1. No the Esoteric was not optimized. It was basic for the archetype. The archetype itself simply is not a cookie cutter Magus.
2. Str based Bladebound doesn't keep up for free. It does at the cost of 1 feat and many extra pool points, pearls, and is limited to a few encounters per day.
3. A Dex based BladeBounds must spend 3 feats to keep up in addition to the other str magus costs.
4. Before 13th lvl the Esoteric is still does more damage against a broader range of targets than a BB but the difference is small enough to call it a wash. After lvl 13 the BB gets left behind.
5. You do realize that Natural Attacks stack with iterative attacks and that includes twf. It was intentionally left out because it speaks to a very specific build rather than general numbers. Your argument for Monstrous P. further works in favor of Esoteric.Those are the facts. Whether it is "top-notch" I guess will vary from player to player.
At what level would you like a comprehensive comparison using fully stated out characters?
At what level would you like a comprehensive comparison using fully stated out characters?
Really depends on the story you want to tell.
1.Esoteric has the advantage.5.Bladebound has a slight edge.
10.Things are fairly even with Esoteric pulling ahead vs crit immune.
15.It is all Esoteric once bane blade, 6 iteratives, and huge size opens up
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At what level would you like a comprehensive comparison using fully stated out characters?
Please take this to another thread. Several people have indicated they have had quite enough of this nitpicking on a poorly designed archetype. Thank you.
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Just to answer the question of whether a Blade Bound is top notch. I have a strength blade bound magus in PFS built using this guide for guidance I am thoroughly enjoying. Having fun is more important than DPR.
Thank you :)
Would any of the advanced armor or weapon training be of good use for the magus? I think maybe armor specialization for heavy armor magi.
Ah, there's an interesting question. As some good choices, Focused Weapon provides a decent damage boost at level 15 and up, Warrior Spirit lets you use Bane at level 11, and Armored Juggernaut gives you DR from level 7. This also opens up the Difficult Swings and Smash from the Air feats.
If allowed, variant multiclassing is a cheaper and easier way of getting these than the myrm, which is another archetype with more drawbacks than it's worth.
Not related to the above (I think): Here's a question I've been wondering about for a while: Any good way to leverage high Wisdom on a Magus, other than the obvious
And since this wasn't really answered yet: dip one level into inquisitor to add your wisdom to monster knowledge checks and to social skills (via various inquisitions); a second level adds it to init. Knowledge/memory domain is also decent. Or, dip two levels into sacred fist warpriest to get wisdom to AC, as well as fervor ability. Combine with fortune's favor trait and divine favor. Also, there's the wisdom in the flesh trait.
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Would any of the advanced armor or weapon training be of good use for the magus? I think maybe armor specialization for heavy armor magi.Ah, there's an interesting question. As some good choices, Focused Weapon provides a decent damage boost at level 15 and up, Warrior Spirit lets you use Bane at level 11, and Armored Juggernaut gives you DR from level 7. This also opens up the Difficult Swings and Smash from the Air feats.
If allowed, variant multiclassing is a cheaper and easier way of getting these than the myrm, which is another archetype with more drawbacks than it's worth.
I wouldn't try to argue that Myrmidarch is a top-notch archetype, but it has potential, especially for campaigns that mainly exist in PFS levels. Specifically, it gets you Weapon Training 5 levels earlier (level 6) than VMC Fighter (level 11), and it DOESN'T eat half your feats from character leveling (which, due to Magus Bonus Feats, is less than half your total feats, but still an awful lot -- to be exact, 3 in the PFS zone). Keep in mind that the first of the feats that it eats goes to Bravery, which is good to have from the start if you are a Mindblade Magus (Occult casting with Emotion Components being inactivated by fear), but otherwise doesn't get good (unless you are in a really fear-heavy campaign) until you get Weapon Training so that you can get Armed Bravery, or alternatively you spend yet another feat to get Improved Bravery (which can be gotten early, but also requires that you pump Charisma to 13). VMC Fighter is good if you are in for the really long haul, but in PFS or Council of Thieves, it just isn't going to fit, whereas Myrmidarch Magus does fit, even though trading out Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall (for Ranged Spellstrike that itself requires investment to make good) is really annoying, as is Diminished Spellcasting.
Also, if you want a concept like the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter, but you wnat it to actually work (even if not being the greatest), play a Myrmidarch Magus instead.
Not related to the above (I think): Here's a question I've been wondering about for a while: Any good way to leverage high Wisdom on a Magus, other than the obviousAnd since this wasn't really answered yet: dip one level into inquisitor to add your wisdom to monster knowledge checks and to social skills (via various inquisitions); a second level adds it to init. Knowledge/memory domain is also decent. Or, dip two levels into sacred fist warpriest to get wisdom to AC, as well as fervor ability. Combine with fortune's favor trait and divine favor. Also, there's the wisdom in the flesh trait.
Thanks for the tips, but I can't find a Fortune's Favor trait (tried Paizo PRD, Archives of Nethys, and www.d20pfsrd.com). Given what the Divine Favor spell does, am I guessing right that this was supposed to be Fate's Favored?
Incidentally, While checking this out, I just noticed that Wisdom in the Flesh (which I had forgotten about) says "Benefits: Select any Strength-, Constitution-, or Dexterity-based skill. You may make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of the skill’s normal ability score. That skill is always a class skill for you." Nitpick: Pathfinder PRG doesn't have any Constitution-based skills. This trait was introduced approximately 4 years after Pathfinder RPG hit release with no Constitution-based skills . . . .
And now another question that seems relevant to this thread (except that it actually has its own thread already, but no sure answer as yet): How does Pool Ray work with Ranged Spellstrike (and does this actually do anything reasonably useful for you)?
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I'd be tempted to say a one level dip into dawnflower dervish to get dervish dance at level 1, a caster level, good will and reflex save, and even if its only for a few rounds, a decent self buff that's a move action, so you can spend the first round after level one doing the following
That's a decent buff; you'll probably want the Lingering Performance feat with that. Note that you can do the same with bloodrager as a free action, with the Mad Magic feat.
I wouldn't try to argue that Myrmidarch is a top-notch archetype, but it has potential, especially for campaigns that mainly exist in PFS levels. Specifically, it gets you Weapon Training 5 levels earlier (level 6) than VMC Fighter (level 11), and it DOESN'T eat half your feats from character leveling
I'm not saying it has no potential, just that it gives up too much for its benefits :) The myrm does eat half your arcana slots, which are the equivalent of feats, plus spell recall, plus spell slots; so it's fair to say that VMC is the cheaper option.
What the myrm gets at level 6 is merely a +1 to hit, that's not at all interesting. What you actually want is the advanced weapon training options, and those require level 9. This means that in PFS levels, myrm is not so great.
am I guessing right that this was supposed to be Fate's Favored?
Yes, that's the one I meant.
How does Pool Ray work with Ranged Spellstrike (and does this actually do anything reasonably useful for you)?
Wow, talk about confusing wording! What I think is meant is that it allows you to shoot your bow and attach both a spell and the pool ray simultaneously. Given the cost involved this is a pretty bad ability.
However, your interpretation is also possible, i.e. that you can use a standard action to fire a pool ray and attach a spell to that. Since the myrm's ranged spellstrike already requires a ranged touch spell, the ability basically means "all your RT spells deal +1d6 damage", which again is pretty bad. However, the eldritch archer's ranged spellstrike works on any ranged attack spell, so this would let an EA use ranged spells as RT spells. Now that sounds pretty cool, but it turns out there aren't any good spells to use it with, so once again this is pretty bad.
Empower doesn't add damage dice, correct?
Empower doesn't add damage dice, correct?
correct, just multiplies the total damage by 1.5
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I wouldn't try to argue that Myrmidarch is a top-notch archetype, but it has potential, especially for campaigns that mainly exist in PFS levels. Specifically, it gets you Weapon Training 5 levels earlier (level 6) than VMC Fighter (level 11), and it DOESN'T eat half your feats from character levelingI'm not saying it has no potential, just that it gives up too much for its benefits :) The myrm does eat half your arcana slots, which are the equivalent of feats, plus spell recall, plus spell slots; so it's fair to say that VMC is the cheaper option.
What the myrm gets at level 6 is merely a +1 to hit, that's not at all interesting. What you actually want is the advanced weapon training options, and those require level 9. This means that in PFS levels, myrm is not so great.
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Some other things that require Weapon Training might be usable earler -- I haven't done an exhaustive check. But needing level 9 gives you 3X more of your career than needing level 11. BUT . . . the big thing that I forgot to say last time is that last time I checked, PFS doesn't allow you to use VMC Fighter at all.
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Empower doesn't add damage dice, correct?
No, but if you feel like rolling lots of dice, feel free to tell your GM that 15d6 gives pretty much the same results as 10d6 x 1.5 (same average, lower stddev).
true but you have to use a feat with bloodrager to still spell combat whereas with the dervish dawnflower dip, you don't have to worry about it, and you get more mileage out of it being an eldritch scion
That's the tradeoff - bloodrager has to spend a feat, dervish has to spend a move action to activate the buff. Both work well with eldritch scion.
the big thing that I forgot to say last time is that last time I checked, PFS doesn't allow you to use VMC Fighter at all.
That's correct. However, PFS also doesn't allow the main benefits of Advanced Weapon Training (strong choices like Focused Weapon, Warrior Spirit, and Smash from the Air are all unavailable in PFS). So I maintain that myrm + PFS is not such a great combo - although it's by no means utterly worthless like certain other archetypes, looking at you Greensting.
Your GM may not allow that as it's from RoTRL according to Nethys. It's not a terrible feat but I doubt it's worth taking on a Magus, now Risky Striker on the other hand is (as the guide notes) although you've got to be a halfling.
^Big Game Hunter is also D&D 3.5 but not Pathfinder RPG.
WOW! This is the most comprehensive guide for any class I have seen so far. Congrats Kurald and thanks for pointing me to this guide.
Two minor points on familiars:
1) The figment familiar allows to add "Reach" for 1 eidolon evolution point to ANY familiar with an adequate attack form so that means that ANY familiar can flank (not only small size familiars) which is great because you can now also send utility familiars into combat as the figment does not "die" permanently. I believe this option should be blue - even more blue considering the eidolon versitility. I also believe it should be separated from the Sage as an individual option as a magus with high INT does not really benefit that much from a sage familiar but more from a familiar that shares its skills.
2) The Compsognathus also offers 'Improved Initiative' (should be blue similar to Dodo etc.) based on your current evaluation.
Thanks
noral
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Though the Charisma prerequisite is painful (except for eldritch scions), the Shapechanger bloodline is fantastic for the magus. In particular, with Improved Eldritch Heritage you can get a transmutation spell to last 12 hours starting at 11th level; in addition to the obvious benefits (more efficient use of spells per day, better action economy at the start of a fight), this allows half-elves to use paragon surge during downtime to get any item creation feat they want all day.
Empower doesn't add damage dice, correct?correct, just multiplies the total damage by 1.5
I thought I'd double check the FAQ hadn't changed since a few instances in the Doc seemed to indicate it did.
The Spontaneous Metafocus feat.
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The Spontaneous Metafocus feat.Thanks - that was precisely what I was looking for!
The build is to combine antipaladins aura of cowardice with a debuffer intimidate eldrich scion using rime spell metamagic with frostbite and enforcer feat.
If you use a spell storing weapon - would you only get one use of frost bite or would you get to use it as normaly cast (1 use/per level) ?
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Thanks for the suggestions!
Shapechanger bloodline looks interesting. I'm currently checking if there's other sorc bloodlines worth the Heritage feat line. Note that the eldritch scion has wording that if you have two bloodlines, they must match (meaning they cannot use this one).
Nimble armor is a good find. Nimble elven chain is +5 AC / +6 dex, and is a lot cheaper than celestial armor (+4 AC / +8 dex). I don't think that a silk bodysuit is compatible with a material that requires leather, fur, or hide, though.
Big Game Hunter is from such an unlikely sourcebook that I don't think it's worth listing.
Compsog isn't listed because (as for feats and spells) the point of the guide isn't to list every single one in existence, but rather to show a variety of good choices and useful options. If you want to flank with your familiar, why not take one that is small rather than tiny? I'm not sure what you mean by an "utility familiar".
^I don't think Eldritch Heritage counts as an actual Bloodline for the purposes of Bloodline compatibility -- meaning that a Sorcerer or Bloodrager (and presumably Eldritch Scion Magus) can take Eldritch Heritage of anything they want (except explicitly not a Bloodline that they already have, and implicitly not a Bloodline created by an archetype, including Wildblooded); in some cases, this is better than either one going Crossblooded. A Shapechanger Bloodrager Bloodline does exist, but it doesn't do what you want (and would be the one thing blocking you from taking Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger).
I wish a Charisma-based Spontaneous-casting Magus archetype existed that was different from Eldritch Scion, starting with using a Sorcerer Bloodline instead of a Bloodrager Bloodline . . . .
Any way to overcome full round casting of spells with meta magic feats with eldrich scions archtype besides meta magic rods?
It makes spellcombat almost irrelevant for this archtype.
For a spontaneous caster, even rods cause you to take a full round action to use.
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For a spontaneous caster, even rods cause you to take a full round action to use.Any way to overcome full round casting of spells with meta magic feats with eldrich scions archtype besides meta magic rods?
It makes spellcombat almost irrelevant for this archtype.
You are right - dont know where I got that idea from.
The traits Mock Gladiator and Merciful Scimitar work well for an Enforcer based magus build. Especially so with Merciful Scimitar since you can pair it with Bruising Intellect and since the scimitar is already a good weapon for a magus.
^Weird -- we used to have a Paizo D&D 3.5 trait (Blade of Mercy, Religion, from Legacy of Fire) that did the same thing (actually significantly more) as Merciful Scimitar, but then Sarenrae's Divine Fighting Technique (Sarenrae's Mercy) came out, and so I thought the old trait was just obsolete -- but now it has a direct replacement (except it is a Combat trait instead of a Religion trait, and doesn't give you a bonus, and only works with scimitars instead of with all slashing weapons).
Do you plan to add additional model builds to the mindblade and puppetmaster?
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A good bloodline for heritage feats would be orcs for STR magi as they get a free bonus to STR every couple of levels
At first glance it looks good. At second glance, you're spending three feats (and a lot of points in charisma) to get a total of +3 to hit and to damage, which is frankly not all that great. By the time this bonus comes into play, you should be able to afford a tome of +Str which doesn't stack with this bloodline.
The traits Mock Gladiator and Merciful Scimitar work well for an Enforcer based magus build.
Fair point, although if you're casting Frostbite (which is the to-go spell for that build) then you don't need the trait.
Do you plan to add additional model builds to the mindblade and puppetmaster?
I'm not planning on extra builds for new archetypes. However, the first build (Assault Magus) should work pretty well with mindblade instead of bladebound, and the third build (Controller Magus) could replace eldritch scion by puppetmaster.
A good bloodline for heritage feats would be orcs for STR magi as they get a free bonus to STR every couple of levelsAt first glance it looks good. At second glance, you're spending three feats (and a lot of points in charisma) to get a total of +3 to hit and to damage, which is frankly not all that great.
To be fair, for those 3 feats you also end up with touch of rage 4 times per day (assuming 13 CHA) and skill focus (survival), not just the ÷3 to hit and damage. Granted, the latter seems to be an oft ignored skill, and touch of rage costs a standard action, but even the 3 combat feats weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and weapon specialization only provide +2 hit and damage.
The manuals/tomes are problematic as well. First, you'll only get +3 to hit and damage If you are on an odd stat number to start with (using a +5 book). That book likewise costs 137,500 GP, with no real reduction from crafting. If your GM follows the economy rules, you simply won't be able to buy one - anywhere, and it will take over 4 months to craft. Since the books dont stack, and you want the +5 version, you arent crafting it till 17th level, either. This means you won't get the STR benefits from 9th level on (or whenever you take the improved version).
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even the 3 combat feats weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and weapon specialization only provide +2 hit and damage.
Yes, and the point is that these three are just not very good feats. You basically don't need weapon focus on any build except perhaps as a prerequisite. For that matter, +Str Tomes aren't great either; you get those when you really have nothing else to do with your money.
This means you won't get the STR benefits from 9th level on (or whenever you take the improved version).
The improved version of the feat requires level 11 (not 9) and getting the +3 bonus requires level nineteen. Most campaigns won't ever get that high, but if you do, this is a level where Greater Heroism should be a common buff, and you can use spell combat with Cosmic Ray or Disintegrate. +3 to damage rather pales in comparison to that.
Importantly, taking 15 charisma instead of 8 costs about half of your point buy. You get much better results (starting from level one) if you put those points literally anywhere else.
Yes, and the point is that these three are just not very good feats. You basically don't need weapon focus on any build except perhaps as a prerequisite.
I wasn't saying they were good, just that they are significantly better than that plus additional capabilities.
For that matter, +Str Tomes aren't great either; you get those when you really have nothing else to do with your money.
Unless you have a GM that plants them, you aren't getting them at all, which is why they weren't a very good counter argument in the first place.
The improved version of the feat requires level 11 (not 9) and getting the +3 bonus requires level nineteen. Most campaigns won't ever get that high, but if you do, this is a level where Greater Heroism should be a common buff, and you can use spell combat with Cosmic Ray or Disintegrate. +3 to damage rather pales in comparison to that.
True on greater heroism and level requirements, which pretty much negates touch of rage, bit still leaves you with the benefits over a longer period. As for cosmic ray and disintegrate, you arent necessarly giving that up, so it's not really a counter.
Importantly, taking 15 charisma instead of 8 costs about half of your point buy. You get much better results (starting from level one) if you put those points literally anywhere else.
This is arguably the best argument against the tactic - an already MAD class leaves little room for the points in CHA. However, I would think you'd only go to 13 at first, adding later level bonuses to get to 15.
It's still not the best, even with a race that'll get you that 15 at level one. My Arcanist used it, but I was also throwing in bonuses from Dragon Disciple too. I also didn't need many feats.
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I wasn't saying they were good,
Ok, then we're agreed on that.
This is arguably the best argument against the tactic - an already MAD class leaves little room for the points in CHA. However, I would think you'd only go to 13 at first, adding later level bonuses to get to 15.
If you use your level bonuses on that, you're getting two points less in strength, which negates the point of taking this bloodline.
I've checked other bloodlines and none of them look appealing to a Magus, except the aforementioned shapeshifter, and ghoul's claws. Even with a poor DC, adding a free paralyze to all your attacks seems like a good deal.
I have to wonder, since Eldritch Scion gets Bloodrager, if we'll ever see a feat line like Eldritch Heritage. It could give you rounds per day you can use the bloodline abilities but not give you actual Bloodrage.
Is there any way to get non-lethal onto your weapon?
Is there any way to get non-lethal onto your weapon?
Is there any way to get non-lethal onto your weapon?MERCIFUL WEAPON?
Yes, that's the one.
{Deleted due to being super-Ninja'd in the Hammer Magus thread.}
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Is there any way to get non-lethal onto your weapon?MERCIFUL WEAPON?
Yeah, I'll add that to the entry for the Enforcer feat. You arguably don't need it since you're using Frostbite, but +1d6 damage remains useful.
Well Darkleaf Cloth came out before that silk suit, and leather and hide are natural materials, so it could be ruled that silk being a natural material could be affected by the darkleaf cloth
Darkleaf cloth explicitly states that it requires "leather, fur, or hide"; not "any natural material". Silk is not leather, fur, or hide; and silk armor has been in the game since 2011. So yeah, not going to fly.