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Here's something an old wizard said in another thread in regard to all the unwritten rules that actually hold an RPG game/group together. While another person hinted that his group maintained balance between martial and caster power levels through meta-gaming, Lemmy really got me thinking with the following line:
Or we could wake up and insist on a rulebook that has everything people need in it to actually play. In other words, rules that actually reflect all these agreements we've evolved over the last 35 years.
Obviously, the core rulebooks cover some of this stuff, but it's always very general "golden rule" kind of advice. "Don't be a jerk" and "Rule 0" stuff that comes off a lot like the old "keep trying" advice you got when you were young that really didn't help. So my question to everyone is: What sorts of things would you like to see in such a supplement? I'm talking about very specific tactics, rules, and guidelines that help you turn a handful of newbies -friends or strangers- into a thriving gaming group and keep it running smoothly for years. Share your wisdom with us, veterans!
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There is no secret set of complex rules.
Just the one simple one.
1: Don't be a D***.
Only run games for people you trust not to disrupt your game.
And remember that PF is a team game. Any player that remembers that can make for a good group member.
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You should let the new player play whatever character they want to play...
but maybe not the class the to play.
If you are the kind of person whose friends are those in the gaming group, then you should be talking to them on a regular basis. Use your words, talk it out. Some of us are too busy to have non-gaming friends.
I don't think that there are any complex hidden rules that need to be codified. The rules that apply here are basic rules of human interaction. While they aren't that complex by themselves, they do require a high degree of social intelligence. Pathfinder is a cooperative game, not a competitive game. While it's often not spelled out, there are actually a lot of mechanics that reward cooperation. (Admittedly there could be more and sometimes better implemented team-based abilities.) But if people deliberately ignore the cooperative character of the game, it's hardly the game's fault.
That being said, I think 'Not being a jerk' is a minimum requirement. We can be a lot more proactive than that-by establishing a culture of communication and feedback, expressing our interest in others, being mindful of each other's strengths and weaknesses, encouraging and rewarding cooperation, and generally being insightful, supportive, forthcoming, and inclusive. And we can lead by example both as GMs and players.
There is no secret set of complex rules.
Just the one simple one.1: Don't be a D***.
This is far, far, FAR more complex than you make it out to be.
Without a thorough understanding of the rules and how the various classes play, in many cases it's extremely counter-intuitive to... and I quote... 'not be a D***'
Not because the person has the mentality/attitude of that, but rather because the rules don't work the way one expects them to at first glance.
I disagree.
The goal of the game is for everyone to have fun.If you are having fun at the expense of the rest of the table you are being a D***.
Case in point:
I am well versed enough in the system to make some of the most broken builds possible.
I choose not to (even though seeing just how badly I can break a game is one type of fun I enjoy).
That is me not being a D***.
Or to put it another way...
You are not the only person at the table; show respect for the others.
There is no secret set of complex rules.
Just the one simple one.1: Don't be a D***.
This is far, far, FAR more complex than you make it out to be.
Without a thorough understanding of the rules and how the various classes play, in many cases it's extremely counter-intuitive to... and I quote... 'not be a D***'
Not because the person has the mentality/attitude of that, but rather because the rules don't work the way one expects them to at first glance.
I disagree.
The goal of the game is for everyone to have fun.
If you are having fun at the expense of the rest of the table you are being a D***.Case in point:
I am well versed enough in the system to make some of the most broken builds possible.
I choose not to (even though seeing just how badly I can break a game is one type of fun I enjoy).
That is me not being a D***.Or to put it another way...
You are not the only person at the table; show respect for the others.Damian... could you please step out of this thread? You're arguing against a homebrew thread intended to address a perceived issue. Saying you don't see the issue changes nothing.
For what it's worth, my very first campaign I was in my character completely and utterly dominated combat. Not because I intended to be a D***, but because I studied my own character and how to develop her while the rest of the party didn't. Totally innocent, totally disruptive.
Did you dial back once you noticed the power divide? Or change to a new character?
At the time I didn't understand that being more powerful was an issue. It's only in hindsight [and after a few conversations with the Co GMs] that I understood that my character was the reason they kept cranking the encounter levels up and auto-hitting the rest of the party.Did you dial back once you noticed the power divide? Or change to a new character?There is no secret set of complex rules.
Just the one simple one.1: Don't be a D***.
This is far, far, FAR more complex than you make it out to be.
Without a thorough understanding of the rules and how the various classes play, in many cases it's extremely counter-intuitive to... and I quote... 'not be a D***'
Not because the person has the mentality/attitude of that, but rather because the rules don't work the way one expects them to at first glance.
I disagree.
The goal of the game is for everyone to have fun.
If you are having fun at the expense of the rest of the table you are being a D***.Case in point:
I am well versed enough in the system to make some of the most broken builds possible.
I choose not to (even though seeing just how badly I can break a game is one type of fun I enjoy).
That is me not being a D***.Or to put it another way...
You are not the only person at the table; show respect for the others.Damian... could you please step out of this thread? You're arguing against a homebrew thread intended to address a perceived issue. Saying you don't see the issue changes nothing.
For what it's worth, my very first campaign I was in my character completely and utterly dominated combat. Not because I intended to be a D***, but because I studied my own character and how to develop her while the rest of the party didn't. Totally innocent, totally disruptive.
ok...
My point is no matter what "rules" we put forth here in this thread they are all going to boil down to "be respectful of the others at the table."If you try to codify it into individual dos and don'ts in order for it to comprehensive it will total well into the thousands (possibly the millions).
And in addition will create loopholes for the troll at the table to dance through.
Damien, I think the point is more along the lines of making scry-and-fry not work because most people accept that scry-and-fry is an unfun overly-broad solution and probably shouldn't be in the game.
And don't bother bringing up hard answers to scry-and-fry like Nondetection, because making every bad guy have always-on Nondetection to prevent unreasonable tactics is perceived as a sleight against the player who choose build their character around those tactics.
Dont Scry and fry
Dont bring a Hack & Slash to a Political game.Dont bring an "optimized" char to a casual group.
Dont bring a "there's an app for that" mage to the table.
Dont bring a char that can solo the campaign.
etc, etc, etc, ad nausea...
the list is never ending.
Be respectful of others. (this should not need to be further defined or detailed).
Just treat it as you would with any cooperative tabletop game.
Here's something an old wizard said in another thread in regard to all the unwritten rules that actually hold an RPG game/group together. While another person hinted that his group maintained balance between martial and caster power levels through meta-gaming, Lemmy really got me thinking with the following line:
Or we could wake up and insist on a rulebook that has everything people need in it to actually play. In other words, rules that actually reflect all these agreements we've evolved over the last 35 years.Obviously, the core rulebooks cover some of this stuff, but it's always very general "golden rule" kind of advice. "Don't be a jerk" and "Rule 0" stuff that comes off a lot like the old "keep trying" advice you got when you were young that really didn't help. So my question to everyone is: What sorts of things would you like to see in such a supplement? I'm talking about very specific tactics, rules, and guidelines that help you turn a handful of newbies -friends or strangers- into a thriving gaming group and keep it running smoothly for years. Share your wisdom with us, veterans!
Well, thanks for crediting me with that great line, but it was Kirth who said it not me. I do 120% agree with him, though.
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Bathe, or don't bother showing up.
Maybe it's unnecessary for you, but this isn't the case for everyone. What do you have to lose from them doing what may be necessary for them? If the answer is "nothing," then why are you even bothering with this thread?
Be respectful of others. (this should not need to be further defined or detailed).
The belief that further detail is "required" for some individuals is...
Disturbing but does not surprise me any longer.A few more from off the top of my head then...
Gnome is not a valid improvised weapon.
A one man band is not an appropriate bard instrument.
No starting with an AC higher than your age.
No using ten or more sourcebooks to make one character.
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Dont Scry and fry
Dont bring a Hack & Slash to a Political game.
Dont bring an "optimized" char to a casual group.
Dont bring a "there's an app for that" mage to the table.
Dont bring a char that can solo the campaign.
etc, etc, etc, ad nausea...the list is never ending.
I agree with everything on your list except the last part. There's probably enough of these little tidbits of gamer wisdom to assemble into a beginners guide to role-playing games. This is the kind of stuff people are talking about when they come here and make posts like, "How do I DM?" They're not asking how to roll d20s or how to add up attack bonuses. They're not asking how to be polite.
They're wondering what ratio of combat to interaction to put into their game. How big to make their campaign world. If they should use modules or custom content. How to properly play a mind-controlled character. What the hell "lawful neutral" really means. How to build not just an encounter, but an entire adventure so there's a little something for every play style.
And on the player side, people already know how to build characters who can swing greatswords and cast fireballs. They want to know how to make a character who complements a group, not dominate it (or detract from it). How to balance social skills with combat effectiveness. When and how to play a paladin or chaotic neutral character without pissing everyone off. How to separate IC and OOC knowledge, and why playing a character who doesn't instinctively know silver kills werewolves isn't necessarily a bad thing for the overall story.
Be respectful of others. (this should not need to be further defined or detailed).
Again, I disagree. Remember, not everyone who gets into RPGs is a 40-year-old adult who already made all their stupid teenage mistakes decades ago. Some of these kids are going to get into Pathfinder with childhood buddies or college friends and have bad experiences because they think hiding behind a character sheet works just as well as hiding beyond an anonymous World of Warcraft character. They're going to do stupid things that ruin games and get their friends mad at them. They could use some advice that teaches them that RPGs are team efforts, not competitive arenas.
For the record, I consider scry and fry to be a viable tactic and I even use it as a GM against the PCs occasionally (once or twice per campaign). It can be thwarted by different means (even a lead sheeting would work for a particularly cheap villain), it is not without risk (if things go south, you suddenly don't have any retreat options), and it opens up interesting story hooks (figuring out a villain's hidden identity).
I think the game becomes a lot more interesting once you start to accept that magic fundamentally changes encounter dynamics and roll with it. And, in my experience, access to powerful magic makes the PCs behave cocky and careless, which is really great. I get that not everybody likes it (you have to put more thought into encounter design, especially for high level adventures), but I love it.
So my advice would be: As a GM, be mindful of the PCs' abilities when you plan your adventures. You don't have to metagame, you just have to be aware which tactical and strategical options magic offers. A villain's plan doesn't need to be foolproof, but they should have several layers of defense in line with their resources, intelligence, and general level of paranoia.
And every gaming group should figure out for themselves which level of complexity they are comfortable with.
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Dont bring a Hack & Slash to a Political game.
And vice-versa. A 'face' or 'crafter' is going to be unhappy (and drag everyone else down with them, sometimes) in a never-ending Warhammer-esque dungeon-crawl.
Still, this seemed to be the basic premise of Vampire games. "We are going to play a city-based political intrigue game!" <Set shows up with an elderly Toreador art maven who uses Auspex to learn others secrets. Game devolves into endless fights, Sabbat attacks, werewolf attacks, PvP and a dozen vampires who've survived *centuries* all dying en masse the first week of the game. Set re-rolls a Brujah whose only discipline is Potence, because he likes his Toreador and her two page backstory too much to see her die as the meaty filling in this craptaco...>
Be respectful of others. (this should not need to be further defined or detailed).Again, I disagree. Remember, not everyone who gets into RPGs is a 40-year-old adult who already made all their stupid teenage mistakes decades ago. Some of these kids are going to get into Pathfinder with childhood buddies or college friends and have bad experiences because they think hiding...
The problem I have with this idea is I know many teens who are just getting into the hobby. They know the difference between trollish and respectful behavior.
There is a saying at my FLGS...
If you have to ask if something is disrespectful then it probably is.
Asking for tips on how to balance combat and non-combat scenes in an adventure or campaign, Asking how to deal with disruptive trollish players, Asking how to pad out an adventure polt, and asking how to "fix" a plot "derail" is fine (that is what the advice forum is for imo).
But trying to define in fine detail on a point for point basis what is and is not acceptable behavior at the table? That is an impossible task. As Amanuensis shows that will vary from table to table (no offense btw but I would leave a game where Scry and Fry were allowed as I find it to be unfun even with the "protections/counters" in place). Hence why the simple rule of "be respectful of the others at the table" is so much better a guide line to use.
If need be add in a second rule of "be aware of what the group considers fun."
What's scry and fry?
What's scry and fry?
This refers to a tactic wherein the party uses scrying magic, such as the scry spell, to find their enemies, watch them, then pop in via teleportation magic when their enemy is weak and the party is prepared, dodging all the encounters between the BBEG and the front door. The party then obliterates the BBEG and leaves with his loot, bypassing all the minions.
Watching someone with divination, the teleport in when their guard is down and nuke the s$!* out of them with everything they got, it can get annoying if it's a constant tactic :-)
As Amanuensis shows that will vary from table to table (no offense btw but I would leave a game where Scry and Fry were allowed as I find it to be unfun even with the "protections/counters" in place). Hence why the simple rule of "be respectful of the others at the table" is so much better a guide line to use.
If need be add in a second rule of "be aware of what the group considers fun."
Sure, feel free to disagree with my style of play! (I think we need to acknowledge this a bit more often, considering how heated some of the discussions on these boards got recently.) I would refrain from using such tactics if I didn't know my players better and I certainly wouldn't use them against players that I'd expect to feel uncomfortable with scry and fry.
I agree with you that many of these things are better addressed on a case-by-case basis. And I am somewhat baffled by the prevalent desire to put everything not related to game mechanics into a codified set of rules. It's like telling someone they can only use their toolbox to build a birdhouse. Of course, you can write a guide on how to build a birdhouse (and if it's well written, some people will find it very useful), but it won't comprise everything you can do with a toolbox.
That being said, I think group-specific rules have their uses in certain cases. I could see rules of social behavior for young or juvenile players (after all, it seems to work well in classrooms). For a campaign that deviates widely from some of the standard assumptions, it can be a good idea to sit together as a group and discuss some baselines to make sure everyone is on board. (I wrote a manifesto for a current sandbox campaign involving strong player agency and cooperative worldbuilding. Not everyone agreed with my ideas, but it turned out to be a good basis for discussion, which really helped us to define what we wanted as a group.)
What's scry and fry?This refers to a tactic wherein the party uses scrying magic, such as the scry spell, to find their enemies, watch them, then pop in via teleportation magic when their enemy is weak and the party is prepared, dodging all the encounters between the BBEG and the front door. The party then obliterates the BBEG and leaves with his loot, bypassing all the minions.
Oh, that. I never had much problem with it. There's plenty of mundane ways to counter it and it's easy for enemies to use it against the party. A smart enemy can use the party's scrying to lure them into a trap. The Big Bads in my campaign conceal their identities, have magical protection, and/or use doubles. You just need to stop having your mid-to-high level bad guys use low level strategies.
Here's something an old wizard said in another thread in regard to all the unwritten rules that actually hold an RPG game/group together. While another person hinted that his group maintained balance between martial and caster power levels through meta-gaming, Lemmy really got me thinking with the following line...
Just for the record, Lemmy was quoting me. It was a response to this comment from Shroud:
I've been playing D&D since the late 70's and Pathfinder since the original playtest phase. We have never had a problem with Martial characters being underpowered. That said, the spellcasters in our party practice something we like to call......COMMON COURTESY, and they do not do things that would invalidate the value of another player's character.
The full text of my response was as follows:
Here's the thing: I've been playing the same amount of time, and have come to realize that what you call "common courtesy" is in fact an elaborate series of gentleman's agreements, rooted in an in-depth knowledge of the game, that is almost totally opaque to newer players. And as we all admit, at some point the game fails if you fail to observe them -- but to add insult to injury, none of what you really have to do to get the game to work, long-term, is mentioned in the rules at all.
It struck me that, if the purpose is to put an insurmountable barrier up against a new generation of players, we've done extremely well. And we can keep smugly playing while the hobby dwindles and, eventually, Paizo goes under, when we old farts get too old to buy more game stuff from them.
Or we could wake up and insist on a rulebook that has everything people need in it to actually play. In other words, rules that actually reflect all these agreements we've evolved over the last 35 years. Doing so would not affect our games at all -- we could still keep playing like we were. Alternatively, we could insist on a rulebook that powers up the martial guys to match the casters -- and, by gentleman's agreement, you could ignore those new abilities, too, and keep on playing exactly as you are. In either case, the ONLY thing that changes is that you open up the hobby to new people, which is vital to its survival.
To be so adamantly and smugly opposed to this, as so many people of our generation are, is to wilfully ensure the destruction of the hobby that's given us so much enjoyment.
I repeat it here because people here are answering my response, broken-record-like, with the exact same comment it was a response to in the first place.
I've been working on a guide that focuses on maximizing fun, and most of it is about discussing and agreeing on what type of play you enjoy.
GM Advice:
Do your best to understand the rules and what aspects of the game you enjoy and why. I personally don't enjoy action denial and save-or-suck effects. I won't allow characters that are incapable of functioning with the group or as a part of the campaign setting. Every character is expected to be "special-forces" material, and be capable at what they do. You are part of an elite group that relies on each other for survival every day. Playing a "lone-wolf", psychopath, spoiled brat, revolting deviant, moron, jerk, or other non-team player will not be tolerated. Characters are generally not allowed to attack, target with hostile spells, or use adversarial skills on another PC. PCs are also expected to not steal from each other, or withhold information. All treasure discovered is considered group property until divided up. While I don't explicitly ban Evil characters, I don't really want to spend hundreds of hours of real time facilitating your character committing evil acts. It usually gets depressing fast. I won't allow player characters to make opposed rolls against each other (baring magical control)
I also have policy of no rules exploiting. Bringing a character to the table who is going to disrupt play, destroy verisimilitude, or otherwise squelch the fun of others is unacceptable, regardless of optimization level.
I expect the party to be able to handle the challenges of an adventure. They need to be able to participate in combats, heal injuries and conditions, talk to people, and a variety of other tasks. They don't have to do these things well, but they do have to be able to function in an adventuring environment.
If you click on my name, you can see what I have come up with so far.
Thoughts:
Campaigns should be -about- something. Questing Knights, or novice priests navigating clerical bureaucracy, or a farm boy whose destiny is to defeat the evil king.
The flip side is that every campaign is also NOT about something. So no, your questing knight cannot be a robot who rides a dinosaur. Cool idea, save it for the next campaign.
As a player, you shouldn't be trying to make the world's most powerful character. You should be aiming for a power level that is identical to the other players. Gm's, you should be making sure this occurs, or that notebook of ideas can be tossed aside right now. Limit options that are high powered, boost ones that are known to be weak.
Continue adjusting as the campaign goes on. When the players are evenly matched, raising or lowering difficulty is a snap. When a team consists of hawk girl and superman, there' s nothing you can do, challenging one means boring the other. If you ramp up the difficulty too much, Hawkgirl just dies.
When characters are being created, if a player describes their character as a mysterious loner, just say no. This is a team sport, and if you don't want to be part of a team, go home.
And don't eat another player's lunch. Everyone should have a chance to shine. The same chance, in fact, so ask yourself, have I been using too much/not enough of the spotlight?
Ex) I want to make an alien from an advanced race, who is stranded on Earth, and who can fly. I'll call her 'hawkgirl'
'Cool idea. I'll do that too, and I'll also be super strong, and invulnerable to stuff. And I'll have laser eyes.'
*crumples character into a ball*
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So, it's often helpful to think about every other player's central concept. Make sure yours is different.
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I've been working on a guide that focuses on maximizing fun, and most of it is about discussing and agreeing on what type of play you enjoy.
** spoiler omitted **
If you click on my name, you can see what I have come up with so far.
This is all really good stuff, Fergie, and exactly what this thread is about. Thanks!
This is all really good stuff, Fergie, and exactly what this thread is about. Thanks!I've been working on a guide that focuses on maximizing fun, and most of it is about discussing and agreeing on what type of play you enjoy.
** spoiler omitted **
If you click on my name, you can see what I have come up with so far.
ah so it is things of that nature you seek...
5 Simple Rules to keep in mind as a player or gm.
#1: What is good for one is good for all.
Also known as the Goose/Gander rule. It basically means any Power/skill/spell/gear the PCs have access to so do the NPCs. (and Vice Verse)
#2: Actions have consequences.
Pretty self explanatory... every action (even good ones) will produce some kind of result beyond the immediate. The Party Kills that NPC that had the secret information to defeat the Bad Guy? Now they do not have access to that information. The party chases a petty tyrant from a town? The tale of their good deed spreads. The town folk are grateful; etc... (Remember consequences do not have to be bad things good things can come about as well).
#3: Events do not stagnate.
The Party chooses to ignore a plot thread? This is not a video game; The villain is not going to wait for the heroes to "get around" to him; He is going to continue with his plans. What could this mean for our heroes? The Big Bad Evil Guy might be bigger and badder than he would have been if they had followed it when it was first presented. Or it could be that another band of heroes defeated him stealing the players thunder.
#4: The GM is god (to a point).
Regardless of what some players would have you think; the GM really is god (of his game world); he controls every thing in the game universe except the PCs. Arguing with him over a decision is tantamount to telling the gods they are running the universe wrong. (see rule #2)
But GMs are human and therefore fallible. If a Player disagrees with you give them 5 minutes to calmly and rationally present their case. This does not mean you (the GM) have to change your call but you do have to give it a listen and actively consider it.
Players if the you are still not happy with the GMs call; do not continue to disrupt the game; this does nothing to further your case. Instead accept the call for the remainder of the game and then discuss it in further depth after the session is over.
Both sides need to remember that calm rational discussion will go farther than a shouting match will.
#5: Have Fun.
Do I really need to explain this?
The 4 phrases of a Good GM
You want what?...
1: ok.
You have considered the ramifications of the players request and do not foresee any issues cropping up.
2: Ok, But...
You Foresee a possible issue that can be fixed by a simple rider to the players request.
3: No, But how about?
The request is just too imbalancing, out there, silly, or clashes with your setting parameters. But you have something that does fit the core of the players desires.
4: NO!
The player has asked you to ignore the fun of everyone else at the table (including your own) and cater to his/her whims exactly.
Use of option 4 should be rare. But when used DO NOT ever try to defend your use of it with anything more than "Because I do not want that in my game world." (anything else just gives the "problem player" an excuse to try to argue why they are "right.")
If done properly your players should end up nervous when you use option 1 because it means you have seen how their "special" can create complications for them during play.
Here's something an old wizard said in another thread in regard to all the unwritten rules that actually hold an RPG game/group together. While another person hinted that his group maintained balance between martial and caster power levels through meta-gaming, Lemmy really got me thinking with the following line...Just for the record, Lemmy was quoting me
I even clarified that myself. I try not to steal anyone's credits... At least not when they can easily see it and prove it was their idea! XD
Okay, a few of the ones I can think of:
- When creating a character, try to fit a niche. You can be a jack-of-all-trades if you want, but if you realize your character is a master-of-all-trades, then you're not leaving any room for your fellow players to move into.
- When interacting with another player/GM and frustration comes up, take a step-back, breathe, and try to calmly navigate the issue. We all get passionate about our games and characters - let cooler heads prevail.
- The GM is not your enemy, he/she is there to create a fun game for everyone (including the GM.) Generally speaking the GM is spending hours and dollars trying to make the next session/story arc/campaign AWESOME. If you don't like the way the campaign is going, that's fine, but voice it in such a way as not to disparage the GM and all of the work they put in.
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A solid thing to do is to have something of an alliance system between players. This is NOT a game of Paranoia. inter party backstabs should be very much a limited affair. This is especially true for evil Characters. Just Because your character is a servent of the evil powers and generally a Villain does not give your character the right to backstab the party, in the same way that an evil memeber of the party should not be left out to rot by the good characters. Work together, help each other, foster some connections to the players and help them through this. Also, being evil and being allied with the villain are 2 very different things. Remember this.