Oops:
You spell start the combat, everyone roll initiative, then the spell is resolved when your turn come up. Your target can be flat footed, but there is no part of the rules that allow you to attack before initiative.
InitiativeAt the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
Your spell doesn't have to start a combat. And there are ways to cast spells undetected.
I go in invisible and cast a silent "Drop init by 20" spell, then come back to my party and we bust the door down and his init is super low.I'm a bard and have the feat to cast spells undetected as part of a performance. So as we're performing for the BBEG I cast the spell, then when we reach a certain part of the performance we jump out and attack.
There, I just listed 2 ways to get the spell off before combat. I know that the surprise round has already had people roll init. Thus why I said before combat, not "in the surprise round" as I didn't mean in the surprise round, but in fact actually did mean what I said, Before Combat.
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Having your Strength reduced by Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't actually reduce your carrying capacity.
In the silliness of Pathfinder's ability scores, only ability drain actually reduces your carrying capacity. Penalties and damage do not.
It's something I instead choose to add as a houserule when I GM.
The die roll is done, the modifier change, same as with the load example.
When is made the check to see if you are overloaded? When you pick up something or drop something.
As neither of those action has happened, applying bbangerter the character has no reason to check his encumbrance.
Once you're hit with the spell you'd immediately become encumbered, You'd have the encumbered status. It doesn't effect anything till you try to do something effected by encumbrance, like moving. You could stand there for hours and never have to suffer the consequences of being encumbered.
Same with the Attack roll example. If you had a +18 and hit, then got hit with a str loss, you now have a +16. On your next str attack you'd use the lower result, but the previous results aren't changed. You could switch to a crossbow and never notice the effects.
Same with initiative. If you had a +6 for this combat you've rolled and now we have the order for this combat. If I get hit with a dex loss my initiative is now a +4, but it doesn't effect the previous result. As long as we don't start any new combats I'll never notice the effect.
Also you don't make any "check" for encumbrance, I don't know if you think there was but just making sure we're on the same page.
If Initiative can never change then what does a Thunderstone do in combat?
"You can throw this stone as a ranged attack with a range increment of 20 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), it creates a deafening bang that is treated as a sonic attack. Each creature within a 10-foot-radius spread must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 hour. A deafened creature, in addition to the obvious effects, takes a –4 penalty on initiative and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast."
a thunderstone in combat makes them have a chance to lose verbal component spells.
If an enemy uses it, there's a chance his buds later in the dungeon get a bonus because if the players fight them in the next hour the player will have a penalty to their initiative for that next fight.
This is similar to poisons and diseases. Bad for combat because if you kill them the poison and disease never has time to work. But good for enemies because players that win the fight will have to deal with poison and disease. But if the players do it to a king in a big plot thing it can work for the players.
Does anyone here actually think that initiative is a fixed number after it's rolled? Seriously?
Yes.
If I make an attack, and something later in the same round reduces my strength, I don't go back and adjust my attack roll and re-determine if I hit or not. The number was rolled and the results were determined.
You only roll initiative once - at the start of combat. Anything that adds bonuses/penalties to an initiative check after the fact don't matter - the check was already made.
False analogy. Let's make a real one.
You have a strength of 18 and can easily transport all your gear. I hit you with ray of enfeeblement and apply a penalty of 10 points of strength. suddenly your carrying capacity had dropped a lot and you areoverburdened.
By your logic, you were able to move, so you are still capable to move.
By mine, you are affected by the spell and can't move anymore.
Yours is the false analogy. You make initiative rolls at the beginning of combat. During combat you get a penalty to your initiative rolls, this means that the next time you try to make an initiative check it'll apply this penalty. But it doesn't effect previous uses of your initiative, like the check you made when combat started.
Getting your str reduced means the next time you try to move you're encumbered, so when you try to move you can't. But it doesn't change the movement you made at the start of combat since that movement is done. That's why previous movement or previous attacks are the correct analogy, as they are rolls that are already done, thus you can't modify them. Initiative rolls determine your order and then you don't use initiative until you need to roll again for another combat.The die roll is done, the modifier change, same as with the load example.
When is made the check to see if you are overloaded? When you pick up something or drop something.
As neither of...
???
Carry capacity isn't a check.
A check refers to a d20 roll plus modifiers. Rolling for initiative is explicitly a Dex check. Carry capacity is not, since you aren't rolling.
Just out of curiosity, how many people here have actually gone and read the initiative rules. Because they say how to resolve initiative fairly explicitly.
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
The language pretty clearly indicates that you make a check at the start, and you use the result of the check to determine the order that creatures act in. The rules explicitly state that barring taking an action to change initiative (as per the special initiative actions), creatures act in the same order from round to round, which means that initiative modifiers changing literally cannot matter with regards to the order of creatures acting by RAW without a specific rules exception(which there isn't for the purpose of this discussion).
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There is much reading comprehension fail going on in this thread.
This is still going on, and it's disturbing.
People are talking past one another. Slow down and read the thread before you post, and especially read the comments you're replying to.
The Original Poster asked if "Conditions", such as deafness, modified your Initiative order mid combat. They do not.
That does not mean your initiative order cannot change due to Delaying or taking a Readied Action.
Actions ≠ Conditions
After your Initiative check has been rolled and recorded, no condition will retroactively change that result. It doesn't matter if you're unconscious, have your Dexterity reduced, deafened, targeted with Unprepared Combatant, or any other condition that would modify one's Initiative check. The check has been rolled. Move on.
Obviously any of those conditions that are present before Initiative is rolled will affect your check, but none of them will modify a check you've already rolled.
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Having your Strength reduced by Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't actually reduce your carrying capacity.
In the silliness of Pathfinder's ability scores, only ability drain actually reduces your carrying capacity. Penalties and damage do not.
It's something I instead choose to add as a houserule when I GM.
You are right, the FAQ speak only of the increases.
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
A logical extension would apply the same to damage or penalties, but RAW that is not true.
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It would do nothing during combat. But if you cast it before combat then it has full effect. It's like casting a mind effecting spell on an ooze or vermin. Not the right time for that spell.You mean in the surprise round? Oops:
You spell start the combat, everyone roll initiative, then the spell is resolved when your turn come up. Your target can be flat footed, but there is no part of the rules that allow you to attack before initiative.
InitiativeAt the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
Your spell doesn't have to start a combat. And there are ways to cast spells undetected.
I go in invisible and cast a silent "Drop init by 20" spell, then come back to my party and we bust the door down and his init is super low.
I'm a bard and have the feat to cast spells undetected as part of a performance. So as we're performing for the BBEG I cast the spell, then when we reach a certain part of the performance we jump out and attack.There, I just listed 2 ways to get the spell off before combat. I know that the surprise round has already had people roll init. Thus why I said before combat, not "in the surprise round" as I didn't mean in the surprise round, but in fact actually did mean what I said, Before Combat.
RAW, barring a bard ability and maybe a few very specific abilities, there is no way to cast a spell against someone undetected.
If there is only 1 person and he is affected by the spell it is possible that he can disregard the fact that he has been targeted (example, charm person), but invisibility don't stop you from being detected (BTW, I suppose you mean Improved Invisibility, invisibility break when you attack).
The rules don't have an option "attack with a spell and stay undetected".
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When is made the check to see if you are overloaded?Carry capacity isn't a check.
You mean this check:
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.I mean this kind of check.
check
to make an inquiry, investigation, etc., as for verification (often followed by up, into, etc.):
Probably I should have said "When you verify if you have exceeded your encumbrance capability?"
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There is much reading comprehension fail going on in this thread.This is still going on, and it's disturbing.
People are talking past one another. Slow down and read the thread before you post, and especially read the comments you're replying to.
The Original Poster asked if "Conditions", such as deafness, modified your Initiative order mid combat. They do not.
That does not mean your initiative order cannot change due to Delaying or taking a Readied Action.
Actions ≠ Conditions
After your Initiative check has been rolled and recorded, no condition will retroactively change that result. It doesn't matter if you're unconscious, have your Dexterity reduced, deafened, targeted with Unprepared Combatant, or any other condition that would modify one's Initiative check. The check has been rolled. Move on.
Obviously any of those conditions that are present before Initiative is rolled will affect your check, but none of them will modify a check you've already rolled.
I'm in complete agreement with Nefreet. Init penalties must already have existed pre-combat to be a factor.
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I'm in complete agreement with Nefreet. Init penalties must already have existed pre-combat to be a factor.There is much reading comprehension fail going on in this thread.This is still going on, and it's disturbing.
People are talking past one another. Slow down and read the thread before you post, and especially read the comments you're replying to.
The Original Poster asked if "Conditions", such as deafness, modified your Initiative order mid combat. They do not.
That does not mean your initiative order cannot change due to Delaying or taking a Readied Action.
Actions ≠ Conditions
After your Initiative check has been rolled and recorded, no condition will retroactively change that result. It doesn't matter if you're unconscious, have your Dexterity reduced, deafened, targeted with Unprepared Combatant, or any other condition that would modify one's Initiative check. The check has been rolled. Move on.
Obviously any of those conditions that are present before Initiative is rolled will affect your check, but none of them will modify a check you've already rolled.
So offensive abilities that impose them don't do anything as you can't use them without entering combat?
Diego, do you have an example of a specific ability that imposes an initiative penalty that can only be used after combat begins?
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Diego, do you have an example of a specific ability that imposes an initiative penalty that can only be used after combat begins?
One has already been cited several times in this thread:
Unprepared CombatantSchool enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesThe target takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks and Reflex saves.
It require a saving throw, so there is no question that it is an attack. To make an attack you must enter initiative.
If we apply your interpretation of the rules, the only way for this spell to work is to enter combat, cast it, then disengage completely to the point that subsequent encounters are a new event, Only at that point you would benefit from it.
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Here is another interesting example, an initiative bonus that disappear after the surprise round:
Sixth Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, the superstitious barbarian gains a +1 bonus on initiative and a +1 insight bonus to AC during surprise rounds. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
So the bonus to initiative and AC last for the surprise round only.
What happen when it end?
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So the bonus to initiative and AC last for the surprise round only.
What happen when it end?
The bonus to AC goes away, and the character remains at the same initiative count, as he has already completed the initiative check. (Although honestly, I read 'during surprise rounds' as only applying to '+1 insight bonus to AC', not to '+1 bonus on initiative'.)
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Yes, you would need to disengage from combat.
TriOmegaZero has the right of it.
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Diego, do you have an example of a specific ability that imposes an initiative penalty that can only be used after combat begins?One has already been cited several times in this thread:
Unprepared CombatantSchool enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesThe target takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks and Reflex saves.
It require a saving throw, so there is no question that it is an attack. To make an attack you must enter initiative.
If we apply your interpretation of the rules, the only way for this spell to work is to enter combat, cast it, then disengage completely to the point that subsequent encounters are a new event, Only at that point you would benefit from it.
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Here is another interesting example, an initiative bonus that disappear after the surprise round:
Sixth Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, the superstitious barbarian gains a +1 bonus on initiative and a +1 insight bonus to AC during surprise rounds. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.So the bonus to initiative and AC last for the surprise round only.
What happen when it end?
You have a very skewed idea of initiative and combat.
First, I asked for something that can only be cast during combat. There is nothing preventing you from casting that outside of combat or from having it penalize you in subsequent combats.
Second, it could be argued that "during surprise rounds" applies to the AC bonus, not the initiative bonus.
However, for the sake of argument lets assume that it applies to both. That would mean that if there is not a surprise round you do not get the bonus to initiative.
(Note: The way it is worded, to me, indicates that the initiative bonus applies all the time while it is the AC bonus that only applies during surprise rounds but I can see interpretations going either way.)
kyrt-ryder, you absolutely can do that. You can cast it while they are asleep or otherwise incapacitated. Initiative is the result of battle starting, if there is no start of battle then there is no initiative.
However, I do agree that, as written, it is a poor option for anyone and even a worse option for PCs but poor option spells in this game is a rather common phenomena. That does not change the game's core mechanics. (Ie: the existence of a particularly badly written spell does not change the rules.)
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The GM decides when combat starts. If I know a character is trying to use Unprepared Combatant on an enemy, it is well within my purview to start combat after the spell is resolved. I've done the same with charm person spells and the like.
As to Sixth Sense, if the initiative bonus is supposed to apply only in the surprise round then we need to submit a bug report to Wolf's Lair about HeroLab not making that distinction.
Minute/level duration is not specifically designed for single encounters. If it were a rounds/level spell I might be taking a longer, harder look at how I run initiative. But minutes/level can easily see you through 2+ encounters in some circumstances. If it were a buff spell you would see parties pushing on to get the benefit while it lasted. Casting this on a lightly buffed party might cause some tension on whether to let that and other buffs fall away or push on.
I'm in agreement with TOZ here, as per usual. The rules clearly state you make the check in the first round of combat and that is modified only by special initiative actions. This is strictest reading and also the easiest/most convenient for play, so I don't see a reason why you should rule it otherwise.
Of course, in home games one can rule however one wishes. It's not exactly game-breaking to allow for initative to be modified if you are willing to put up with the extra paperwork.... I just don't see the point, that's all.
casting a silent spell while invisible (probably) won't be spotted. You only break invisibility after the spell is resolved. If the creature considers the spell a hostile action, then combat begins. (btw, whether they get an additional surprise round is somewhat subject to table variation).
My normal handling of casting a offensive spell (silent or not) from invisibility would be:
Roll initiative.The invisible character gets a surprise round.
Continue from there - the victim can act in the first round of combat but can only act from the knowledge available at that point.
Only if the spell is one that the victim will be unaware of even after it takes effect would I consider ignoring initiative order.
If the party notice them teleporting in, that's the surprise round used up. If they don't, combat hasn't started yet and the demons can strike whenever they want.
-4 to Reflex saves isn't useless. Also a trap could apply that spell. Or hit and run tactics. Or an early mook. There are plenty of ways that initiative penalty can be meaningful even though it doesn't reorder combat after it has started.
Edit: plus, not all options are good. A spell not working with the mechanics are a reasonable argument the spell is not as intended, not that the mechanic works differently. For example, the original Prone Shooter feat that reduced a penalty that didn't exist.
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casting a silent spell while invisible (probably) won't be spotted. You only break invisibility after the spell is resolved. If the creature considers the spell a hostile action, then combat begins. (btw, whether they get an additional surprise round is somewhat subject to table variation).My normal handling of casting a offensive spell (silent or not) from invisibility would be:
Roll initiative.
The invisible character gets a surprise round.
Continue from there - the victim can act in the first round of combat but can only act from the knowledge available at that point.Only if the spell is one that the victim will be unaware of even after it takes effect would I consider ignoring initiative order.
So, excuse me, but does that mean that the +5 bonus to the save will always apply in your games when someone casts Charm Person?
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
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Matthew Downie:
That's one way I often see it run.
I also see the "Demons teleport in. The party is surprised. The demons now get a surprise round to attack."
If we used the logic you presented, the demons really shouldn't get a surprise round in addition to their (obviously hostile) act of teleporting in.
I wish it were consistent. Anyway, this is a bit off topic.
As you can't act after teleportation (unless you have the Dimensional Agility set of feats) the players giving it automatic surprise is simply wrong.
As most demons can't teleport other persons with them (they have a very limited mass that they can teleport with their SP ability) they rarely can carry passengers able to act in the surprise round.|
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casting a silent spell while invisible (probably) won't be spotted. You only break invisibility after the spell is resolved. If the creature considers the spell a hostile action, then combat begins. (btw, whether they get an additional surprise round is somewhat subject to table variation).My normal handling of casting a offensive spell (silent or not) from invisibility would be:
Roll initiative.
The invisible character gets a surprise round.
Continue from there - the victim can act in the first round of combat but can only act from the knowledge available at that point.Only if the spell is one that the victim will be unaware of even after it takes effect would I consider ignoring initiative order.
So, excuse me, but does that mean that the +5 bonus to the save will always apply in your games when someone casts Charm Person?
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
Currently apples from the moment of the attack is executed and resolved. So the first attempt to charm someone isn't penalized (unless you or your allies were threatening the target in some way).
Confusion share that problem and that interpretation of the rules, reading it otherwise would have the confused person always attack the caster, as he has just cast a offensive spell on the target.
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As you can't act after teleportationWait, what? That restriction is specific to Dimension Door.
Of course, I usually have the surprise round being the demons casting teleport, so it usually ends up preventing them from surprise actions anyway.
I was wrong. But it is a standard action (usually) so you can't attack unless you have quickened teleportation or you cast a quickened spell or have some attack that is a swift action.
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allowing changes to initiative mid combat can cause a bunch of "abusive" situations
as an example we have
Wizard 17
Cleric 16
Goblin 6
the wizard acts and does whatever, then the cleric casts a spell lowering the Wizard's initiative by 4. this would cause the wizard to get ANOTHER turn before the goblin. this doens't sit well with me, or the rules.
People are saying throw away the numbers in the sense that the numbers dictate the rotation, once the rotation is set the order is what's important.
and the only way to impact order is ready or delay actions. changing a character's dex score to change their order doesn't make sense. why would a quick agile character get a potential Second action in a round by suddenly becoming more clumsy?
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As you can't act after teleportationWait, what? That restriction is specific to Dimension Door.
Of course, I usually have the surprise round being the demons casting teleport, so it usually ends up preventing them from surprise actions anyway.
I was wrong. But it is a standard action (usually) so you can't attack unless you have quickened teleportation or you cast a quickened spell or have some attack that is a swift action.
i thought that was the whole discussion?
i mean:
demon spots through his scry a party of adventurers inside his dungeon.
he teleports in front of them.
The party didn't expect a demon being somewhere there.
Is the party surprised?
Does the demon gets a standard action to act?
Or is the surprise round just before he teleports, and how really does this works out?The reasonable way is to say that the party is surprised AFTER they see the demon, or else we have things like:
The demons spots the party
The diviner casts haste for some reason
The demon sees that in his scry and goes "huh? i better wait a miute or two"
The diviner goes "huh? why is nothing happenening? my spider senses told me a battle would occur in less than 3 secs"The other (more resonable imo) way to roll this initiative is:
The demons spot the party
The teleport in
The party gets to roll something (maybe reflex? will?)
The diviner and all those who sucedded on the roll get to act in the surprise round, which starts now.
I would treat the demon as getting a surprise round with the full initiative being rolled at the start of the next round.
I view this the same as the characters not knowing an action is taking place. why would a character get a +5 on charm if someone casts it while being hidden. the character is unaware until the effect resolves so they get no save until afterward.
It's a similar concept that the party has no prior knowledge that the demon exists or is aware of their presence so they get no save against an "attack" (baring specific magicks or whatnot).
But you can only act once per round, so even if the cleric did lower the Wizards initiative, he's already acted this round, he'll just be at the initiative next round.