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Yeah, and let's not forget that the TWF Fighter also needs a boatload of Dexterity to even qualify for the TWF feats, which means he probably had to either shell out feats or gold in order to get Dex-to-damage with his weapons to mitigate that (while the Magus gets his TWF for free, even if he's Strength-based). The Magus gets his boatload of attacks on top of a charge for the low price of a single spell slot, and with a bit more expenditure (what is it, 1 point from his Arcane Pool?) he's got nearly as much to-hit as any Full BAB guy.
Without Pounce or an equivalent (like Greater Bladed Dash), there's really no good way to take advantage of TWF's 2-7 attacks a round consistently besides standing still and flailing at stuff. Unless you're a spellcaster or a barbarian.
So what do you do? You either make the one hit they DO get worthwhile (like Path of War maneuvers) or you give martials options to move and full attack (the early D&D option). You give them neat toys that spellcasters can't just overpower or outright steal.
artful dodge can mitigate it somewhat if you're insane and have 17-19 int on a fighter.
Humor me here. Show me the text in a rulebook that states that this is a case because I've never been able to find it.I love how no NPCs ever question the person who cast an obviously evil spell, and the other party members just accept him doing it.Just end the 8 minute day. Problem solved.Wizard: What my Bloody Skeletons can keep going, why are you slacking off Fighters? Is your HP really such an important resource? We shouldn't have to stop just cause you are out of resources, I say we keep going.lord don't make this an alignment discussion
because there's nothing inherently evil about using undead minions, except maybe in that you desecrate a corpse.
Sorry, in PF animating undead involves recalling a spark of their soul, enslaving it, and then infusing it with negative energy in a torturous manner while binding it to servitude.
Yes, quite evil in PF.
==Aelryinth
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.Resurrection requires the undead to have been destroyed
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.Therefore, something is preventing the soul from returning to the body because the person has been animated.
However, if you cut off a dead guy's finger and then cast resurrection on that finger, there's nothing stopping you from animating the old body.
@Bandw2
Legendary mount should function as a follower from the leadership feat. Base mount CR (not HD) + awaken + class levels (added as character sees fit) = follower level. Leadership score of martial = level+BAB+misc
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Failing that, feats that work off/synergize with specific class abilities, like Bravery or armor training, so they do one thing for people without them, and something much better for people with them.
Like iron will, improving by +1 per point of Bravery, and such.
==Aelryinth
Funny you should mention that...
The Genius Guide to Bravery Feats keys off the Fighter's Bravery class feature, and presents feats that allow the fighter to do things like make an enemy bleed and slip in their own blood, leap through an enemy's teleportation effect as an immediate action following them to their destination, or spin their weapon to deflect an enemy's AoE spell effect. There's also feats that help the Fighter participate out of combat, like Fearsome Reputation which adds twice his Bravery bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
Endzeitgeist gave it 5 out of 5 stars plus seal of approval in his review.
Unless he has to move more than 5 feet to reach the target.You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)Keep in mind that that Magus is using a "max BAB" that's only 3/4 of the full martial, who coudl be getting even more attacks if he's a fully developed two weapon fighter. Not to mention having more attacks because of his higher BAB. A well trained high level fighter pretty much gets all the above as well. (who says Fighters can't be hasted?) A two weapon fighter who trains up the two weapon fighting tree can be getting a whole bushel of attacks, without expending a spell to do it.
Provoking AoO doing so, etc...
People say a lot of things, but don't realize the Figthers/Martial would need 18 in all stats from the start, and even more bonus feats.
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Failing that, feats that work off/synergize with specific class abilities, like Bravery or armor training, so they do one thing for people without them, and something much better for people with them.
Like iron will, improving by +1 per point of Bravery, and such.
==Aelryinth
Funny you should mention that...
The Genius Guide to Bravery Feats keys off the Fighter's Bravery class feature, and presents feats that allow the fighter to do things like make an enemy bleed and slip in their own blood, leap through an enemy's teleportation effect as an immediate action following them to their destination, or spin their weapon to deflect an enemy's AoE spell effect. There's also feats that help the Fighter participate out of combat, like Fearsome Reputation which adds twice his Bravery bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
Endzeitgeist gave it 5 out of 5 stars plus seal of approval in his review.
Funny, when I read Aelryinth's post my first thought was "didn't Ssalaran do something like that for Bravery?" and there you are.
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Failing that, feats that work off/synergize with specific class abilities, like Bravery or armor training, so they do one thing for people without them, and something much better for people with them.
Like iron will, improving by +1 per point of Bravery, and such.
==Aelryinth
Funny you should mention that...
The Genius Guide to Bravery Feats keys off the Fighter's Bravery class feature, and presents feats that allow the fighter to do things like make an enemy bleed and slip in their own blood, leap through an enemy's teleportation effect as an immediate action following them to their destination, or spin their weapon to deflect an enemy's AoE spell effect. There's also feats that help the Fighter participate out of combat, like Fearsome Reputation which adds twice his Bravery bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
Endzeitgeist gave it 5 out of 5 stars plus seal of approval in his review.
I have your book, you made a gift of it to me. :)
But Feats that work off Bravery aren't exactly what I was referring to here, although very close.
The Bravery feats are nice, but my fighter needs better saves, AND has to maintain his offensive ability. The ability to follow someone through a teleport is so situational as to be rarely viable, and having someone slip on a pool of blood is like Dirty Trick or Improved Trip, but not as versatile, and gets less effective against non-humanoids, etc.
I'm talking about things like:
Iron Will: +2 to Will saves. If you have Bravery, +1 additional for each point of Bravery. Add your current Expertise penalty and your Defensive Fighting/Total Defense AC bonus, as bonuses to your Will saves, if they do not already apply.
Lightning Reflexes: +2 To reflex saves.
If you have Armor Training: This bonus improves by +1 per Armor Training level. Add your current Expertise penalty and your Defensive Fighting/Total Defense AC bonus, as bonuses to your Reflex saves, if they do not already apply. Additionally:
If you also have Combat Reflexes, +2 to your allowed AoO's. If also you have Improved Init, +2 to Init.
If you also have Dodge, your Dodge AC bonus improves by +1 per level of armor lighter then you are proficient in, instead of just +1. Your Mobility feat bonus to AC improves by +2.
Skill Focus: +3,+6 at 10th level. If it is an Int, Wis, or Cha-based skill, add your Bravery bonus. If you have Sneak Attack dice, add +1 per Sneak Attack die to this skill as a Competency bonus. If you have either Bravery or Sneak Attack dice, add your Expertise bonus as well, to the maximum of the higher of those numbers.
Improved Initiative; +4 Init. Add your Bravery bonus and number of Sneak Attack dice to this number, the latter as a competency bonus.
Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC. IF you have shield proficiency but are not using a shield, increase the bonus to +2. IF you are wearing (or not wearing) armor at least one category lighter then you are proficient in, increase the Dodge bonus by +1. Change your Armor Training bonus to max Dex as a straight Dodge bonus to AC.
Expertise: You may sacrifice Th for AC, as normal.
For each point of Expertise you have, you do not provoke an AoO with one kind of special maneuver. Your bonus with that maneuver automatically increases by your Expertise modifier. Your CMD against that maneuver also increases by your Expertise modifier. (leading to 5 improved special maneuvers with +5 on each, without spending 15 feats!)
Every time you gain a point of Bravery, you gain another class skill of your choice, and another skill point per class level that has Bravery.
If you are wearing no armor, you automatically gain your Expertise bonus to AC without sacrificing TH to do so.
If you have Bravery, you may use INt, Wis or Cha 13 to qualify for Expertise.
You add your Expertise modifier to your Total Defense AC bonus.
You do not have to be in combat to gain your Expertise or Defender bonuses to AC, but you must be in combat (i.e. initiative has been rolled) and your weapon must be in hand and ready.
If you have a Guardian weapon in hand and ready, your Expertise penalty to hit also applies as a bonus to all saving throws automatically.
Combat Reflexes: 1+dex mod AoO's, etc. This is increased by your Expertise bonus. Treat your Delay action in combat as a Readied Action, if you define the trigger. YOu may do this with a Standard or Similar Action at Bravery +1, and a Full Attack or similar action at Bravery +2.
Fleet: +5 move. If you have armor training, this bonus is multiplied by your Armor Training bonus (so, +10 if +2 armor training, etc).
Etc. Take a standard feat, that everyone needs or could use, and make it into something people WANT to take, that synergizes with class features. Combat feats synergize with class abilities to free fighters from the tyranny of high stats, and make combat feats better for them then others.
Expertise becomes what it should be - a feat that showcases what expert fighters are capable of. Not a th/AC tradeoff that doesn't speak to ANY intelligent combatant as a sophisticated bunch of training.
This becomes less a bunch of new Techniques (like the Bravery book feats are), then an expansion and redefining of existing ones...and makes fighters and rogues something to be reckoned with by synergizing with class features. It turns feats into the equivalent of class features when used with ROgues and Fighters.
==Aelryinth
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Pathfinder Unchained! has several answers for this as well. Keep in mind that with out spell expenditure, Magi and everyone else doing melee are in the same boat.Unless he has to move more than 5 feet to reach the target.You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)Keep in mind that that Magus is using a "max BAB" that's only 3/4 of the full martial, who coudl be getting even more attacks if he's a fully developed two weapon fighter. Not to mention having more attacks because of his higher BAB. A well trained high level fighter pretty much gets all the above as well. (who says Fighters can't be hasted?) A two weapon fighter who trains up the two weapon fighting tree can be getting a whole bushel of attacks, without expending a spell to do it.'Without spell expenditure.'
That's the mentality that GOT us this problem in the first place.
Not everyone sees the problem you do. For one thing, I've yet to see this so-called narrative power gap, especially in the 1-13th level range. Yes, wizards can cast teleport spells, but that's nothing more than a momentary gimmick, a general party aid which is the reason you tolerate their worthlessness in melee.
As for games above 13th level, you get into the realm of extreme table variance and campaign idiosyncracy that general observations lose even more value.
Lol what?
Teleport a gimmick thay does not give narrative power? Riiiiiight. How does having the ability to bypass huge heaps of distractions and just right to the core problem immediately vs having to spend a week trekking through the mountains NOT narrative power? You are literally changing the story. Lord of the Rings would not have been a Story if Gandalf could teleport. THAT IS NARRATIVE POWER. and martials have damn near 0 narrative power
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Yes, but using teleport is a group decision. Most of the utility spells inure to a group benefit and permit them to explore areas they othwise could not.
EXACTLY! It allows them to go places they could not before and trivializes other issues. Guess what that is called? NARRATIVE POWER. The fact that ou either need to completwly build with the wizard in mind or have him blow through your carefully crafted campaign is narrative power.
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You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Gandalf COULD teleport, but was not allowed to because nonintervention nonsense. That's neither here nor there, though.
Really, spells give wildly more narrative power than mundane solutions do. They're versatile, can be used for numerous things, and can even be used to do things they're not specifically designed to do. They are limited by uses a day, yes, but that doesn't really stay a problem for very long.
But when people try and deny the fact that there IS a disparity, that's just willful ignorance. You're seriously telling me that your level 1 Fighter is every bit as effective and versatile as the level 1 Wizard? And that it doesn't get worse at every level past that point?
Because I have multiple friends who started 3.X games as Fighters and Rogues and spent the entire time wondering why they're even here, when their jobs were rendered completely moot by the party spellcaster(s). ACCIDENTALLY. WITH NO ILL WILL INTENDED. Just using their class features, and not even optimally.
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Gandalf COULD teleport, but was not allowed to because nonintervention nonsense. That's neither here nor there, though.
Arguments about Gandalf really being an outsider with SLA's aside, Gandalf really is a great example of a caster who only avoids disrupting the storyline by deliberately limiting himself; Lord of the Rings does not work as a narrative if Gandalf does not hop around on one leg with both hands tied behind his back. The one time we see Gandalf actually use his abilities, he ties with a Balor and comes back as British Jesus.
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Pathfinder Unchained! has several answers for this as well. Keep in mind that with out spell expenditure, Magi and everyone else doing melee are in the same boat.Unless he has to move more than 5 feet to reach the target.You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)Keep in mind that that Magus is using a "max BAB" that's only 3/4 of the full martial, who coudl be getting even more attacks if he's a fully developed two weapon fighter. Not to mention having more attacks because of his higher BAB. A well trained high level fighter pretty much gets all the above as well. (who says Fighters can't be hasted?) A two weapon fighter who trains up the two weapon fighting tree can be getting a whole bushel of attacks, without expending a spell to do it.'Without spell expenditure.'
That's the mentality that GOT us this problem in the first place.
Not everyone sees the problem you do. For one thing, I've yet to see this so-called narrative power gap, especially in the 1-13th level range. Yes, wizards can cast teleport spells, but that's nothing more than a momentary gimmick, a general party aid which is the reason you tolerate their worthlessness in melee.
As for games above 13th level, you get into the realm of extreme table variance and campaign idiosyncracy that general observations lose even more value.
Now, see, I think you're valuing things kinda weirdly here.
Value in melee ain't hard to come by. Druids turn into melee monsters for free as a class feature whenever they...
A great account of the situation and what is at stake.
I'm still wondering where the solution lies, though, and whether a simple enough solution can be found.
I agree there is a gap between martials and casters, in particular full casters, with regard to narrative power. Partial casters seem to fill the space between them. IIRC, not so long ago, there was only the bard in that situation. Now we have a plethora of partial casters.
The game, as I understand it, was about cooperation. The four basic roles were meant to complement each other, but as the list of spells got longer, toe-stepping became an issue.
Narrative power or problem solving includes many things and should increase with level in depth, and broadness, but to an extent. That extent should be regulated by avoiding too much toe-stepping.
Now, with all those new spells, and archetypes and options and traits and feats and partial casting classes and hybrid classes, we're a long way from the four boxes with clear borders. Everything is fuzzy and everybody can do a little bit of everything, except for some classes.
Now, I first thought: "Let's increase the narrative power of martials!" Which to me would mean things like: gestalting some classes, thereby turning them into hybrid classes, opening skills unlocked for those classes and work through that (climb can get you a climb speed for example), or adding heroic paths (from the Midnight setting) to those classes.
Then I thought: "Do I want every class to do everything? Hell no! Best is to keep those casters in line!" This to me means removing a lot of spells that increase toe-stepping like knock, summon monster, etc. Another way is to remove the full casters from my games. Yet another way is to play E7 or something.
Now? I'm not so sure. I would guess that a bit of both might be what's required.
@ Dreaming Warforged, I partially agree with you, but...
I would increase the ammount of spells in some schools/levels, switch some spells to different schools, then disallow Universalist, and enforce "Forbidden Schools" as, well, actually Forbidden.
@ Dreaming Warforged, I partially agree with you, but...
I would increase the ammount of spells in some schools/levels, switch some spells to different schools, then disallow Universalist, and enforce "Forbidden Schools" as, well, actually Forbidden.
Interesting possibilities. Those would fall in the 'reduce the gap by limiting casters' no? What do you mean by increasing the amount of spells in some schools? Can you give me an example?
Interesting possibilities. Those would fall in the 'reduce the gap by limiting casters' no? What do you mean by increasing the amount of spells in some schools? Can you give me an example?@ Dreaming Warforged, I partially agree with you, but...
I would increase the ammount of spells in some schools/levels, switch some spells to different schools, then disallow Universalist, and enforce "Forbidden Schools" as, well, actually Forbidden.
More Spells of X level in certain Schools, since certain schools have less Spells of certain Levels at times (universal aside) than others.
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Why not for a lot of the combat feats change the wording on them and write in something like "A fighter qualifies for this feat at X level"
Where X is a few levels lower than other classes would get it? They focus solely on melee (and archery) for their in combat usefulness that they should qualify for feat sooner.
Fighters should be allowed to add bravery to their will saves all the time, it would better show how they have conditioned their minds to the horrors of combat.
Pathfinder Unchained! has several answers for this as well. Keep in mind that with out spell expenditure, Magi and everyone else doing melee are in the same boat.Unless he has to move more than 5 feet to reach the target.You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)Keep in mind that that Magus is using a "max BAB" that's only 3/4 of the full martial, who coudl be getting even more attacks if he's a fully developed two weapon fighter. Not to mention having more attacks because of his higher BAB. A well trained high level fighter pretty much gets all the above as well. (who says Fighters can't be hasted?) A two weapon fighter who trains up the two weapon fighting tree can be getting a whole bushel of attacks, without expending a spell to do it.'Without spell expenditure.'
That's the mentality that GOT us this problem in the first place.
Not everyone sees the problem you do. For one thing, I've yet to see this so-called narrative power gap, especially in the 1-13th level range. Yes, wizards can cast teleport spells, but that's nothing more than a momentary gimmick, a general party aid which is the reason you tolerate their worthlessness in melee.
As for games above 13th level, you get into the realm of extreme table variance and campaign idiosyncracy that general observations lose even more value.
well as an example, i used fireball once to light a building on fire from a distance and at another point I think i had some animated bloody skeletons defend an area while we were elsewhere.
i'm just going to link to my other thread again.
But Feats that work off Bravery aren't exactly what I was referring to here, although very close.The Bravery feats are nice, but my fighter needs better saves, AND has to maintain his offensive ability. The ability to follow someone through a teleport is so situational as to be rarely viable, and having someone slip on a pool of blood is like Dirty Trick or Improved Trip, but not as versatile, and gets less effective against non-humanoids, etc.
I'm talking about things like:
Iron Will: +2 to Will saves. If you have Bravery, +1 additional for each point of Bravery. Add your current Expertise penalty and your Defensive Fighting/Total Defense AC bonus, as bonuses to your Will saves, if they do not already apply.
Lightning Reflexes: +2 To reflex saves.
If you have Armor Training: This bonus improves by +1 per Armor Training level. Add...
This... is excellent! A fighter's class feature is feats, so... feat unlocks. I like this idea quite a bit. Combine with scaling feats and this would be a nice boost. I'd probably restrict the feat unlocks to feats taken as fighter bonus feats, which would require adding the save boosters and some other feats to the available bonus feats, but that's not difficult.
I'd probably restrict the feat unlocks to feats taken as fighter bonus feats, which would require adding the save boosters and some other feats to the available bonus feats, but that's not difficult.
I would disagree with you here. Compare to other classes that get variously named talents at every level opposite a feat. They have the option of trading out feats for more talents, talents that are normally worth more than most feats (i.e. you can have a Barbarian with nothing but Power Attack and Extra Rage Power and it is good because Rage Powers are awesome). Why not let the Fighter have the same option? I'm assuming that only a set list of feats would have unlocks anyway due to it being impractical to have unlocks for all billion feats that exist, so it's not like he's going to end up with 20 super amped feats that synergize well anyway.
I'd probably restrict the feat unlocks to feats taken as fighter bonus feats, which would require adding the save boosters and some other feats to the available bonus feats, but that's not difficult.I would disagree with you here. Compare to other classes that get variously named talents at every level opposite a feat. They have the option of trading out feats for more talents, talents that are normally worth more than most feats (i.e. you can have a Barbarian with nothing but Power Attack and Extra Rage Power and it is good because Rage Powers are awesome). Why not let the Fighter have the same option? I'm assuming that only a set list of feats would have unlocks anyway due to it being impractical to have unlocks for all billion feats that exist, so it's not like he's going to end up with 20 super amped feats that synergize well anyway.
it's so bad that in my badass talent system one of the talents is to gain a rage power...
I'd probably restrict the feat unlocks to feats taken as fighter bonus feats, which would require adding the save boosters and some other feats to the available bonus feats, but that's not difficult.I would disagree with you here. Compare to other classes that get variously named talents at every level opposite a feat. They have the option of trading out feats for more talents, talents that are normally worth more than most feats (i.e. you can have a Barbarian with nothing but Power Attack and Extra Rage Power and it is good because Rage Powers are awesome). Why not let the Fighter have the same option? I'm assuming that only a set list of feats would have unlocks anyway due to it being impractical to have unlocks for all billion feats that exist, so it's not like he's going to end up with 20 super amped feats that synergize well anyway.
The problem you present is it's own solution: feat "Bonus Fighter Feat", allows taking a feat from the (adjusted) fighter list that is in all ways (such as unlocks) treated as a fighter bonus feat.
The addition of the feat unlocks would make feats a better power for the fighter much as rage powers are better than regular feats for a barbarian.
The problem you present is it's own solution: feat "Bonus Fighter Feat", allows taking a feat from the (adjusted) fighter list that is in all ways (such as unlocks) treated as a fighter bonus feat.The addition of the feat unlocks would make feats a better power for the fighter much as rage powers are better than regular feats for a barbarian.
So I'm taking the feat Extra Feat to get a different feat? I would object to that on the grounds that it would just confuse the uninitiated. A change in terminology for the Fighter bonus feats class feature would be required for clarity.
My issue with your previous statement was that I took it you meant the theoretical "Bonus Fighter Feat" shouldn't be a thing.
Amusing thought: What if fighters/barbarians/whatever could yell gibberish/warcry to try to mess up a spell with a verbal component being cast?
Amusing thought: What if fighters/barbarians/whatever could yell gibberish/warcry to try to mess up a spell with a verbal component being cast?
I always thought Guttural Response should have been a Rage Power. If the Fighter got nice things too at some point I could see it for him as well.
What if it was gated by uses per day? It's weird that this is an aversion for martials. Abilities must be at-will and thus balanced by being bad.
I'm fine with giving fighters resources like grit.
To be honest, I think it would be more fair it it was 1/encounter (or similar) so they can't just spam it to lock out a caster without losing any of their own actions, but that's not a Pathfinder paradigm.
i can see it now, the caster is trying to cast a spell with a man simply yelling constantly next to him. this is how you keep casters in prison.