My thoughts on Vigilante as a whole - Not Playtested


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


My take on the Vigilante Playtest

So it is important to note that I haven't playtested this. I only went though and looked at everything, thought about each ability for a little bit, then gave what opinions I have. A good chunk of this is fairly negative, and while I disagree with some of what you've chosen, I would actually like to see this come out as a good class. It has potential, but I feel like much of it is lacking. Perhaps I am looking at this from the wrong angle, and without playing I might be missing some interaction with combo pieces, but many of the options just aren't appealing. I hope that my opinions in this can help give some kind of decision, or alternate viewpoint, and that maybe the input will allow you to see something that you missed.

Hit Die: D8 is fine, nothing here is deserving of a d6, though i feel like Avengerss should have a d10.
Class Skills:

Spoiler:
This list seems fine, though I feel it could probably use acrobatics. I also feel as though they should get an additional Knowledge based on the Vigilante's Social identity. It's not very convincing if a noble doesn't have knowledge nobility, or a priest have knowledge religion.

Proficiencies:

Spoiler:
Sure, seems fine enough. Makes rogue proficiencies look silly, but alright.

Dual Identity:

Spoiler:
I actually kind of like this. Most of the time you'll have people just running around in Vigilante Mode all the time, never entering face mode. Occasionally someone might switch though. Knock down the change time to 1 minute, and it is still absolutely unusable in combat and still has a tricky time in social situations. Personally, I'd say knock it down to a full-round action and call it good, but part of me likes the idea of having to think ahead of time which persona you would need. Don't make this 5 minutes. 1 minute is bad enough to not use in combat, and also makes it something that is unusable to just attack someone, slip into a crowd, then switch personas.
Alternatively, do this - 5 minutes at level 1, 2 minutes at level 2, 1 minute at level 4, 1 full-round at level 8, 1 move action at level 10, 1 swift action at level 14. This makes it very hard to use at first level, but actually becomes theoretically usable at level 4. At level 6 you have what would normally be given at level 13, and makes it usable by giviing up an entire turn. At level 10, I can actually do something while dropping into vigilante mode. At level 14, why not?

Social Grace:

Spoiler:
I have no idea what to even really think of this. It makes the Vigilante hard to detect as the Vigilante in Face mode. The skill bonus thing seems tacked on as an afterthought, and personally I think I'd rather see a subset of Face mode abilities here, but that would probably make the class way too convuluted to use. Might I suggest using the Superficial Knowledge ability from Master Spy here instead of the +4? Or, alternatively, simply adding Superficial Knowledge as a part of Face Mode and keeping the +4 to chosen skills?

Renown:

Spoiler:
This is something that would really depend on an individual GM and could just end up being an ability that has no weight. I understand the purpose to it, but if you aren't sticking around an area for a decent amount of time, this is useless. Yet, despite that, I still actually like this. It has a nice feeling to it, it just seems like something that would get ignored, a lot.

Startling Appearance:

Spoiler:
You need to define what unaware of presence actually means. Due to the variability of the understanding of that phrase, this ability is either only potentially usable once per encounter, or possibly semi-exploitable if the Vigilante can move and full attack, or using ranged. If the vigilante cannot move and full attack, or using ranged, a -4 to an opponent's attack rolls still isn't terrible bad.

Loyal Aid:

Spoiler:
See Renown.

Many Guises:

Spoiler:
This is cool. I'm sad it takes 5 minutes to change modes now. I'd bump this down to the level 6 hole that was created I put in Dual Identity. You should also explain what happens if someone tries to scry or the like on his mundane appearances. Oh, and give the Superfical Knowledge ability from Master Spy to this as well.

Frightening Appearance:

Spoiler:
I feel as though this isn't quite 11th level worthy, though it's not a bad bonus on top of Startling Appearance. I feel like it is lacking something though.

Quick Change:

Spoiler:
Is this at 13th level just so PFS players don't have access to it? Personally I'd just apply the force when runing into familiar people check portion of this to what I'd do with the incrimented time reduction, adding 1 extra minute to the prep time to negate the check, or, once reaching the full round action portion, simply requiring it to take 1 minute.

Stunning Appearance:

Spoiler:
I think I'd drop this down to 15th level, and put in a new ability in this slot. I have no idea what though.

Everyman:

Spoiler:
Looking at this, I see what I would put into the 17th level slot from moving Stunning appearance down to 15th level. The question then becomes what goes into level 19? Oh, and drop the Bluff bonus, and instead give the Superfical Knowledge ability from Master Spy to this as well.

Vengeance Strike:

Spoiler:
Feels like a weird capstone. I really do not what to say about this. All I'm really getting is, "My ultimate ability allows me to stare at my enemies for 5 rounds so that I can get a +20 circumstance bonus to hit," True strike, "gain +15d6 precision damage," I guess I can't really complay about that, "or gain a +10 number to my d20 roll and make sure that I don't critically fail." This basically means that by spending 5 standard actions (Allowing you to move, or do anything you could do with a swift action and a ove action) and then basically either guarantee you hit (Unless you roll a nat 1), add 15-90 damage to your attack (Which is laughable by most creatures at this point), or give a 50% chance to crit (Which is better if you have a high crit range weapon and can actually manage to confirm.) This looks good, at first. The more I think about the more I realized I probably wouldn't use this ability. I'd even be likely to just go to level 19 in this class, and then dip a level into a PrC or another class.

Specializations
Avenger:

Spoiler:
I don't know why the flavor text of this makes me imagine two avenger's, one a devout worshipper of Sarenrae, the other a devout worshipper of Gorrum, charging out of the shadows, yelling like madmen. I like it.
Class Skill addition:
This seems appropriate to what I described above.
Base Ability:
I was under the impression that full BaB was tied to d10 Hit Dice, but either way, I still like this meshed into what I pictured above.
Talents:
Armor Silence: This is alright, I could see the Sarenite above using this.
Armor Skin: I don't actually like this all that much. I can see it's usefullness, but I feel like it'd be better to do something like "At 5th level..." to the above talent.
Close the Gap: Odd, but I still think that meshes with my above vision.
Combat Skill: I find it very hard to complain about bonus feats.
Enviornment Weapon: Why wouldn't I just use Combat Skill to gain Catch Off Guard?
Favored Maneuver: Why not just use Combat Skill for the Improved combat feat. After all this does not explicitly say that the Avenger need not need the pre-requisites for the Improved feat. Once again, please define aware of.
Fist of the Avenger:Ah, a bonus feat talent better than Combat skill. Does not fit my image, but I could see it matching others. Alternatively, why not give 1/2 monk unarmed progression or monk level-4 or something similar? Just if you do go that way, please make sure to explicitly state that it does not work with Monastic legacy, but put in some tid bit about it stacking with monk levels, just levels in Avenger do not count for Monastic Legacy.
Heavy Training: Applies to the Gorum guy.
Living Shield: I really like this. It's cool, it's somewhat usable, and it hits an opponent with another opponent's attack OR drops the grappled condition off of you and stops you from dealing with that.
Mad Rush: Pounce is useful, applies to both of my above images, and helps shore up the huge weakness with Startling Appearance. I'd like to see this at a lower level requirement, but I can actually understand this at 12th level. Pounce is powerful in the wrong hands.
Nothing Can Stop Me: I like the flavor of this. I have a funny image in my head of an evil baron sealed away in a fortress, thousands of traps lie in between our heroes (The two Avengers described in my above vision, they have now teamed up), and they decide to simply walk through the walls. Foolish Baron, your trapped hallways matter not for heroes such as we, and you shall NOT ESCAPE OUR VENGANCE. The actual mechanical benifits of this depend on how much damage one can do to each individula obstacle, and of course, the GM could always just say no. I do hate when those moments happen.
Shield of Fury: Yes. I am glad to see this, and I do not know why.
Signature Weapon: Creates an odd limbo where one is focused in a weapon, but not proficient in its use. Please give proficiency along with focus. Otherwise this is definitely good for my vision, and is better than just a single bonus feat.
Suckerpunch: Please just treat this as nonlethal sneak attack damage that scales as you have it written.
Unexpected Strike: I'm fine with this for the same reason I am fine with Shield of Fury. Feels a little weaker than Signature Weapon, but it is better to grab this than Quick Draw from a bonus feat.
Unkillable: Yep, sae feeling as Unexpected Strike.
Vital Punishment: So.... Yes.

Final thoguhts on Specialization:
I can't help but feel that this is the only specialization I actually like. I like some of the ideas of the others, but this is the only one that I see as truly viable, without just having a completely better option. Maybe that's because I like skills, and I like the idea of fighter. And this allows me to choose when to get combat feats, and when to get some type of actual class ability.

Stalker:

Spoiler:

The flavor text of this just tells me Shadow Dancer, or basic rogue.
Class Skill: About everything I could want from a rogue.
Base Ability: I'd say just change this to sneak attack and call it good. No need to complicate it further and weaken it into d4s.
Vigilaten Talents:
Another Day: Seems odd, some enemies will end up killing you after you use this anyway though.
Case the Joint[i]: I like this in combination with Social mode. I'd like to see an option to spend additional hours for additional rerolls. (Example - I roll a 40 on the Knowledge engineering check, giving me 2 rerolls, but I also spent an additional 2 hours, giving me a total of 4 rerolls.)
[i]Expose Weakness
: Does this require the objects used on hand, or is it assumed I have them? Do I need to declare how I am lowering it's DR (With non-efficient ways, Example - spraying cold iron on a werewolf) automatically not working?
Foe Collision: Put a 1/round limit on this and make the nonlethal damage into lethal (becoming the same type as the damage causing this) and I'll think about taking this. Until then, I would only think about taking this with a multiply nonlethal sneak attack build, but that doesn't work because it's not actually sneak attack.
Hide in Plain Sight: Subject to DM, but Hide in Plain Sight is usually a decent option.
Leave an Opening: I like the idea of being surrounded with this, your enemies thinking that you are their ally, whirlwind striking with hidden strike, and then getting a free attack on them as their turns come up.
Mighty Ambush: See Leave an Opening.
Mockingbird: I see the use for this. I could do a lot with this depending on the GM.
Perfect Fall: I only have one question for you: If two Stalkers jump off a cliff overlooking a city, side by side, can one of the pull out a plank and both use that as the surface?
Perfect Vulnerability: I don't know if I would take this. I feel like it would be safe to boost this up to a 1/round in place of one of your normal attacks, but maybe not.
Pull into the Shadows: I like this in conjunction with Mighty Ambush.
Rogue Talent: I understand.
Rooftop Infiltrator: I don't really know what to think of this. I see why it is an option, though I don't think I would ever actually take it.
Shadow's Sight: I'm cool with this, though I would add double low-light vision if they already have low-light vision.
Silent Dispatch: Personally I'd like to see this without the "first action in combat" line, and with something specifying that they still need cover or concealment added."
Sniper: This is something I'd like to see added to rogues if it hasn't already been.
Strike the Unseen: Necessary if fighting in shadows.
Surprise Strike: An odd ability, but synergizes well enough.
Throat Jab: Odd thought when used with ranged, but alright.
Twisting Fear: On it's own I am wondering what's going on. In combination with the base class abilities, I can sort of see the usefulness here.
Up Close and Personal: It's useful to have an extra way of applying sneak attack.

Final Thoughts on Specialization:
I like the idea of it, but I feel like it would be better if hidden strike were just sneak attack. There are some things I like out of this, but ultimately I think I'd be better off choosing Unchained Rogue.

Warlock

Spoiler:
Alright, this is looking like it might be a full-class Arcane Trickster, or maybe just some odd Magus doing.
Skills: Looks good, but why is Spellcraft linked to charisma in this?
Base abilities: Wizard list is good. I've liked the idea of Arcanist casting since I saw it. I don't particularly like having to take talents to increase casting power, but it does fit with most other classes. The first sentence in the last paragraph of Arcane Training I has a typo. It should read, "Like a sorcerer, a warlock vigilante can choose..." I like spellbooks.
Vigilante Talents
Arcane Training II: I don't like having to take a talent to increase casting power, but it does fit with several other classes.
Arcane Training III: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training IV: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training V: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training VI: See Arcane Training VI.
All of Arcane Training: Levels 4, 8, 10, 14, and 16 you effectively lose your talents. That's 5 talents given up for Magus/Bard casting with the wizard list. Right now I am not liking this and am seeing it as more of a tax than a feature.
Arcane Striker: I would rather play a magus than take this ability. 12th level is too high to add in flaming and it's equivalences. I could do this at 5th level as a Magus.
Bombs: I don't know why I didn't expect to see this. Seems alright as is, though if you take this at 2nd level, you won't be able to get a discovery until 6th level.
Bond of Blood: That seems evil. If nothing else it can help a Warlock be a front liner a little, though so far I'm noticing an issue with not being able to ignore arcane spell failure chance. Blood Armor is a spell that I don't really see as being all that good. As is, right now, I'd rather see Mage Armor in this spot.
Caster's Defense: What alignment must be chosen if the vigilante's alignment is true neutural?
Concealed Casting: I don't know what to say about this.
Educated Defense: This is a nice way to counterspell. Basically means that at 6th level your talent is likely taken up now.
Elemental Battle Armor: Necessary if you are going melee, though it doesn't really do that much damage. I'd end up stacking it with shock shield or the like.
Familiar: I don't know that I would ever be able to fit this in, except maybe at a high level.
Living Shadow: Where did this come from? I feel like this should be under Stalker due to its flavor text.
Mystic Bolt: So at level 4 I have to chose between a good ability, or 2nd level spells. I'll take the spells, and then at 6th level take this. Oh wait, that's taken up by a lot of other things. I'm noticing more and more Arcane training just severely limiting the options this class has.
Nonlethal Spellcasting: I don't know what to think of this. Nonlethal is usually a decent option, though I don't think I could fit it into any of the available talent slots.
Shadow Jump: See Living Shadow.
Signature Spell: Isn't this a trait?
Social Simulacrum: I like this more than I should. Too bad it isn't really available until level 12.
Tattoo Chamber: I see this being used to store wands and the like. It's weird, but I like it.

Example Warlock talent selections based on what I would want:
Level 2: Bond of Blood
Level 4: Arcane Training II (Magus also get spell recall here, Warlock gets nothing else)
Level 6: Educated Defense
Level 8: Arcane Training III (1 level behind Magus, Magus also gets Improved spell combat here, but that's more of an improvement)
Level 10: Arcane Training IV (Back on track with Magus, Magus's fighter training is alright, but its not worth complaining about)
Level 12: Mystic Bolt
Level 14: Arcane Training V (1 level behind Magus, Greater spell combat is pretty good, but I just get access to the same level of spells, while magus last left learned how to use heavy armor, and this level Greater spell combat)
Level 16: Arcane Training VI (Back on track with Magus, Magus gets a bonus feat this level)
Level 18: Tattoo Chamber
Level 20: Social Simularcrum (I really feel like the options here have basically run out)

Fnal Thoughts on Specialization
I can't help but feel that this is really weak due to having Arcane Training like that. With the above example magus just flat out smashes this. Perhaps I should've compared it more with bard, but I feel that, with it's current set up, it competes more with Magus, but should basically lose every time. I also feel like Warlock needs Bard's armor proficiency.

Zealot

Spoiler:
This gives me a funny idea of a worshipper of Urgathoa (Zealot U) and a worshipper of Pharasma (Zealot P). Both are vigilantes. Both are Zealots. Both are in the same city. Zealot U's face is a priest of pharasma. He has no real powers, but his vigilante mode takes him as a worshipper of Urgathoa. Gaining powers and spreading the good word of his pallid princess. Zealot U's vigilante is a divine caster within an underground church devoted to their patron.
Zealot P's face mode is very similar to Zealot U's. The twist is that her face is a woshipper of Urgathoa. In fact she is in the same church as Zealot U, but a lower member. In vigilante mode, she strikes down undead and returns all of those lost, to the Lady of the Graves.
These two have a lot of interaction with each other, and both never suspect the other of being the vigilante they truly are.
Class Skills: Seems alright.
Base Abilities: Oh boy, Divine training I. I see I'll be spending a lot of my talents to get better at divine casting. Why does this draw from the Inquisitor list? I like that list for Inquisitors, though I feel as though it would be better if this pulled from the Cleric list. This ability has contradictory wording, specifically, "He can cast any spell he knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time..." and, "Unlike the number of spells he can cast per day, the number of spells a zealot vigilante can prepare each day isn’t affected by his Charisma score."
Vigilante Talents
Channel Energy: It's better than no channel energy option I guess
Discern Lies: Now I feel as though I almost have to compare this to inquisitor, and that just is not fair to this class.
Divine Bastion: This helps bring the Zealot's CMD up a little. It can even boost it a little over what it should be. I don't think this would actually help at higher levels, but I could see it useful as a party buff.
Divine Training II: I feel the exat same way about this as I do Arcane Training II.
Divine Training III-VI: See Divine Training II.
Domain: Continues making this look like a weak Inquisitor option.
Empoer Symbol: This has its use, in specific campaigns or for specific characters.
Life Bond: Seems like a good enough ability, though I'd prefer to see it go through damage reduction of yourself, or the target ally, whichever is better.
Penance Gaze: Uhh....?
Revivifying Touch: Bringing allies back is always good. It also happens to be at a level where taking it doesn't interfere with our casting power.
Stalwart: Conflicts with Revivfying touch, otherwise I do like Evasion for Fort and Will.
Stern Gaze: More Inquisitor?
Track: More Inquisitor?

Final Opinions on this Specialization: this just seems like a sub-par inquisitor. I see some interesting abilities in here, but I feel like most character concepts would just be better off as an archetyped Inquisitor. You've given this specialization several inquisitor abilities, the inquisitor spell list, and because of that, I think it'll just get compared to the inquisitor a lot more than you will want it to. Even the ideas I got from the flavor text could be done as Infiltrator Insquistors, and probably be better off that way if they just focused on disguise.

Vigilante Feats Sidebar:
Are they really that powerful? Yes, some of them are, but many feel like something I might expect to see on a rogue talent list.
These Vigilante Talents are not that much more powerful than a feat: I'm sure a lot of these are debatable

Spoiler:

Avenger
Armor Silence - I can definitely understand an argument saying this is too powerful for a feat, it feels on the fence to me though
Armor Skin - same as above
Close the Gap - This feels like it could've been a feat anyway, though more of an end of chain feat
Combat Skill
Environment Weapon - this is actually weaker than Catch Off Guard
Favored Maneuver - This is only slightly stronger than its corresponding feat
Heavy Training
Nothing Can Stop Me
Suckerpunch
Unexpected Strike - Only gets slightly better at 8th level
Unkillable - Only gets a bit better at 12th level
Vital Punishment - Only situationally better than Vital strike
Stalker
Another Day - It isn't actually all that strong
Case the Joint
Expose Weakness - This depends on how you clarify how this works.
Hide in Plain Sight - I can nab a rogue version of it as a talent
Mighty Ambush - Similar Slayer talent
Rogue Talent - Wait, so can I take Extra Rogue Talent if I'm a Stalker?
Silent Dispatch
Suprise Strike - Feels like a rogue talent anyway
Up Close and Personal
Warlock
Arcane Training II-VI - I already have a level requirement on them, I'd rather be able to get actual abilities via talents and spend feats to nab these
Concealed Casting - This feels like it should be a feat anyway
Educated Defense - Extra arcanist exploit
Elemental Battle Armor
Familiar - Arcanist's have a familiar exploit right?
Nonlethal Spellcasting
Signature Spell
Social Simulacrum
Zealot
Discern Lies
Divine Bastion
Divine Training II-VI - See Arcane Training
Empower Symbol - I'd actually like to see this as a feat. Maybe with the 10th level version being a seperate feat requiring the first, though a lot of people don't like feat chains like that.
Life Bond
Penance Gaze - I am having a really hard time developing an opinion on this ability for some reason
Stern Gaze
Track

Final thoughts: I like the idea of this class, perhaps I'm missing something, but I feel like it could be executed better. I've given input in areas where I feel like it could use improvement, though I don't always know a better way to do something. If the class were released as-is, I think I'd end up using Avenger. If I were to go Stalker I'd go rogue or slayer. If I were to go warlock, I'd go with magus. I wouldn't go Zealot as is, it only feels like a weak inquisitor.

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