I am building a reach barbarian/rogue that is going to utilize the stand still feat...
I am using unchained rogue with elven branched spear and agile maneuvers.
How else can I improve my CMB to make sure I keep all the baddies away from me?
I am also using the lunge feet to further extend my range.
Thanks!
Doesn't stand still only work on adjacent squares though?
Doesn't stand still only work on adjacent squares though?
Oh no! I just read it again. I think you are correct. D:
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Lunge will extend your range on your turn only. It will not increase your threatened range for AoOs.
Also, Stand Still specifies that it apples when a foe moves through your adjacent squares, not your threatened ones. Unfortunately, this means you will get no benefit from it with a reach weapon like the elven branch spear as you do not threaten adjacent with it.
Edit: Ninja'd again.
Hmm, so I am better off investing in trip or disarm then for my AOOs.
That means combat expertise, improved trip, etc. ouch. That's a long list of feats. =/
You don't need Improved Trip with a reach build, since you usually won't be threatened to provoke when you attempt it.
On the other hand, a 2-level dip into Lore Warden fighter will give you Combat Expertise on top of your 2 regular bonus feats, not to mention lots of juicy class skills.
You don't need Improved Trip with a reach build, since you usually won't be threatened to provoke when you attempt it.
On the other hand, a 2-level dip into Lore Warden fighter will give you Combat Expertise on top of your 2 regular bonus feats, not to mention lots of juicy class skills.
Oh good idea! I honestly hadn't considered dipping into fighter at all.
I was thinking though that I could eventual get to Greater Trip, so that when they provoke, I drop them at a distance, then get an additional AOO when they drop prone...
Again, kind of feat heavy...
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Before investing in Trip, think about what type of campaign/foes this character will be facing. If you are in an urban environment fighting humanoids that can't fly, it works really well. If you are fighting flyers or big, possibly multi-legged or legless non-humanoids monsters, then most things will have massive bonuses against being tripped or outright immunity and you will have wasted those feats.
The only effective Stand Still is that granted by one of the Orders for cavaliars...order of the Hound? The one that is on foot and protects the peasantry.
That's the original stand still from 3e, forcing a reflex save against damage to move. Far more effective then the current feat.
The power of stand still in 3e gave birth to a whole fighter build based around it. Combine with Thicket of Blades to always get your AoO, and with reach you could lock down ANYONE.
==Aelryinth
Good point about the type of foes we might face...
So if I avoid the trip chain, what would people suggest for feats?
Pursuing an alternate route would free up 2-4 feats. At 11th level...
I am already picking up Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Power Attack, Lunge.
I am an urban barbarian 6 and scout rogue 5 mix.
I am picking up the beast totem rage powers so that I threaten the 5 ft. in front of me and can swap out when need be.
I'll list the build thus far in a minute.
The only effective Stand Still is that granted by one of the Orders for cavaliars...order of the Hound? The one that is on foot and protects the peasantry.
That's the original stand still from 3e, forcing a reflex save against damage to move. Far more effective then the current feat.
The power of stand still in 3e gave birth to a whole fighter build based around it. Combine with Thicket of Blades to always get your AoO, and with reach you could lock down ANYONE.
==Aelryinth
That sounds beautiful. Too bad it's not viable in Pathfinder. D:
Ok so here is the build so far... Never posted a build please excuse the format.
Elf Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager 6 + Unchained Scout Rogue 5:
Str- 13
Dex - 22
Con - 14
Int - 9
Wis - 12
Cha - 7
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Hp: 6d12+12 + 5d8+10 + 11 toughness + 11 favored class hp
Ac: 24 [+2 leather armor (+4 total), +6 dex, +1 buckler (+2 total) +2 ]RoP and +1 while raging
DR: 3/-
Fort: +9
Ref: +13
Will: +5
Speed: 30 ft.
Init: +6
BaB: +9/+1 (Not sure on this with multi-classing)
CMB: +10
CMD: 26
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56 Skill points allocated mainly to Stealth, Acro, Sleight of Hand, and Perception
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Feats:
Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Lunge, Toughness (and 2 more to be determined)
Rage Powers:
Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, (and 1 more to be determined)
Rogue Talents:
Befuddling Strike (to boost AC) ( and 1 more to be determined)
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Special:
1/2 Barb level DR. (DR 3/-)
Controlled Rage (+4 dex)
Evasion
3d6 Sneak attack
Scout's Charge - sneak attack dmg. on a charge
Debilitating Injury
Rogue's Edge Skills (not sure which one yet)
Trap Finding
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Attack(s):
Elven-Branched Spear - (+1 Speed, Impact)
Full attack: +16/+16/+10: 2d6+10 : 20x3 critical + 3d6 sneak attack for flank or charge
Raging: +18/+18/+12: 2d6+13 : 20x3 critical + 3d6 sneak attack
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Items:
+2 RoP, +1 Cloak of Res, +2 Leather Armor, +1 speed, impact elven-branched spear, + 2 dex item (looking for suggestions for gear as well!)
Hmm. Not sure if I missed anything. Thanks for the input. :)
Bumpity bump
Ah yes that was a mistake.
I am going beast totem eventually, but I need a higher barbarian level to qualify, I believe...
When I get greater beast totem, I believe I will be able to make a full attack on my charge, applying a +2 to hit to all attacks as well as the 3d6 sneak attack damage to each attack that connects. All from 10-15 feet away.
8th level ability, Cavalier, Order of the SHield. Just need to hit and damage with a normal attack to stand still someone, no CMD roll.
==Aelryinth
Cavaliers are great - thanks for the idea. I'm going to stick with the rogue/barbarian though. Maybe a few levels of fighter in there. :D
Not to be a wet blanket again, but you should check with your DM if claws allow you to threaten adjacent squares while holding a twohanded weapon (making beast totem kind of meh if not). The ac from a buckler also doesn't come into play if you are using a twohanded weapon and provides a -1 to hits.
I think your BAB is 9 for a full attack of 9/4 before any modifiers btw. IIRC, you just add whatever the chart says your BAB is for the levels you have in each class (so 6 from barbarian and 3 from rogue).
I would change your spear to either a +3 or a +2 fortuitous. With more AOP's than you can shake a stick at, getting multiple attacks in on an AOP once per round is preeetty nice, especially when you have them to spare.
As a reach combatant, I don't know how useful it is to charge (looking at the scout archetype for rogue). In my experience it is better to be close enough for them to provoke, but not close enough for them to just 5ft step into the doughnut hole and start the 5ft step dance. If you have reliable enlarge, then it doesn't matter because you can charge and still be too far away for them to be able to just step in.
Unexpected strike would be a nice rage power since you can just declare you are taking an AOP because you can. Once per rage though.
What Imbicatus said about the campaign/foes is still relevant even though you aren't playing a tripper. If you are going to be dungeon crawling or something the whole campaign, you might find yourself a little cramped. There are obviously ways around it, but just something to take note of.
All in all this looks like a really fun build! One of the characters I am playing right now is a reach barbarian and AOP's are sooooo awesome. I frequently get more attacks between turns than I do in a full-attack AND ALL AT FULL BAB. Hope you have a great time using this character! :D
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The only effective Stand Still is that granted by one of the Orders for cavaliars...order of the Hound? The one that is on foot and protects the peasantry.
That's the original stand still from 3e, forcing a reflex save against damage to move. Far more effective then the current feat.
The power of stand still in 3e gave birth to a whole fighter build based around it. Combine with Thicket of Blades to always get your AoO, and with reach you could lock down ANYONE.
==Aelryinth
The 8th level ability from Order of the Shield is what you would want.
Stem the Tide (Ex)
At 8th level, the cavalier receives Stand Still as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from moving, a cavalier with this ability can elect to make a normal attack instead. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must stop moving, just as if the cavalier had made a successful combat maneuver check.
I believe it would work with reach weapons, as it grants Stand Still but not contingent on the use of it for Stem the Tide to work.
Thanks for the advice Gummy!
I am still thinking speed is a better choice for the weapon enhancement, because I get an attack at my full bonus, whereas I would already get 6 AOO/round normally, and the Fortuitous, while nice, is at a -5 penalty.
I am counting on the lunge to be balanced out by the charge, so no bonus or penalty, and charge with that. They would still be at 15 ft. and I can poke them when they try to move towards me the following round. If I charge and have a 15 ft. reach, I can charge 10 ft. and hit them from 15 ft. from that location, unless I have misinterpreted something.
The dungeon crawl/cramped space was another reason/concern why beast totem sounded good, because I can swap to those or, heck, even a greatsword or something if need be. Never being totally disarmed is good. I would assume that I could simply hold my spear in one hand and threaten immediately/freely by letting one hand go if someone got close... Maybe not, but I would let it go in my game.
I'll add Unexpected Strike - that looks like a fun one. This should be a fun character! :D
Wow, that cavalier ability is beastly!
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Good point about the type of foes we might face...
I am an urban barbarian 6 and scout rogue 5 mix.
I am picking up the beast totem rage powers so that I threaten the 5 ft. in front of me and can swap out when need be.
Unless I'm missing something the totem will grant 2 claw attacks, meaning you won't threaten at both ranges and will have to drop your spear to fully use them.
I'd consider a dip into Brawler (Snakebite) for the UAS ability (threatening both ranges simultaneously without dropping your spear) and an extra +1d6 sneak attack never hurts either.
Without the need for Beast totem you can limit your barb level to 4.
The only real loss is the 1/- DR but you are trying to keep baddies away from you anyway.
This still gives you a whole other level as well. Bloodrager for the Fast Movement you traded away and access to spell trigger devices?
Anyone know of a different way to get a full attack on a charge besides beast totem?
I don't want to drop the beast totem if there is no other way to get the full attack on a charge.
I like the Brawler dip a lot - excellent suggestion!
Hmm looking like beast totem is my best bet for this build. Thanks for the list, Imbicatus.
Well upon reflection, I don't know if that route is worth the time it would take it to come online.
I wouldn't get 3 attacks until around 17th level because of the rogue levels, so the Great Beast Totem Investment seems less appealing, as the AP will likely be over or close to over by then.
Maybe the Superstitious route, as mentioned previously, would help and sure up my Will save.
Anyone know of a different way to get a full attack on a charge besides beast totem?
Vulpine Pounce - Kitsune only
Pummeling Charge - Unarmed Strikes only
Wild Shape - Druid only
Unchained Monk Flying Kick.
There is an avenger talent in the Vigilante Playtest.
Claw Pounce - Catfolk only
For a Cavalier (which we have mentioned enough to be a main option here): Coordinated charge (teamwork feat)
This feat allows you to do a charge as an immediate action when an ally with the same teamwork feat (or...you know...benefiting from your tactician ability) does a charge. Since that is a move made outside of your turn...it means you are most likely going to end up next to the enemy when you turn comes around.
So it is a nice enough pseudo pounce. Especially nice if you have an animal companion (mount, one of the various trade outs on archetypes) that delays its actions until it synchs up with your turn (or if your GM just lets you work on the same initiative- fairly common playstyle).
And it also benefits your allies. Everyone can zoom around by doing this if you use tactician. Makes that one feat that gives extra uses for tactician extremely appealing.
The only problem I can see here is that you need BAB+10 for this feat, and I am pretty sure tactician only works with the bonus feats you get from that ability. Since you get your second feat for tactician at level 9, I would say this is a good excuse to take a 1 level dip into another full BAB class (or 2 level dip into any other class) so you can get everything set up properly.
Going to update that armor to Celestial armor as well. :D
+3 chainmail with a +8 dex max is sweeeet!
Edit:
Or maybe Rhino Hide... D:
Hard to argue with an extra 2d6 piled on top of 2d6 weapon + dex, etc. and 3d6 sneak, 4d6 with a brawler level.
The 8th level ability from Order of the Shield is what you would want.
Stem the Tide (Ex)
At 8th level, the cavalier receives Stand Still as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from moving, a cavalier with this ability can elect to make a normal attack instead. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must stop moving, just as if the cavalier had made a successful combat maneuver check.
I believe it would work with reach weapons, as it grants Stand Still but not contingent on the use of it for Stem the Tide to work.
That totally does not work. Steam the tide says
Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from moving
witch clearly refers to the CMB check caused by Stand Still, since normal AOO don't cause said check.
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I believe it would work with reach weapons, as it grants Stand Still but not contingent on the use of it for Stem the Tide to work.
No.
At 8th level, the cavalier receives Stand Still as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from moving, a cavalier with this ability can elect to make a normal attack instead. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target must stop moving, just as if the cavalier had made a successful combat maneuver check.
The only way to make a combat maneuver check to stop a creature from moving is to use Stand Still. The only way to use Stand Still is if they're adjacent. So you can't replace your combat maneuver check unless they're adjacent.
Have you thought of using Wolf Style for keeping enemies at bay?
Wolf Style (Combat, Style)
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge (nature) 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, whenever you deal at least 10 points of damage to a foe with an attack of opportunity, that foe's base speed decreases by 5 feet for 1 round. The foe's base speed decreases by an additional 5 feet for every 5 points of damage your attack deals beyond 10. If this penalty meets or exceeds the remaining number of feet your foe can move during its turn, you may attempt a combat maneuver check to trip your foe as an free action.
With good reach and plenty of damage nobody is going to get very close
Wow that's a nice feat, especially in combination with the brawler dip.
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That totally does not work. Steam the tide says
Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from movingwitch clearly refers to the CMB check caused by Stand Still, since normal AOO don't cause said check.
and
The only way to make a combat maneuver check to stop a creature from moving is to use Stand Still. The only way to use Stand Still is if they're adjacent. So you can't replace your combat maneuver check unless they're adjacent.
You can make a combat manuever (Trip, Disarm, or Stand Still) with an AOO. I read "can elect to make a normal attack instead" as you can't use a combat manuever. I have a feeling of more importance is the meaning of "normal attack" and if AOO's qualify.
I argue that the Cavalier isn't using Stand Still, he is using Stem the Tide that states X happens if Y happens and I'm more than willing to discuss this in its own thread as I didn't see this fleshed out in the forums anywhere other than a few builds suggesting it.
I notice you elect to selectively address only half the quote. I'll copy again in case you have missed it. Steam the Tide says
Instead of making a combat maneuver check to stop the creature from moving
witch refers to a specific CMB check, one that is made to stop a creature from moving, not any single CMB check you ever make. I only know of one, and it's the one granted by Stand Still. And requires said enemy to be adjacent.
I'm going to post the "completed" build this evening for you guys to critique and review. I am looking forward to reading what you all have to say!
It's going to be a FUN character.
:D