Blight Druid Advice

[Hemaskas the Monk]

My dream is to roll up a Blight Druid that has his own vermin swarm from level 1.

I was hoping to use my Vermin Empathy ability and either find some vermin using my survival skill or buy them

House Centipedes are available on the paizo PRD for 1cp and I was thinking of buying 25 of them (the max that fits in one square)

But the GM I usually play with says that I am only allowed use one combat pet and also wants to know exactly what source the House Centipedes are in.

"During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like."

what makes an animal a combat animal as the house centipedes are not combat trained.. they also are not animals as they are vermin!

If I am not able to buy in advance vermin, what should the DC be to find vermin, there must be many of them in most of the scenarios that we play in PFS, can a GM just rule that there are no vermin in the dungeon or a forest we are passing, can a GM insist that the only vermin that are there are unstated vermin that cannot be used in combat because otherwise their stats would already be published in the adventure?

Can anyone else think of ways to get and keep for a whole adventure a multitude of vermin

Any other advise on the blight druid would be welcome and how do other players feel about playing alongside a blight Druid?

[Leathert]

A combat animal is any creature that works for your PC and participates in combat. Thus most GMs might not count a familiar if it just sits in your pocket and does not actually do anything, but the second it for example is ordered to bite someone, it becomes a combat animal.

I'd think the problem with the centipedes would more be having them acting like a swarm instead of 25 seperate creatures. The source for house centipedes as things one can buy is Ultimate Equipment, and their entry there does not say anything special about getting them to swarm. Their stats (as a familiar) are from Ultimate Magic, but well, no mention of swarming there either.

Your GM denying the existence of vermin in most locations would feel kinda unfair, but also vermin big enough to of any use (tiny, eg. rat-sized) would probably not exist in such a large quantities as regular ones. Making finding lots of them a bit more difficult.

[Hemaskas the Monk]

Thanks for letting me know the sources

what about summoning natures ally for multiple creatures, does that put me past the limit of more then one combat animal? or if I cast animate dead?

Once again thanks for your opinion and replying

[Hemaskas the Monk]

also what if I came across two animals (or vermin) that were stated in an adventure and made them friendly using wild empathy (or used Charm animal/vermin) would I then only be able to fight using one of them?

[Ragoz]

You are allowed to have both a familiar and an animal companion in combat at the same time according to the FAQ.

Quote:

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

Summon and animate dead do not count against this limit.

As for blight druid, I have an oread blight druid of Rovagug with a petrifern (tiny stick person) familiar.. he smells of sulfur and views other pathfinders as tools of destruction. His has a lot of earth and rock themed spells as an oread. His main 'thing' was going to be using Baleful Polymorph at a reduced level from being a druid follower of Rovagug.

As for the swarms.. you can't really 'make' a swarm even by buying a lot of centipedes. I'm not really sure how to go about this besides occasionally getting use from the ability. It's also normally difficult for druids to wild empathy anyway.

[Pirate Rob]

Ragoz wrote:

You are allowed to have both a familiar and an animal companion in combat at the same time according to the FAQ.

I do not believe that is what the FAQ says.

[Ragoz]

I quoted it right there for you.

[BigNorseWolf]

Ragoz wrote:

I quoted it right there for you.

In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

Parses to [mount or familiar or mundane pet] AND [class granted animal companion]

The and there makes no sense when they could have just kept going with the ors.

______

If you have a swarm of 25 creatures that you are sending into combat you most certainly have more than 1 combat critter.

[pH unbalanced]

Ragoz wrote:

I quoted it right there for you.

But you took it out of context. Here is the full FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

EDIT: Ninja wolf.

[niconorsk]

Here's an idea.
You have access to a spell Summon Swarm that you could try to use Vermin Empathy to gain some measure of control over.

Now, I'm fairly sure many GMs won't allow that particular use, but given that you would have to give up all your standard actions in order to keep this swarm for multiple combats, I don't think it is too abusive.

If nothing else, the spell itself is fairly thematic for your druid, so nothing stopping you from casting it behind the enemies before combat starts and being aware that you'll have to deal with it for at least two rounds at the end of combat. Just let your team know as they'll need to adapt their strategy accordingly.

[Ragoz]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Parses to [mount or familiar or mundane pet] AND [class granted animal companion]

I feel like I'm missing something. This is exactly what I said.

Quote:

allowed to have both a familiar and an animal companion

[BigNorseWolf]

I was agreeing with you.

I know this is the internet but that can happen!

[Ragoz]

I got really confused when you quoted me and thought I was being corrected somehow... carry on!

[pH unbalanced]

Ragoz wrote:

I got really confused when you quoted me and thought I was being corrected somehow... carry on!

You can have both of them with your character, but you can only have one of them in combat at a time. That's the correction we were making to what you said.

[Pirate Rob]

I believe the last sentence is just giving guidance on what a reasonable number of non-combat pets might be. It is not overriding the first sentence, it is helping clarify it.

Some people think it does override the first sentence.

[BigNorseWolf]

You can have a familiar and a combat animal. Your familiar would have to be a funky build to qualify AS a combat animal.

[Chris Mortika]

Not necssarily, BNW..If a wizard wants his familiar to attack in combat, perhaps delivering touch attacks, subject to attacks and damage, it's a combat animal.

[FLite]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You can have a familiar and a combat animal. Your familiar would have to be a funky build to qualify AS a combat animal.

Not really.

Mauler is basically built to be a combat buddy.

Protector has bodyguard and engages in defensive combat.

A whole lot of improved familiars make excellent touch spell delivery systems.

[kinevon]

Also, many, if not most, Improved Familiars would be fairly useful in combat. And, at higher levels, using some of the various polymorph spells, like Form of the Dragon, on your familiar can give a fairly capable combat familiar.

[BigNorseWolf]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Not necssarily, BNW..If a wizard wants his familiar to attack in combat, perhaps delivering touch attacks, subject to attacks and damage, it's a combat animal.

Thats VERY subject to table variation. You are supposed to be able to have both.

[Chris Mortika]

BNW, they can have both, but as you say, different GMs will rule differently on whether they can use both in combat.

At my table, a player picks one other critter to be in the initiative order and to act in combat. (Summoned critters are a spell effect; they don't count.) I'm willing to have 6 players with 12 initiative rolls at my table. But not 18.

(And yes, it's not hard to build up a familiar to be survivable in combat, and still have an animal companion. I play in a home campaign with an arcanist PC that has both. And yes, it can really slow things down.)

[Hemaskas the Monk]

Thanks for all the replies.. I can see now that buying 25 centipedes is not an option and anyway having a huge number of critters a swarm does not make!

I like the option of using summon swarm and vermin empathy

What about the problem of: can vermin with stats (i.e. like the stats of the house centipede or even a rat) be found using survival skill in likely locations in adventures when no such creatures are listed as monsters in the scenario?

My GM is saying that there might be such creatures but the ones you find are too small to be of use and that it is unfair (and against the rules) for him to have to make up exactly what vermin are available in any given location

Also another thing occurs to me, in the confirmation there are frogs mentioned in the pond where the oracle is, could I use wild empathy (if I had that, as I won't!) on said frogs and then use them as toads using stats as per the toad familiar?

[Ragoz]

That sort of thing is mostly just up to the table GM. If you want a consistent experience you'll want mechanical ways to back it up.

[Oykiv]

Hemaskas the Monk wrote:

What about the problem of: can vermin with stats (i.e. like the stats of the house centipede or even a rat) be found using survival skill in likely locations in adventures when no such creatures are listed as monsters in the scenario?

Subject to GM fiat.

Take in account you´re adding some creatures that can be beneficial for you without the risks of encunter another creatures which could be in the same places and be danger. Maybe if you suggest what happens if you fail and the GM feels the risk is fair, you can convince him

Hemaskas the Monk wrote:

Also another thing occurs to me, in the confirmation there are frogs mentioned in the pond where the oracle is, could I use wild empathy (if I had that, as I won't!) on said frogs and then use them as toads using stats as per the toad familiar?

Subject to GM fiat.

I see no problem in it, it´s a harmless creature with no attacks and with very few uses as a scout. But can be a good goblin pet.
Unfortunately no GM is under an obligation to consider those frogs are exactly as the toad familiar. There are bigger and smaller frogs, and if any GM says they´re too small to be usefull for anything, there´s nothing you can do.

-

I´m fairly sure I´m wrong, but the first impression I had from your question is you are trying to have a unfair advantage. A Swarm at level 1 is something very few opponents could face. You have GMed some scenarios, reread them and check how many can do anything versus a swarm. Or having free minions thanks to the wild empathy. Maybe your usual GM is saying so many "no" due to felling something similar.

Want to use it as part of the fluff of the character? That´s great, just tell your GM your character searched and found some cockroachs that follows you. They´ll not have stats and not affect in combat at all, but they follow you and sometimes you talk with them. It´s a defining characteristic that adds deep to your character.

[Hemaskas the Monk]

thanks for all the replies.

I think I am looking for a way to turn the fluff I want my character to have to some advantage not necessarily an unfair advantage. I suppose a swarm at level 1 is unfair, but I do want my vermin empathy (which requires me to invest in my CHA) to be of some use

I was thinking, after reading the above posts, how many animals/vermin can I retain influence over in combat after having made them friendly via wild/vermin empathy, are they to be considered combat pets and thus be limited to one?

Would diplomacy be limited to the same restrictions when influencing more then one person? Can friendly NPCs be considered combat pets?

Humanoids that fight for you via charm person or diplomacy, do they count as combat pets? If so that might reduce the efficiency of charm person for a summoner.

After all as the animal/vermin are only under my influence, I still have to make rolls to command them and I fail by 5 or more, they may attack me, and so I am at some disadvantage here

[Oykiv]

I don´t think they´re considered "combat pets" I see them more in line with "summoned creatures". Someone who fight for you due a spell, or class feature.

But, making someone (human, animal or vermin) friendly not necessarily means it will fight for you. Of course it can, but depends a lot in the situation; a city guard will not leave his duties to go with you, a bandit will don´t mind a lot to turn sides for a share of the money

Regarding to using your vermin/wild empathy. It´s something I´ll not count with a lot. Trying to find and use them will face a lot of table variation. And if you find vermin in a sesion is unlikely you´ll have a minute to make the check (when I faced Giant spiders, thay attackd us on sight).

And one last thing to be considered. As vermin empathy act as diplomacy for vermin, you need to make rolls to command them, but if you fail they simply refuse to act as suggested, they woun´t attack you. Also it states it takes one or more round to make a request. A simple attack request should not last more than one round, but even sacrificing only one whole round asking your house centipede to attack is a lot (in my opinion).

[Flutter]

I can say with personal experience that being able to wild empathy vermin is, on its own, pretty valuable. The writers use them in place of animal encounters in the wilderness a lot because of their immunity to most mind affecting effects. Fast empathy helps make it a lot more usable, but you can spend 3 gold on a pig to drop at their feet to give them time to get to know you for a lot of the same effect. I think a third of my wild empathy usage has been on vermin.

If you want to bring in a giant centipede, Call animal is the spell you're looking for, though you'll need a pretty high handle animal or the wartrain mount spell to make them really usable in combat.

If you're going to do that, be sure to have a wand of mage armor you can hand to the party wizard/use magic device person to give your cute multi legged friend

[Hemaskas the Monk]

Thanks for the idea Flutter!
But I am unsure if you can use call animal on vermin.

I would have never thought of using a pig that way!

[Flutter]

Hemaskas the Monk wrote:

Thanks for the idea Flutter!

But I am unsure if you can use call animal on vermin.

I would have never thought of using a pig that way!

Hmmm.. your vermin empathy ability doesn't let you do that. Not that familiar with blight druids...

You can pick up the vermin hearted feat to let you treat vermin (covers the centipedes ears such a nasty word) as animals. A little redundant with your vermin empathy ability though.

[Leathert]

Also one thing I'd like to note. Sorry if this has been said before. Using vermin empathy to make a creature friendly to you doesn't automatically mean it will fight on your side. It just won't attack you anymore and is likely to listen what you have to say if you can communicate with it. It is like Diplomacy with people, when they're friendly, you can make requests of them, which might mean that they help you if you succeed.

Using spells to charm them etc, would of course be a bit different thing.

[Hemaskas the Monk]

Flutter wrote:

Hemaskas the Monk wrote:

Thanks for the idea Flutter!

But I am unsure if you can use call animal on vermin.

I would have never thought of using a pig that way!

Hmmm.. your vermin empathy ability doesn't let you do that. Not that familiar with blight druids...

You can pick up the vermin hearted feat to let you treat vermin (covers the centipedes ears such a nasty word) as animals. A little redundant with your vermin empathy ability though.

Hmm.... I am unsure if i can get vermin heart, because the prerequisite

is to have the wild empathy class feature, while i have vermin empathy.