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So the unchained monk is probably different enough from the standard one to merit a guide. I kind of want to make one, but I'm sure I'd miss a lot of things if I just started writing. So here's a brainstorming thread, where I'm hoping people will share their thoughts.
Things that should probably be in there;
-This thing actually combines flurry and mobility fairly well. Color me surprised.
-It is also really good at hitting stuff. Multiple attacks! At full base attack! Without penalties! Means that you are more accurate than for example a brawler.
-This extra accuracy should be traded in for damage, as you lack that. Power Attack, Pirahna Strike or Deadly Aim* are all golden, depending on your setup
-That said, if you want pure unarmed melee power, go grab the brawler or the sacred fist warpriest instead, probably with a dip into master of many styles. The guide will be for people who want the sweet wuxia flavor offered by actual monk class monks, not for filthy optimisers.
*Though if you like ranged attacks with your monk, pick the zen archer instead. It kills things really, really well.
Ki powers:
-Slow fall is for chumps. Grab a ring of feather falling instead, it's almost free.
-The ones costing 4 ki points are almost never worth it.
-Formless mastery is like having Favored Enemy(Humanoid: Strix). Do not pick this for PFS, nor for an AP, unless your GM likes to rebuild all the creatures and NPCs. Some GMs like style feats though. If yours is one of them, it might be more like having a holy weapon.
-Wind Jump is awesome. Having a ring of feather falling gives more mobility with it. Taking slow fall does not. See a theme here?
-Ki Visions: Divination is a powerful spell. This is not a bad ability.
Style Strikes
-Flying Kick. Take this. This is borderline mandatory.
-Shattering Blow. I wonder how this interacts with Pummeling style. If it lets you
That's all I have at the moment. I'm especially looking for feats and magic items I might not know of.
This is definetly needed as there is very little info on the unchained monk. Things to consider:
- Unarmed versus armed builds
- Archetypes available to the Unchained Monk: Weapon Adept, Hamatsulatsu Master and I think also Sensei and MoMS
- Ki Point Starvation
- Dipping (both into unchained mon and unchained monk dips)
Regarding archetypes. Comparing the two versions, here's what has been changed, and what features remain the same:
The following features remain unchanged
Unarmed Strike*
Stunning Fist*
AC Bonus
Bonus Feats
Skills, # of ranks per level & class skills
Good Fortitude & Reflex
Evasion
Fast Movement
Purity of Body
Improved Evasion
Timeless Body
*These class features have had minor language edits in the transition - this should not be a reason you can't exchange them with archetypes.
The following features have been moved
Still Mind
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
The following features have been modified
d10 Hit Dice
Good Base Attack Bonus
Bad Willpower progression
Armor & Weapon Proficiencies
Flurry of Blows
Ki Pool (Has also been moved)
Tongue of the Sun & Moon
Perfect Self
Finally, these have been removed
Maneuver Training
Slow Fall
High Jump
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Diamond Soul
Quivering Palm
Empty Body
Now, if an archetype changes a class feature, you can't combine it with another one that does so, too. The unchained monk isn't an archetype of the regular monk, so a GM might rule that you can take archetypes that exchange or modify class features that have been moved or even changed in the unchained monk. Maybe, if you're lucky. As far as I can tell, the official stance on the matter is 'nope, not gonna happen', so it's probably not something to try in PFS, if you happen to like that sort of thing.
Still, the rest of us might derive some fun from it, so these might be a possibility;
-Hamashtulu master might be possible, albeit it modifies the ki pool ability.
-Master of Many Styles exchanges flurry of blows & Perfect Self.
-Quiggong can exchange a few things you still have. Don't know why you would though. Also, it might count as modifying all the abilities it can exchange, even if you only exchange some of them. In that case, you won't be able to take it. Ask your DM about this too.
-Sensei exchanges flurry.
-Weapon Adept exchanges Perfect Self.
-Monk vows exchange Still Mind.
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Flurry will now give 1.5xSTR with a two-handed weapon on top of two-handed Power Attack, once again making armed Monk very appealing - though an armed Unchained Monk can't use a weapon with some abilities, making it a weapon/unarmed hybrid. Which is actually very cool...
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The intention and the RAW is that the unchained monk cannot take any existing archetypes. That said, it is a common houserule, and you can cover the topics, but it is not allowed by the book.
As for style strikes, I'd say foot stomp and elbow strike are both more valuable than shattering blow, and your movement isn't high enough to make good use from flying kick as your first style strike, although it's great for the second.
I'd be very interested in a guide.
Flying Kick seems pretty functional right out of the gate; it lets you get in 15' of movement during a full attack (10' from Fast Movement, 5' from the normal 5' step you can take), and it advances to 25' of movement the level after you get it. And then it gets better from there.
I was thinking about making one myself. For the record though:
-That said, if you want pure unarmed melee power, go grab the brawler or the sacred fist warpriest instead, probably with a dip into master of many styles. The guide will be for people who want the sweet wuxia flavor offered by actual monk class monks, not for filthy optimisers.
God no. Brawler has no extra accuracy, Sacred Fist is slow to build as hell.
UnMonk with Dragon Style is the single most damaging unarmed melee out there.
Also, I would mention the Sansetsukuon Crane Style build I love and breathe.
I was thinking about making one myself. For the record though:
-That said, if you want pure unarmed melee power, go grab the brawler or the sacred fist warpriest instead, probably with a dip into master of many styles. The guide will be for people who want the sweet wuxia flavor offered by actual monk class monks, not for filthy optimisers.God no. Brawler has no extra accuracy, Sacred Fist is slow to build as hell.
UnMonk with Dragon Style is the single most damaging unarmed melee out there.
Also, I would mention the Sansetsukuon Crane Style build I love and breathe.
What's the detail on that build? I've been looking at options for an Unchained Monk and I'd love to hear more about cool things people have built.
What's the detail on that build? I've been looking at options for an Unchained Monk and I'd love to hear more about cool things people have built.I was thinking about making one myself. For the record though:
-That said, if you want pure unarmed melee power, go grab the brawler or the sacred fist warpriest instead, probably with a dip into master of many styles. The guide will be for people who want the sweet wuxia flavor offered by actual monk class monks, not for filthy optimisers.God no. Brawler has no extra accuracy, Sacred Fist is slow to build as hell.
UnMonk with Dragon Style is the single most damaging unarmed melee out there.
Also, I would mention the Sansetsukuon Crane Style build I love and breathe.
Race: Human
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Starting Scores: STR 18 (includes racial +2) / DEX 14 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 15 / CHA 7
Planned Pips: +1 WIS at 4th level, rest to STR.
Feat/Ki Power/Style Strike Progression
1st level. Crane Style + Power Attack + Dodge
2nd level. Combat Reflexes
3rd level. Weapon Focus
4th level. KP: Qinggong Power [Barkskin]
5th level. Crane Wing + Style Strike [Flying Kick]
6th level. Mobility + KP: Ki Metabolism
7th level. Iron Will
8th level. KP: Abundant Step
9th level. Crane Riposte
10th level. Improved Critical + KP: Qinggong Power [Ki Leech] + Style Strike [Foot Stomp]
11th level. Dimensional Agility
12th level. KP: Diamond Soul
13th level. Dimensional Assault
14th level. KP: One Touch
15th level. Dimensional Dervish + Style Strike [Spinning Kick]Use a Sansetsukuon wielded in two hands (I used a Temple Sword for flavor reasons). You suffer very little from having to combine unarmed strikes with weapon hits for the style strikes... after all, you'll mostly use Flying Kick to reposition yourself, and you only do that once every few full-attacks. Abundant Step can be used if you don't want to jeopardize damage/accuracy in some corner cases.
That being said, a Blade of the Sword Saint can be used instead of style strikes and is the best weapon bar-none for Monks.You regularly have enough AC to be untouchable (literally, I ran the numbers, some enemies with CR +2 higher than you can only hit you with crits), and you combine that with: 1. great fort saves, 2. great reflex saves AND evasion. 3. great will saves, 4. Ki Metabolism, so you can hold your breath for... 14 hours. With a Belt of Physical Perfection, that's 16 hours.
A lot of the powers/feats are negotiable, so you have room for self-expression.
If you want an unarmed damage dealer:
Race: Human
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Starting Scores: STR 18 (includes racial +2) / DEX 14 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 15 / CHA 7
Planned Pips: +1 WIS at 4th level, rest to STR.
Feat/Ki Power/Style Strike Progression
1st level. Power Attack + Weapon Focus + Dodge
2nd level. Combat Reflexes
3rd level. Dragon Style
4th level. KP: Qinggong Power [Barkskin]
5th level. Dragon Ferocity + Style Strike [Flying Kick]
6th level. Mobility + KP: Elemental Fury
7th level. Elemental Fist
8th level. KP: Abundant Step
9th level. Dragon's Roar
10th level. Improved Critical + KP: Qinggong Power [Ki Leech] + Style Strike [Foot Stomp]
11th level. Dimensional Agility
12th level. KP: Diamond Soul
13th level. Dimensional Assault
14th level. KP: One Touch
15th level. Dimensional Dervish + Style Strike [Spinning Kick]Stack a ton of damage on every attack.
For example, at 8th level, you deal 1d10+2xSTR+2d6+1d6+9 with your first attack and 1d10+1.5xSTR+1d6+9 with the rest of your attacks. It's quite a lot of damage. Plus you shaken enemies on crits, you can ignore terrain while charging, and you get a roar that targets Will (against warrior enemies), plus your Stunning Fist that targets Fort (against caster enemies)...
And after that, there's all the combat maneuver builds...
Build Stuff
There's also some seriously crazy 1-level dipping potential. Consider for example:
Cleric of Shizuru 1. Domains: Repose + Reformation Inquisition.
Crusader's Flurry to upgrade to Katana if desired.
Reformation Inquisition = social skills based on WIS.
Domain Power: Gentle Rest + Domain Strike + Medusa's Wrath. Turn one unarmed strike into three while inflicting stagger. By level 12, flurry goes: Unarmed +Stagger/ Wrath Unarmed/ Wrath Unarmed/ Sword/ Sword-5/ Sword-5/ (Haste?)Sword.
You don't need the dip, I'd rather get that sweet ass Blade of the Sword Saint.
You don't need the dip, I'd rather get that sweet ass Blade of the Sword Saint.
It's really more about the no-save stagger and the auto-Medusa.
Unchained Monk is also really great with the old dex-to-damage + Crusader's Flurry business. You can do something like Dervish Flurry + Wisdom-Intimidate-Inquisition + Cornugon Smash + Hurtful; or Dervish Flurry + full Crane Style; or Fencing Flurry + Amateur Swashbuckler + Combat Reflexes + Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf...
I was curious about armed versus unarmed monks, so I did some quick math; if someone wants to check it, that'd probably be helpful. I'm using the two builds Secret Wizard posted and then running the math for level 8 for simplicity's sake, and I'm ignoring magic items for the moment.
The weapon-wielding monk will do 5.5 (1d10, Weapon) + 7 (1.5x STR) + 9 (2H Power Attack) = 21.5 damage on each hit. On unarmed attacks, like from the required kicks on Flying Kick or bonus attacks from expending a Ki Point, the damage drops to 5.5 (1d10, Fists) + 5 (1x STR) + 6 (1H Power Attack) = 16.5 damage per hit; you'll also lose Weapon Focus if you Focused your primary weapon.
The unarmed monk using dragon style does 5.5 (1d10, Fist) + 7 (1.5x STR from Dragon Ferocity) + 6 (1H Power Attack) = 18.5 damage per hit, with a 3 damage bonus on the first hit from Dragon Style. They'll keep this number for every additional attack, including style attacks.
The armed monk is going to pull ahead unless it has to make a lot of unarmed attacks each round (from style feats, etc.); it also has some other advantages, namely that enchanting a weapon is half the cost of an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Unarmed monks can pick up Elemental Fury which is cool, but it costs Ki points you could be using to make bonus attacks or power some of the other cool abilities monks get.
But the main advantage that using a weapon gives you is that it doesn't require feats. You can pick up whatever style feat you want, like Crane to pick up a ridiculous amount of AC, or just use the feats for other aspects of character development - all you need is Power Attack and you're set, whereas the other monk is locked into using Dragon Style. Which is admittedly a very solid style, most of the points you're investing are just to keep an unarmed monk on par with an armed one.
It's definitely possible I'm missing something, but I thought it was interesting.
E: Thinking about it a little, I did ignore the damage progression the unarmed monk will get that the armed one won't, which can be especially good with enlarge.
As for unarmed vs weapon. It depends a bit on level, but weapon is going to win out early on and unarmed is going to win out later...
Unarmed is the only thing that works with Style Strikes, Stunning Fist (and derivatives), Vicious Stomp, Enhanced Ki Throw, Bleeding Attack, Enforcer, the extra attack from spending a point of Ki, etc. Unarmed also has the advantage of allowing you to perform grapples. I think it may be useful to list all of the things that only work with unarmed attacks before really assessing a focus.
Don't overlook the ability to use both. In general, a two-handed weapon outperforms unarmed strike even at high level due mostly to criticals, Power Attack and strength (not strength if Dragon Ferocity is in play), but there's nothing preventing the use of an unarmed strike for any purpose that requires it while using the weapon for everything else.
Also, there are sneaky ways to use some of those features you listed with a weapon. Cornugon Stun allows Stunning Fist with a weapon and is a great combo with Mantis Style since you aren't using an unarmed buffing style with the strike. The Blade of Mercy trait allows you to freely deal nonlethal with several Monk weapons if you want to use Enforcer. Grabbing Style makes grappling while holding a weapon painless; combining it with Hamatula Strike and Weapon Versatility means you can begin a grapple with an attack (the rules for Hamatula Strike are kind of a mess, but work fine in general).
It's definitely possible I'm missing something, but I thought it was interesting.
You are missing the most important thing to determine damage. Crit range. For Temple Swords and such, it is 19-20, for unarmed its 20. With Improved Critical, range becomes 17-20 for weapons, but only 19-20 for unarmed.
The Amulet of Mighty Fists advantage is removed once you consider that a Ki Focus weapon is as mandatory.
It's definitely possible I'm missing something, but I thought it was interesting.You are missing the most important thing to determine damage. Crit range. For Temple Swords and such, it is 19-20, for unarmed its 20. With Improved Critical, range becomes 17-20 for weapons, but only 19-20 for unarmed.
The Amulet of Mighty Fists advantage is removed once you consider that a Ki Focus weapon is as mandatory.
Yeah, I did ignore crit range, mostly because I was only running the numbers at level 8 so Improved Critical wasn't an option yet; it's a good point, though.
How important is Ki Focus though, really? It lets you get Ki Strike on your weapon, which can be pretty nifty in terms of overcoming DR depending on what you're facing or totally useless, and I'd argue that it'd also let you perform bonus attacks from spending ki points through your weapon rather than forcing an unarmed attack which is significant. Style strikes should still require the use of the specified body part, though.
Yep, but you also get to use stuff like Elemental Fist (feat) or Elemental Fury (Ki Power) with a weapon... later on, you get One Touch (Ki Power) with a weapon to ignore the armor of heavily tanky enemies.
Style strikes are the sticking point, but then again... there's our saintly sword....
PS: Area Garven, if you make the guide on a google docs I could help <3
Kind of weirdly, you can actually use Elemental Fist with a weapon regardless. There's no language in the feat about using it on an unarmed attack like Stunning Fist has.
Ki Focus can be useful, but having another point of enhancement is often going to do as much against DR while also providing more enhancement bonus. Cornugon Stun can be used for Stunning Fist with a weapon if desired, and Elemental Fist (which is fairly pointless anyhow unless going into one of the elemental styles) doesn't require an unarmed strike.
For the purposes of using Style Strikes, the Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes is a cheaper alternative to the AoMF, and it combines well with Ki Strike for using unarmed strike as a relevant but 'secondary' weapon on the cheap.
Honestly the Crane Style build is not that attractive anymore now that Crane Style requires a free hand, so you can't 2H with it, which is how I was getting extra damage in.
The damage should be meh, but you get a ton of attacks.
Also:
Attacks: +25/+25 (Flurry)/+25 (Flurry)/+20/+15 = +13 BAB +7 Str +3 Enhancement +1 Weapon Focus +1 Competence (Ioun) +1 Haste (Boots) -1 Fighting Defensively (Crane Riposte)
If you are using Haste from the boots, you'd get another +25.
Also, I saw the AC mentioned elsewhere that this Crane Style build gets +5 AC over the Dragon Style one, but I can only get +3 using Crane Style (+2 for fighting defensively +1 for Crane Style), though it's +7 vs melee since there's the additional +4 from Crane Wing.
Fighting Defensively is +3 (+4 with Crane Wing) if you have 3 Acrobatics or higher, as a base rule.
Also, Dragon Style is no longer attractive now that Ascetic Style exists, unless you play PFS.
Level? Point buy? Wealth?
Was the uMonk guide ever made?