Why all the nerfs Paizo?

[Azten]

N. Jolly wrote:

The base of this game is 3.5, so we won't have true balance unless we completely rewrite all spells, and I'm not expecting that. But more consideration to the new material added (I don't mind new material being more tame myself) would go a long way towards giving a reason to pick up these products instead of saying "I'll wait for the second printing so my book isn't invalidated," a very real concern post ACG.

+1

[ZZTRaider]

Nicos wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

As an aside, the model that a game MUST have an experienced GM to keep casters in check is not one that invites new players to experience the game, and admits there's an inherent flaw in the game.

It is also true that the gap between mundane and magic don't seems that apparent with inexperienced players (except for monks, those are a trap)

I don't think that's true. I played with someone that wasn't very familiar with Pathfinder, and she gravitated toward playing a Crossbow Rogue, because she thought it was a cool concept.

Crossbows and ranged Rogues are hard to do well no matter what, but our group primarily plays with the CRB only, so a lot of the things you'd need to do it well weren't even available.

She spent a lot of time in combat trying (and failing) to be effective, until eventually the party Wizard was able to give her Greater Invisibility reliably.

Meanwhile, as the party Druid (focused on summoning), I held back considerably to avoid making things even worse. I usually only had a single summon out at a time, even though I'd have the spell slots to pull out more if I wanted. The summons were always more effective in combat than the Rogue. I felt bad, because I couldn't really do much to scale back further, and it was a bit late to completely change the character concept. Yet, my summons routinely outshone a full party member, all because she selected something that sounded cool and didn't realize it was one of Pathfinder's many trap options.

[Nicos]

ok, You are right, I admit it, Monks and rogues are newbie traps.

[Squirrel_Dude]

HWalsh wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

I should note, I, and many others, get shouted as though we committed high blasphemy when we point out that the GM should be doing thingd to stop the disparity...

Then he says:

"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."

Which pretty much states exactly the same thing. If there is a caster disparity at your table then the GM's not doing their job.

we just point out that that's not an excuse, the game shouldn't require an experienced GM to function, maybe some people get a little flustered when it's ignored time and time again, but what can you do.

The GM is the most important thing in the game. The game is intended to work with an experienced GM. The GM should be the most experienced guy at the table.

I'm not going to disagree with you here. I'm instead going to ask you a question:

- How good is the Core Rulebook/Dungeon Master's Guide in any edition of D&D or Pathfinder at actually teaching someone how to GM a game? Not how good is it at giving them the rules for environments, or some prestige classes (seriously 3.5?), or a random magic item table, or any of the other random crap they put in the GMs section. How good is it at teaching a GM how to craft an encounter, and adventure, and the narrative that connects everything together?

[Caster-Martial Disparity God]

Bandw2 wrote:

666 has cometh!

I will now sacrifice 6 goats for the summoning as i chant the summon!

proceeds to cut off the heads of 6 goat miniatures

ARISE LORD OF THE DICE ARISE!

...

now all we can do is wait.

As a wind of dark portent. It arrives.

[N. Jolly]

Kain Darkwind wrote:

"To a large extent as well the responsibility to keep things fair and fun for all involved lands on the GM's shoulders."

Nothing in the quote about an experienced DM, so why is the anti-DM crowd trying to shift the narrative as though that was the expectation?

The game doesn't require an experienced DM to run. An experienced DM will be better at running it. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Complaining that there are actual responsibilities that go along with being the DM is ridiculous.

Okay, let me ask you then what does a first time GM do to combat this already admitted issue without knowing

A: that it is an issue
B: any possible ways to stop it

Those seem like the kind of things that you would need experience to avoid, which is why experienced is being pushed so hard here.

No one's complaining that there's work involved with GMing. Hell, they make the encounters, play the NPCs, create the story (unless they're running an AP), and tons of other stuff, why are you trying to shift "create balance in an unbalanced system" onto them too?

[HWalsh]

Squirrel_Dude wrote:

- How good is the Core Rulebook/Dungeon Master's Guide in any edition of D&D or Pathfinder at actually teaching someone how to GM a game? Not how good is it at giving them the rules for environments, or some prestige classes (seriously 3.5?), or a random magic item table, or any of the other random crap they put in the GMs section. How good is it at teaching a GM how to craft an encounter, and adventure, and the narrative that connects everything together?

The core PHBs and DMGs tended to be mediocre at that part. They all mention the important parts. They tell the GM flat out that they will have to rule things when needed.

There is a section of the GMG that is labeled as, "Duties of a GM."

Read what it says, including the part about acting as an instructor and the part where it tells you that you need to be aware of what player characters are capable of. Read about the role of the GM as an entertainer. Those right there tell you pretty well how to GM.

If a disparity causes problems, it is up to the GM to fix it. That is kind of baked into the GM's job. Especially when the game gives you the tools to take care of it.

I also love how people tried to pull that with the rope trick, "No it means you can't pull the rope in after you!" Nice... Not what it says though. Why? Because Rope Trick wasn't meant to be an unassailable place. It hides people inside it and stops attacks without getting rid of it and provides a way for people to watch the rope in case. Its not an instant hut.

Preparing to Run a Game - A section in the PF GMG is actually really good, especially when it talks about knowing your players and talks about designing your adventure around what they can/might do. Especially the part about quirks!

(Oh! My players like to rest the second they get to 1/3 of their spells... Lets shake this up a bit.)

I highly recommend reading, "The Illusion of Free Choice" section as that is part of a lot of game design. Ultimately a masterful GM will make his players do what he wants without them realizing that they were being played like a fiddle the whole time.

That is masterful though. I've done it... Not every time though... With players I know really well... Yes. I have been able to predict what they would do and I knew how to get them to do what I wanted to do. I don't expect new GMs to be able to do that out of the box and nobody should.

The section about the GM being willing to cheat is a great one.

I recommend that people look at the GMG's section on "Fixing a Broken Game" as well, as it tells you IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS THE GM TO FIX CASTER MARTIAL DISPARITIES.

Or, a quote:

"Gamebreaker Element: Maybe the druid’s spell enhanced animal companion is more deadly than the party fighter, or the wizard’s new staff allows the PCs to easily bypass or decimate encounters. Maybe the bard’s new feat is letting him use his astronomical Diplomacy score to talk NPCs and enemies into almost anything.

This sort of thing can either make the game boring because there’s no challenge, or else make it too risky for other PCs because you have to make encounters engaging for the most powerful character. For tips on how to handle this, see Overpowered PCs on pages 50–51."

Want to know how to deal with the pesky teleportation issue that people love to complain about? This is one of the things the GMG tells you to do:

"You improvise and cheat, of course."

In fact the Pathfinder GMG covers pretty much every complaint in the Caster/Martial threads. Its almost as if the people complaining have never read the GMG a lot of the time.

The section on player interactions is really good. Similar to the old "Problem Players" section White Wolf published years back.

So yeah... A GM who has read the GMG cover to cover can be pretty darn well prepared to do the role a GM has to. The Pathfinder GMG, for example, puts the old 2nd Ed DMG to shame.

[Devilkiller]

I'm generally a big fan of nerfs, and I'd like to see Dazing Spell get nerfed. I wouldn't mind if Freedom of Movement got nerfed either though I'd stop well short of "you fall off the world" and go with something more like "instead of being immune to being grappled you get a +20 to avoid or escape being grappled"

Still, I think Paizo probably could have done a much better job on the Scarred Witch Doctor nerf. Is there another thread more specifically about that?

[Bandw2]

HWalsh wrote:

The core PHBs and DMGs tended to be mediocre at that part. They all mention the important parts. They tell the GM flat out that they will have to rule things when needed.

There is a section of the GMG that is labeled as, "Duties of a GM."

Read what it says, including the part about acting as an instructor and the part where it tells you that you need to be aware of what player characters are capable of. Read about the role of the GM as an entertainer. Those right there tell you pretty well how to GM.

If a disparity causes problems, it is up to the GM to fix it. That is kind of baked into the GM's job. Especially when the game gives you the tools to take care of it.

it doesn't really give you tools though, i mean it does but the tools are the things that are broken, you need to fix the tools yourself, without them being apparent that they are broken and without any knowledge of how the tools work in relation to one another.

I also love how people tried to pull that with the rope trick, "No it means you can't pull the rope in after you!" Nice... Not what it says though. Why? Because Rope Trick wasn't meant to be an unassailable place. It hides people inside it and stops attacks without getting rid of it and provides a way for people to watch the rope in case. Its not an instant hut.

just feel like mentioning something, the can't hide the rope was something pathfinder added from 3.5, because people would pull the rope in after them. this is why the assumption is that that is why the line was added, as they were trying to conserve space. otherwise the spell is absurd

Preparing to Run a Game - A section in the PF GMG is actually really good, especially when it talks about knowing your players and talks about designing your adventure around what they can/might do.the GM doesn;t know what they can/might do, he's inexperienced Especially the part about quirks!

(Oh! My players like to rest the second they get to 1/3 of their spells... Lets shake this up a bit.)

I highly recommend reading, "The Illusion of Free Choice" section as that is part of a lot of game design. Ultimately a masterful GM will make his players do what he wants without them realizing that they were being played like a fiddle the whole time.

as a gamer, who is intimately aware of agency, this is a horrible tactic, especially when it's an actual person doing this. very few gamers fall for the illusion of choice, and very fewer people can actually successfully make one. meaning for the average GM this is still something you shouldn't do.

That is masterful though. I've done it... Not every time though... With players I know really well... Yes. I have been able to predict what they would do and I knew how to get them to do what I wanted to do. I don't expect new GMs to be able to do that out of the box and nobody should. can't/won't speak of other's experiences

The section about the GM being willing to cheat is a great one.

I recommend that people look at the GMG's section on "Fixing a Broken Game" as well, as it tells you IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS THE GM TO FIX CASTER MARTIAL DISPARITIES.

Or, a quote:

"Gamebreaker Element: Maybe the druid’s spell enhanced animal companion is more deadly than the party fighter, or the wizard’s new staff allows the PCs to easily bypass or decimate encounters. Maybe the bard’s new feat is letting him use his astronomical Diplomacy score to talk NPCs and enemies into almost anything.

This sort of thing can either make the game boring because there’s no challenge, or else make it too risky for other PCs because you have to make encounters engaging for the most powerful character. For tips on how to handle this, see Overpowered PCs on pages 50–51."

you know what also fixes this problem? not having game breaking elements in the game in the first place!

Want to know how to deal with the pesky teleportation issue that people love to complain about? This is one of the things the GMG tells you to do:

"You improvise and cheat, of course." I lose interest in an inconsistent world, and i think many would feel the same.

In fact the Pathfinder GMG covers pretty much every complaint in the Caster/Martial threads. Its almost as if the people complaining have never read the GMG a lot of the time.

except it doesn't as it still requires you to have knowledge of the game to make any of those decisions

The section on player interactions is really good. Similar to the old "Problem Players" section White Wolf published years back.

So yeah... A GM who has read the GMG cover to cover can be pretty darn well prepared to do the role a GM has to. The Pathfinder GMG, for example, puts the old 2nd Ed DMG to shame.

except it doesn't as it still requires you to have knowledge of the game to make any of those decisions

[Devilkiller]

Somewhere in the gaming Multiverse...

Player 1: "I cast Bull's Strength!"
DM: "Make a Fort save."
Player 1: "Ok, I only got a 12, but what is it for?"
DM: "12 fails! Bull's Strength made your muscles stronger, and your heart is a muscle. It squeezed harder than your arteries could handle, and you've just had a stroke. You take 1d4 ability drain to each ability."
Player: "That's not fair!"
DM: "For goodness sakes, I only rolled 2 Str drain, so you're still up by +2 Str. Your spell worked, but you're still complaining! Magic has a price! If you want revenge then cast Reduce on the enemy's eyeballs and make them fall out!"
Player 1: "That's a 1e spell, and I don't think it works that way..."
Player 2: "Hee-hee-hee, cast it on his, hee-hee-hee, cast it on his <body part>!"
DM: "He doesn't have a <body part>. It got cut off when he fumbled last round."
Player 2: "This game is awesome!"

[HWalsh]

Bandw2 wrote:

*snip*

I really don't understand your argument here.

I claimed, "GMs have been asked to do X, Y, Z the whole time. That is the way the game is intended."

I get shouted down by a litany, "It isn't intended to be that way! You are wrong! I run games the way I want to run games and therefore there is a problem! You can't prove it wasn't intended to be run the way you say it was!"

I show comments from the devs... I pull out excerpts from the books... All of which 100% support what I was saying...

Band - The game isn't built to work perfectly right out of the box with a GM who has no idea how to play the game. The GMG gives a LOT of direct information about how to stop things like, "Teleportation" and the like.

The GM doesn't have to, and should never feel obligated to, play every NPC "by the rules."

(Which I ALSO pointed out to you in another thread.)

Do you want an RPG or do you want a board game with a predetermined board and clear rules and a clear method to win?

RPGs are games crafted by the GM who does what he wants based on what he thinks will be the most fun. If that means him doing things like, "Hey this villain is immune to X, Y, or Z." Then he does it, and he's doing it right.

Does it take time to get used to that? Yes.

Though there are thousands, on top of thousands, on top of thousands, of GMs willing to teach. There are videos, freely available, on places like YouTube where GMs will explain what to do in almost any situation. You can listen to podcasts of games and learn what other GMs have done.

Being a GM is hard work. It takes a lot of time and dedication. It requires an in-depth knowledge of the rules and more importantly it requires realizing when the rules are getting in the way and that you should ignore them.

For you to insist that the game should have none of the options that you think are problematic, when clearly there are ways to counter them, is like you want the GM to have little to no input on how the game works... Like you just want the GM to design a dungeon, use only published creatures, never invent anything, and not take steps to curb abuse...

Its weird.

You want RPGs to be completely unlike how any RPG has ever been made.

[Bandw2]

@HWalsh as i said before, if it;s intended for experienced GMs then it's intended for the wrong person, you don't NEED the CRB when you're experienced, but you do when you;re not.

basically all that stuff you mentioned means jack squat when the GM isn't aware that levels in PC classes aren't equal or that CR isn't actually equal to something else of the same CR. it gives some advice but the majority of the advice, the actual rules, goes against the first advice.