I wanted to ask everyones opinion about the inclusion of Iconics in the class decks. I know that awhile ago it was discussed why the Iconics were included using Star wars as an example(could you have a jedi class deck without Luke Skywalker?)and I get that. However the Iconics are included in the base sets so you do already get at least one, and personally as a home player I'm never going to use 3 Linis. Now that we're down to 3 characters per class deck instead of 4, I (in my personal opinion) would rather see that 3rd slot be taken up by a new character,not just a mechanically different version of an already existing one. I know this might be a different matter for those who participate in OP and want to use an Iconic for that purpose,and I'm sure that there are home players who like the using a tweaked Iconic.That said, I'm curious to see where the home players and OPers stand on this matter.
I think with good design, it's not a problem - I played RotR Kyra through the first AP, my wife played class-deck Kyra through SotS, and I'm playing WotR Kyra through Wrath. All feel sufficiently different to be worth playing (although it sucks to be class-deck Kyra with such limited access to swords).
The only other cleric i've played is the Arcane/Nethys one. Not interested in the others at all.
I can see why those with lots of core sets might not want ANOTHER version of an iconic, but for those without it just doesn't make sense from a Paizo perspective.
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Since the OP requires the use of Class Decks, it does make sense that the Iconics are included in the Class decks as you couldn't use them otherwise.
Personally, I don't really care about who they are, I care about what they do. The crunch is what's important to me, not the fluff.
...Well, I say that, but I think that Razz and the Goblins are just awesome, so there's that. Which I guess means I'm slightly in favor of newer characters so I can see more cool stuff like Razz. But it still takes a backseat to the skills, powers, and decklists on the cards (and Cohorts! I LOVE character-specific Cohorts).
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I can understand why you'd want that as a home player since you have the Iconic character in other sets. But as a person that runs multiple groups each week, I have only two people that have base sets. The others bring their class deck and that's it.
I'd prefer that everyone is exposed to the iconic character in the class decks.
Plus the iconic in the class deck is very different from the ones in base sets. And that can be instrumental. I've played three different Harsks and they are not equal and have different strategies. So just because you have 2 Linis, they are not the same Lini, and the Lini in the class deck isn't the same either. It's just the name and background that's the same.
I'd rather see three new characters, but I completely understand wanting to have the iconics be iconic.
Since the OP requires the use of Class Decks, it does make sense that the Iconics are included in the Class decks as you couldn't use them otherwise.
You can use any character with the same class as your Class Deck, notably the versions of the iconics in the base sets. (Page 7 of the Guide to PFS ACG OP 2.1.)
Some of the Iconics have plenty of versions available for Guild play, so download their character sheets and have at it! :)
Except some of the iconics from base sets don't play well for other sets.
True, but not all of the Class Deck characters play well in their Class Deck or in some base sets either. Having options isn't a bad thing, even if not all of those options are optimal.
Just to clarify, I know why the system is the way it is and how it works mechanically,I'm sure it's not going to change and I'm not looking to have it changed.I'm just throwing out my opinion and curious as to what other's personal feelings are ; ).
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I will say that, as the Class Decks are needed for OP, that it is more important that they be built for that than home games. Many, many OP players are only going to have class decks, so the iconics existing in base sets doesn't help them at all.
As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)
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I will say that, as the Class Decks are needed for OP, that it is more important that they be built for that than home games. Many, many OP players are only going to have class decks, so the iconics existing in base sets doesn't help them at all.
As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)
I think your auto-correct ate Ezren.
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I played the RPG first, so I have a pretty big attachment to the iconics. And I like seeing the different versions of the same character. I like seeing the Raz's of the world, but when I get my paladin class deck, I'm going to be playing my favorite Seelah yet.
And I have a couple of players that play Pathfinder and were excited to play Seelah and Lini when the class decks come out.
As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)
Eaten's had plenty of time in the sun. If there's a Wizard Deck 2, I demand a new Radillo!
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As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)Eaten's had plenty of time in the sun. If there's a Wizard Deck 2, I demand a new Radillo!
Eaten turned cannibal and ate Radillo with a side of radicchio and a light vinaigrette.
Eaten turned cannibal and ate Radillo with a side of radicchio and a light vinaigrette.As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)Eaten's had plenty of time in the sun. If there's a Wizard Deck 2, I demand a new Radillo!
Radillo tried to manipulate Eaten's mind, but the hunger instinct was too strong.
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Radillo tried to manipulate Eaten's mind, but the hunger instinct was too strong.Eaten turned cannibal and ate Radillo with a side of radicchio and a light vinaigrette.As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)Eaten's had plenty of time in the sun. If there's a Wizard Deck 2, I demand a new Radillo!
His zombification made him immune to the mental trait. :(
RIP Red Lettuce. :( :( :( :(
RIP Red Lettuce.
This is the first step to making coleslaw
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As much as I'd prefer 3 new characters to 2, I very much believe the iconics should be in the Class deck every time, including if a class deck gets a second version (for example, a Wizard 2 Deck would have Eaten and 2 new wizards, not that I think that's likely)Eaten's had plenty of time in the sun. If there's a Wizard Deck 2, I demand a new Radillo!
Radillo isn't even anybody, just another random NPC given a build for PACG. Ezren is the Pathfinder wizard. Gotta be there always for mini products like these.
Man did my autocorrect derail the living hell out of this thread lol.
Man did my autocorrect derail the living hell out of this thread lol.
Awesomely so.
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I still don't understand why they call it autocorrect. It seems like more often than not it is autoincorrect.
Radillo isn't even anybody, just another random NPC given a build for PACG. Ezren is the Pathfinder wizard. Gotta be there always for mini products like these.
Speaking as someone who only experiences Pathfinder through the card game, Ezren is some white-haired, beard wizard nerd you could find in any old fantasy setting and Radillo is the dandy fop overflowing with stylish ally acquisition, redolent of graceful deck cycling, who's claimed the keys to my heart (& wallet, should she end up in Wizard Deck 2 :D)
I like having iconics in the class decks. I know some people may feel different, but I actually want that second or third version of the characters! I'm especially ecstatic about getting two new versions of Damiel around the same time!
Possibly interesting perspective: I was a Pathfinder RPG fan first. However, when I began playing the game, coming from D&D 3.5 play, I was a pure homebrew world player. I had next to zero interest in Pathfinder's Golarion world. The setting books and adventure paths weren't anywhere on my radar; I'd rather discover or create original worlds to play in. Exposure to the card game changed that for me. I started getting interested in these iconic characters that used to be nothing more than artwork in rule books to me and I got interested in the setting. As the Advanced Class Guide was getting ready to come out, I was reading every Meet the Iconics blog that was released and began reading the old entries for the rest of the characters. Now I'm running Jade Regent for my gaming group pretty much by the book with them using iconics as their characters (Harsk, Kyra, Merisiel and Valeros). I'm falling in love with Golarion as a setting. Paizo has expanded my interest in their RPG products with their card game. I don't know if many other people have had similar experiences, but it felt like a very natural transition for me.
Actually I am uncertain on that issue.
My first reaction when Paizo decided to re-use the same iconics with different stats was to be disappointed because that created confusion and they lost the opportunity to "flavor" more each character.
Now on the "plus" side... I get to re-use my minis more easily.
Bottom line, if I was to be head of Marketing at Paizo (good news for all of you, won't happen in any near future :-)), I would never have re-used an iconic, but I would have only issued characters for which there was already a Pathfinder Battle mini available.
But that's just me...
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Besides an avid RPGer, I collect comics.
When Rise of the Runelords came out, the comics started approximately the same time. I, too, knew of the iconics but never as living characters in stories. We never played APs and never played pre-gens. But in the comics, Valeros, Seoni and Merisiel became alive. They unfolded a story from the beginning of the Rise of the Runelords. They introduced Ezren and Harsk and Kyra. Lini and others. They grew in depth and I lent the comics to friends so they, too, could see the iconics like I did. And it gave a new layer to the card game and the characters we were playing.
Thanks so much to everyone who has answered so far. I think more than anything I wanted to see if group opinion was that the iconics should be included simply because they're the iconics, or that the players actually had a connection to them. I guess having never read the comics and never getting to know more about the iconics then is written in their origin blogs I never really got attached to any of them. Don't get me wrong, I have played some of them, and will continue to in the future, but for some reason I have more loyalty towards the new class deck characters who at one time were just random(and I assume in some cases nameless) NPCs. I was hoping asking for everyone's opinion might give me an answer, that someone else might have a similar opinion. I think where I'm at now( and bear with me on this) is that the iconics are in and on so much that I guess I just like to see some of the minor characters who have existed in books as a foot note or paragraph get some of the spotlight for awhile. But again, that's just my opinion, I'm not looking for things to change, just wanted to see what the community was thinking. Thank you all so much for your honest input so far ; ).
P.S. to the team,
Please keep surprise characters like Arueshalae coming ; ).
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'm fine with having the Iconics in the class decks, for reasons everyone has already mentioned.
But when they make Fighter Class Deck 2 (or whatever it's called) I don't want another Valeros in there.
I agree with this. That's probably a ways off, though, presuming we get all classes before they would start going to Fighter "2" and so forth. We have, what, 37 base classes right now? So if class decks are released 1/month, we're looking at September 2018 before they've made one for every class available right now, longer if you take into account classes that will come out between now and then...
And longer if they want to make Class Decks for non-Pathfinder classes like the Spy, Raider or Cutpurse.
And longer if they want to make Class Decks for non-Pathfinder classes like the Spy, Raider or Cutpurse.
FWIW, Spy is the Master Spy prestige class. (Arueshalae has levels in it in the RPG.)
As already mentioned, though, there's so many base classes they can use for making class decks that I doubt we'd see these. For Guild play they might as well stick with letting you use them with a closely-related deck, like you already can with Jirelle, Enora, and Arueshalae.
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And Cutpurse is a Rouge Archetype.
But I wouldn't necessarily put it past them to surprise us and dip into non-standard classes, especially considering the reports that they have a history of breaking patters. They gave us the featured iconic for each adventure path. Until they didn't with Merisiel in WotR. They gave us only 11 characters with each adventure path. Until they added an unlockable character in WotR. They gave us only iconic characters with each adventure path. Until (if the reports are accurate) they don't with Mummy's Mask. So I wouldn't put it past the folks at Paizo and LSG to put out a Class Deck that represents a non-standard class once they've got a few of the standards out.
Besides an avid RPGer, I collect comics.
When Rise of the Runelords came out, the comics started approximately the same time. I, too, knew of the iconics but never as living characters in stories. We never played APs and never played pre-gens. But in the comics, Valeros, Seoni and Merisiel became alive. They unfolded a story from the beginning of the Rise of the Runelords. They introduced Ezren and Harsk and Kyra. Lini and others. They grew in depth and I lent the comics to friends so they, too, could see the iconics like I did. And it gave a new layer to the card game and the characters we were playing.
I have been curious about the comics Theryon, would you recommend them? Are they very gory and or crude? I saw what I think was a part of one( Amiri making one person into twins) and I wasn't sure if they'd be for me. I have read some of the old D&D comics, If you're familiar with those would you say that they are similar?
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I actually never read the old D&D comics. The Pathfinder ones are definitely written and drawn for adults (not kids). I've read (and collected) all of the Pathfinder ones since the beginning. I highly recommend them if you want more depth into the iconic characters and some of their story. You learn about Ezren's motivation to become a Pathfinder. Harsk's view as an outsider to Dwarven culture (he's a ranger!) And the others. And if you played Rise of the Runelords, you'll see the beginning adventure in a more personal viewpoint ... through the eyes of the iconics.
They're gory when they have to be ... goblin fighting is a messy business. But not crude. I like the artwork overall. And Amiri is a barbarian with rage tendencies ... people get separated from themselves. Is that worse than watching Doom snap Cyclops's neck? I don't think so.
As I posted above, I've lent them to friends and they enjoyed them. The Goblin ones are very interesting, too. And Origins.
If you're going to pick them up, Dark Waters series then Of Tooth and Claw series, then the Special #1, then City of Secrets. And so on. The special is part of the storyline.
I see, so there's backstory to be had across the entire series, not just origins? Or is origins more like the meetings series of dragon lance books where it's more about the origin of how the iconics came together?
Would it be I'll advised to begin with Origins?
Since the OP requires the use of Class Decks, it does make sense that the Iconics are included in the Class decks as you couldn't use them otherwise.
That's untrue
A class deck can support any character of that class
(Edit)
I see that was already stated. Sorry for being late to the autocorrect party!
My personal opinion is that the iconics should mainly be in the base sets. The class decks should add flavor
Having said that I do like using the iconics minis, so I won't be terribly put out by repeated versions of the usual suspects
Depends on what you mean by "support". WotR Kyra's deck has few enough attack spells that she gets very annoyed - after Holy Light (admittedly closer to a 2 in power level than a B) her next Attack spell is a 5! Her Strength is so low (and unenhanceable) that it's fairly unreliable in terms of Fighting capability.
The Sorcerer class deck doesn't have any Acid spells, so Elemental Master Seoni is sad that she only gets to play with 3 of the 4 elements (although she does have a Power Feat to take care of that).
The Bard deck doesn't have Blessing of Shelyn in them, so RotR Lem can't use that power without bumping into those Blessings during a game.
What I mean by support is if I have a fighter character, I can use that character with the fighter class deck if I so desire
I was making no comment on the utility of what is within the class decks :)
Depends on what you mean by "support". WotR Kyra's deck has few enough attack spells that she gets very annoyed - after Holy Light (admittedly closer to a 2 in power level than a B) her next Attack spell is a 5! Her Strength is so low (and unenhanceable) that it's fairly unreliable in terms of Fighting capability.
The Sorcerer class deck doesn't have any Acid spells, so Elemental Master Seoni is sad that she only gets to play with 3 of the 4 elements (although she does have a Power Feat to take care of that).
The Bard deck doesn't have Blessing of Shelyn in them, so RotR Lem can't use that power without bumping into those Blessings during a game.
I'm playing WoTR Kyra in OP right now; i'm guessing the mid Adventure Decks will be on the painful side, but i'll report my experiences.
In WoTR, Lighting is a pretty poor choice, too. Good thing Cold (and Fire) are reasonable enough choices
As for the Bard deck, I'm more surprised that there's no blessing that helps a non-combat Charisma check than I am about the absence of the Blessing of Shelyn, but I guess both are notable omissions.
As for the Bard deck, I'm more surprised that there's no blessing that helps a non-combat Charisma check than I am about the absence of the Blessing of Shelyn, but I guess both are notable omissions.
On the flip side, Bards get a Ruby of Charisma. My Amaryllis would rather have that than a Blessing of Iomedae or a Crown of Charisma. (Or Boots of Elvenkind or Ivory Dice or Caltrops or the Blast Stone or...)
As for the Bard deck, I'm more surprised that there's no blessing that helps a non-combat Charisma check than I am about the absence of the Blessing of Shelyn, but I guess both are notable omissions.On the flip side, Bards get a Ruby of Charisma. My Amaryllis would rather have that than a Blessing of Iomedae or a Crown of Charisma. (Or Boots of Elvenkind or Ivory Dice or Caltrops or the Blast Stone or...)
Yeah, it's a matter of public record that the Sorceror's item options are... lackluster. Thankfully, items are the most common Loot types, and both the Season of the Shackles and the Season of the Righteous provide plentiful Loot options to replace Sorceror deck items. And eventually you will get to your Headband of Inspiring Charisma...
Depends on what you mean by "support". WotR Kyra's deck has few enough attack spells that she gets very annoyed - after Holy Light (admittedly closer to a 2 in power level than a B) her next Attack spell is a 5! Her Strength is so low (and unenhanceable) that it's fairly unreliable in terms of Fighting capability.
The Sorcerer class deck doesn't have any Acid spells, so Elemental Master Seoni is sad that she only gets to play with 3 of the 4 elements (although she does have a Power Feat to take care of that).
The Bard deck doesn't have Blessing of Shelyn in them, so RotR Lem can't use that power without bumping into those Blessings during a game.
Yeah, but being one of the characters in the class deck puts you no better off. look at poor Zarlova.
WotR Kyra's ... Strength is so low (and unenhanceable) that it's fairly unreliable in terms of Fighting capability.
But sometimes she can come through in a pinch. Last night in OP FWB's WotR Kyra threw her +1 mace at the final villain in 1-1E for the win. Rolled a 20 against a 13 check.
Yeah, but being one of the characters in the class deck puts you no better off. look at poor Zarlova.
I really want to give Zarlova a try in Wrath - being able to get hold of Blessings of Nethys early has potential to make her a real beast (and plenty of decent Divine attack spells to use)
Zarlova does feel like she'd make good use of some Life Drains and Fiery Glares, doesn't she?