I agree, and I know that, and the cleric agrees and likes the idea of it. And the magus and the soon-to-be fighter should know that too, but may have forgotten it. I've also attempted to convince them to pick up a wand of CLW, but they haven't wanted to blow the money on it yet, or possibly at all, as most or all thought it'd be pointless with a cleric, and I didn't want to press the issue more than I already did. Even tried to goad them into buying it by specifically pointing out to them one that was for sale.
Heck, at the very beginning I even offered to just hand them a GMPC Life oracle for a heal/removal bot with spontaneous casting.
Whelp, I think he's decided on going the evangelist direction now. Probably picking up combat reflexes as well as putting his fourth level increase to Dex.
Any suggestions for later feats for him?
And thanks for the help thus far, I'm trying to help the dude get to a point where he can just enjoy the cleric. And maybe try to get the rest of the table see clerics as more than a bandaid along the way.
Well, ask him, "Why do you want to play a cleric?" cause it kinda seems like he doesn't really WANT to play a cleric but just happens to be one, cause he doesn't seem to want to do most of what a cleric does.
And I quote, "I mean, he's kind of right. It was just the first thing that came to mind when they said they needed a healer."
Chess Pwn wrote:
But to answer his question
The ability to cast in heavier armor (via divine casting), being a 9th level caster, divine favor, still having channel energy, a domain (this opens up to having a full power druid pet, swift action enlarge persons, or mass heroism as a swift), and no skill points.
He said those were good points.
I'm currently talking to him about retraining and he's liking the idea more now.
Well, this all seemed like the direction he may have wanted to go, but he isn't interested in it. His reaction was basically "then why wouldn't I play a bard?"
If nothing else I've taken another look at evangelist.
heroism domain on the evangelist archetype makes for a very strong turn 1 later on, swift mass heroism, move start bardic performance, standard any spell. Also really helps you become a beatstick cause you're buffed up too.
But this is getting into combat cleric.
Sheylyn is rather important to the cleric. Definitely a good combo though. I'd totally use it.
Bladed Brush would be a nice feat for him to get since he likes to use a glaive. Sure the weapon Finesse part is useless. But the ability of:
Quote:
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Not nessicery but is a cool flavorful feat for Shelyn worshipers.
Definitely see the usefulness of being able to lose the reach property, they've actually been fighting in pretty cramped places. Funnily enough I forgot he was using a reach weapon and 5 footed an archer into his threatened area. Not sure how he'd feel about the feat, but I'll show it to him.
Louise Bishop wrote:
I would recommend showing him the Evangelist Archetype and possibly letting him switch. Also consider letting him use the spells Shelyn lets clerics prepare...namely Good Hope (one of the best buffs in the game)
Letting him change to evangelist he can easily handle party buffing and his 16 STR will be more than enough to accomplish reach tatics. At 4 he could bump Dex to 14 and grab Combat reflexes at 5. He really doesn't need power attack if he does not want it. Since his standard will be spent buffing or doing something more meaningful than attacking. (The rest can manage typically) Getting in 1-2 AoO is always nice addition.
I forgot about that archetype, as it's certainly not for every cleric. Although it may be just the kind of thing he's looking for. He's actually concerned about not being able to hit with Power Attack as is. He's had a lot of problems juggling it on 3/4 progression classes.
Well, there's offensive cleric spells, spiritual weapon and searing light.
There's offensive control spells, blindness/deafness, hold person, command.
Caster cleric's I'm unfamiliar with as well since I find them boring.
Yeah, me too, plus their personal buffs are rather good, but oriented for battle priest of some sort.
Chess Pwn wrote:
The clerics buffs are strong and short, while arcane are long lasting and has haste, so it's easy to see why you'd think the cleric's buffing isn't as good as arcane. A strong choice is to worship a good that grants good hope as a 3rd or 4th level spell, it's a strong buff that stacks well with haste formation.
Didn't know about good hope, I'll definitely have to show him the variant spellcasting section. It's a shame the revelry subdomain (grants good hope) is tied to two empyreal lords I've never heard of. Though that's really only in respect to that spell and the swapped in power extending the spell for free.
Chess Pwn wrote:
If not planing on a battle cleric I'd swap Str for DEX if possible, and not go for guided hand. It's not worth buffing an option that you're not actually going to use.
The only reason I suggested it to him was because he has no current direction, it gave him a goal to work towards and at least could make him feel like he can hit something with his stick if he wanted to just do something.
First off - I don't think any of you come here, but if anyone at my table does see this post, don't read it, it contains semi-spoilers (mostly just things you'll fight). Yes, I'm Monty.
A player at my table has asked me for some help with choosing a direction for his cleric. I'm at a bit of a loss at this point in helping him as, while I can throw battle cleric at him all day, he doesn't seem interested in the type of cleric I am familiar with. I'm not really trying to force him into a role, he just falls outside of my specializations, and I'm trying to help him make him feel like his character is at least useful.
Party/Campaign information
Spoiler:
Party Composition:
Cleric of Sheylyn - Wields a Glaive, but doesn't know what he wants to do
Kensai Magus - Dex based melee - should be mildly optimized
Zen Archer Unchained Monk - Yes, I'm aware
Samurai - GMPC that is currently their level, I included him so that he could just soak up damage in the beginning in case of crits or improper encounter design on my end, will be leaving the party soon and they already think he's weighing them down in combat a bit
Arcane Trickster? - I'm not entirely certain if he'll be playing this, but this player hasn't joined yet. Might actually just be a wizard functioning as one. Might decide to do something else
Fighter? - Another player that hasn't joined yet, not certain when he'll be joining as he's having some personal problems. A frontline Dwarf. Presumably using a hammer. I'd like to convince him to do a class other than fighter, but that's difficult. Maybe someone could suggest something for this as well, possibly one of the AWT options from the Weapon Master's book. has optimization issues and once had a fighter that gained power attack at level 11 as he was attempting to do a dual-wield sword/pistol fighter that... didn't pan out well.
Right now the party is currently 3rd level. They've been dealing with mostly goblins, have fought a couple demons, gone through a cemetery/mausoleum filled with undead, and will (around 6th level) probably be fighting an aboleth.
I've been using the demons as fights at the end of goblin encampments (assuming they go the direction I think they will), and they shouldn't be appearing much after the aboleth fight, though they may return around 12-14th level depending on their decisions.
Undead will not be very common for them to run into, though I may end up throwing them in as minions when it makes sense. They'll also be common in the 8th or 9th-12th level, with the occasional, boss.
Oh, and one of the players really wants to fight a dragon at some point, and he seems to want a big one.
From 6th level to 9th level they'll likely be fighting people, magical beasts, and animals. Have a non-combat encounter with a vampire planned, but I expect about a 75% chance it'll go to combat.
At some point (currently unplanned) fey.
It's also possible that around levels 8-12 (it depends when they go for it), they may end up in charge of a now 80 year abandoned Dwarven fortress and fight a lot of Drow.
I realize this doesn't seem to have too much of a theme, but for an incredibly long period, there were a lot of city based human encounters within a low magic setting inside my gaming group. I'm attempting to break that rut with something of a more fantastical sort. Heck, there's an extra-dimensional magic mart with a portal (free-standing door in the center of a plaze, run by a gnome and staffed by brownies) inside most major cities. That would've been unheard of before. Oh yeah, there's a literal magic-mart so uh... they should be able to buy basically any item.
Cleric's current statblock:
Spoiler:
Aasimar Cleric 3
NG Medium outsider (Native)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +13
DEFENSE AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +4 armor, +1 natural armor)
HP 22
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +7
Resistacid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 glaive +7 (1d10+5/x3)
Domain: Luck, Good
STATISTICS Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 16
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 16
Feats Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Glaive)
Skills Appraise +7, Diplomacy +11, Linguistics +6, Perception +13, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +5
Languages Common, Celestial, Infernal, Elven, Dwarven
SQ Daylight 1/day, Channel Energy 2d6
Spells written down:
0th- Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Stabilize
1st- Shield of faith, divine favor, CLW, Endure elements, air bubble, abundant ammo, murderous command, sun metal, magic weapon, true strike, protection from evil, ant haul, bless, bane, doom
2nd- Align Weapon, Resist energy, Shatter, CMW, Silence
Gear:
Only now do I realize that all he has written down is the +1 glaive, 2 pieces of jewelry that was picked up along the way, and a masterwork backpack. I know he at least has an amulet of natural armor +1 as well
What he's not interested in:
Spoiler:
He does not particularly seem interested in summoning (too much bookkeeping), battle cleric (though he's currently working on getting guided hand - at my sort of suggestion as he'll be probably focusing a lot more on wisdom than keeping his str up and that will help him hit better at least), and seems to find most cleric party buffs underwhelming when compared to an arcane caster.
What he seems more interested in:
Spoiler:
He does seem to want to focus on casting and a specific school of magic, though I'm not familiar enough with this side of cleric to give him a range of options. Usually when he's a caster he goes more for blasty things, and likely would've played oracle, but he had just finished playing one and didn't want to play oracle back to back.
I'm definitely willing to let him retrain, all paizo books are cool, 3rd party is something I'm relatively strict on, though I'm willing to let a few things slide depending on how I feel about it (case-by-case basis). Same with 3.5 (though this is likely to be denied).
In case you're wondering, stats were rolled. He might have the worst stat-block at the table.
Oh, and I'm running Ultimate Equipment pre-errata (amongst other things). Also I end up ignoring some FAQs. I think that's basically all that should matter.
Let me know if there are any questions I can answer. I appreciate the help.
Calistria's Chastity (This has the benefit of the PCs being able to say they fought for Calistria's Chastity, and managed to keep it safe and secure)
Bob's Tavern (with an extra sign barely clinging to the bottom of that one with shoddy nail-work) and "Plezurabull Woman." Quite possibly "The battle of the plezura-bulls." Bonus points if you can get people to mispronounce it.
Portable bridge.... if you have the spare room and money.
I know how ridiculous that sounds, but so long as you have one person that can jump/climb/swim/fly over a gap up to 30ft, everyone can make it without further expindeture of resources, or extra risk.
Alternatively a tea set, folding chairs, a folding table, and a pavilion tent for luxury.
Don't forget enough food that you can eat before it goes bad.
If there are a specific and relatively small number of spells that are causing problems: contingency + Spell Immunity may be of assistance, while still allowing spells beyond their first choices usable.
Oh, and make sure she has enough minions to delay your heroes from just rushing straight up to her. Some of them could even be lower leveled casters to provide additional affects to the field. Maybe some of them have been instructed to summon a few creatures once the battle starts.
Perhaps you could have the fight take place in an area similar to the Mana Wastes in Golarion.
Giving her an item that can turn magic on/off as an immediate action is just begging to have the PCs steal it off of her before she's even dead.
According to this the shield has a CL of 5.
According to this animate dead creates up to 2x CL or 4x CL with desecrate.
So I could see the argument for: 1/day for 5 minutes you get a 10 HD zombie, which is approximately CR4. That doesn't seem too awful of an effect though it does make the shield seem pretty cheap.
The RAW reading though is that you get a creature named "Human Zombie" per James Risner's post.
I'd try to convince everyone to take the array and create identical brothers or sisters.
As in 4 identical siblings, a set of quadruplets.
Physical ability scores must be the same for everyone, everyone goes human, takes the +2 to their casting stat (along with the 14), and then does what they wish for the other two mental stats.
Str 8
Dex 15
Con 12
This leaves the 13 and 10 available for whichever mental stats they want.
Party of a magus, an inquisitor, a bard, and a warpriest.
The inquistor and bard focus on ranged combat, the magus and warpriest go for dervish dance melee.
I'm not advocating for the complete remove of multiple attacks, but diminishing iterative attacks have always been one of my least liked features of the d20 system, going all the way back to the release of 3E in 2000.
I propose using Starfinder as a chance to remove them from the system, instead making multiple attacks where they all operate at your full attack bonus, but there are less of them overall, which also thusly makes them more valuable. Lets say high BAB classes eventually get a total of 3 attacks, with additional ones coming in around levels 7 and 15, and medium BAB get 2, the 2nd of which they get around level 11. Low BAB classes only ever get the 1 attack. Also, TWF only ever gives 1 additional attack.
This seems like it would be a cleaner system, and makes it where each extra attack is a huge boon and truly matters.
This kind of reminds me of StarWars Saga Edition. However, in that, everyone only gets one attack. You can take two feats (Double Attack and Triple Attack) to get an extra attack, granted at a -5 to all attacks for Double and -10 for Triple.
You can mitigate those negatives, but to fully get rid of the penalties you have to spend 9 levels in a prestige class that you could use to get more interesting abilities.
Also, Two Weapon Fighting grants one attack with your off hand at a -10, which becomes a -5 with the first feat, -2 with the second, and no penalty with the last.
Saga Edition does have a lot of problems though...
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
It still uses one of your spell slots per day, unless I'm missing something out of the fervor ability.
I'll start with this: cleric domains. The concept confuses the ever loving snot out of me. Does anyone have a concise way to explain how domains affect a cleric? Sometimes it's extra spells, sometimes extra powers. You can take these spells, you can't take these others. Is there an overarching framework or is it just each domain has its own quirks?
Deadmanwalking beat me to this and his answer is most likely better than what I would have given.
Sarcastic responses to Lamontius.
Spoiler:
Lamontius wrote:
please explain the caster/martial disparity
Casters are it. Martials are in despair. I honestly have no idea where the I went and where the y came from, perhaps the same source is responsible.
Lamontius wrote:
can someone elaborate on when a paladin should fall
When the player of the paladin does something that makes the entire table want to hit him over the head with the CRB.
Lamontius wrote:
how do I do grappling
You wrestle with your GM until he says you CAN roll a CMB to pin the flying dragon.
Lamontius wrote:
why does the rogue even exist
Ever heard of trap feats? Here's a whole class.
Lamontius wrote:
how do armor spikes work
They don't on their own. You need a hand to use them. Yes, even on your chest. Yes, I'm aware how that sounds.
Lamontius wrote:
is charm person an evil act
Yes, but only because it's one of those things where if you have to ask...
Lamontius wrote:
why are most CN characters complete dumpsters
What's the statblock of a dumpster? I don't think I've ever seen one in game.
Lamontius wrote:
explain sacred geometry interactions plz
Uh... Math. And charts. And lots of people hitting you in the face for taking an hour per turn. Oddly enough this can cause brain damage, which means next time you'll be slower.
Lamontius wrote:
should I rollplay or roleplay
Only one or the other. These two cannot be mixed whatsoever. If a heathen ever tries to tell you they can, call him a slur of insults using both instances.
Lamontius wrote:
how much can I optimize before I am considered a cheesing powergamer
The general rule of thumb is: Can you explain to me why you took this feat/spell/class ability/etc with at least a 2 page (size 8 font, no double spacing, and don't you dare fudge the margins) story? No? Is it a feat that is actually good? Yes? Then you're a filthy power gamer.
While you can't really make an intimidate check at the same time as casting something, depending upon what response you're going for, you might be able to intimidate them through other means than simply an intimidate skill check. For example, if a shaky guy pulls out a gun and points it at you, he may only be 5'1", have a nerd strap on his glasses, and speak with a small, lispy voice, but with the gun there people might be more willing to comply with what he asks. This is completely DM fiat, and could easily backfire.
I have used spells as intimidation factors before, though. One, it helped that I actually had intimidate. Two, I wasn't actually making intimidate checks on the same round.
The first example that comes to my mind is the time I had a guy tied up in a tent. Uh... I won't go into everything that happened, but I never ended up torturing him; just kind of threatened to hit him with an inflict serious. He promised to talk when I stuck it in his face (and rolled pretty well on the check), then actually started talking when I discharged it into myself. The other example that comes to mind is a time I sent a graverobber to the earth plane (I swear it was an accident, magic crits with crit cards can be brutal). GM didn't even call for an intimidate check, the rest of his group just did as I said.
So, basically, pick touch spells where you can utilize the spell as a weapon while holding the charge (and maybe pick up a small bonus on the check depending on GM), OR just use intimidate after you cast the spell.
So I don't have anything overly useful to say, but the whole "you bumped into him" argument has only made me imagine a magus getting annoyed at an invisible opponent, casting shocking grasp, then moving into the opponent's square, finding out its illegal, being forced back, and discharging his shocking grasp as he touched him. Granted, that's not really the way that works, but I could see the argument of "I bumped into him, so I touched him right?"
There are two ways that I can see this interaction being read.
Ignoring any other ways to get these to work together
1. Ascetic style treats the weapon as an unarmed strike. Pummeling style checks, sees it as an unarmed strike. Done.
2. Ascetic style treats the weapon as an unarmed strike. Pummeling style checks, sees an unarmed strike, checks to see what is modifying it, turns off ability turning it into an unarmed strike. One works, the other doesn't.
Personally I would likely go with #1 at home and if it caused problems would fix it later after talking with the player (I'm relatively lenient unless a lot of problems crop up or someone is just doing something ridiculous). However, from a RAW and even RAI standpoint I see #2 being the correct answer.
SPECTRAL HAND
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one spectral hand
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.
The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.
Quick answer: the wizard can apply his sneak attack damage to spells cast through the spectral hand so long as he, the wizard, makes successful stealth checks.
Rather than seeing it as a separate individual, see it more as an arrow being loosed from a bow.
Mortigneous, I think the druid would be significantly better off wild shaping into a dire tiger than fighting with manufactured weapons.
That actually may very well be true. I'm less familiar with Druids, especially wild shape. I just assumed archery would be better as there are already 3 front line animal companions (let's be honest, that paladin won't actually be mounting his mount)
My thoughts on this go into the range of:
Archery Bard
Spoiler:
Attributes: STR 14 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 16
Race: Human (for extra feat) or halfling (for extra dex/cha)
Archery or two handed Druid with animal companion
Spoiler:
Attributes: Assume archery STR 14 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 12
Race: Human, Dwarf, or Half elf/orc
Wizard with improved familiar
Spoiler:
Attributes: STR 12 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 14 CHA 10
Race: Elf, or really anything that doesn't hurt dex/int really.
Reach or archery Cleric with animal companion
Spoiler:
Attributes: Assume archery STR 12 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 14
Race: Anything that will bump WIS will work fine
Two-handed or archery Paladin with mount
Spoiler:
Attributes: Assume archery STR 14 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 16
Race: Halfling would do well
Gear for these should probably go to a +1 weapon, and some mundane gear. With the exception of the wizard who should likely stock up on scrolls, any material components s/he requires, and possibly a specific magic item that's relatively cheap.
That's mostly so that there is some amount of variety though.
I'm sure a party of nothing but wizards would do fine, and would likely be the best option assuming 1 fight/day.
This actually reminds me of noble from Star Wars: Saga Edition. Money was a bit different, but with one talent in that class you could afford a decent ship at level 5 easily. You could afford a poor ship at level 3. That talent gave you 5,000*noble level in credits every level, but credits have a different value than gold.
I would suggest on deciding on what you want them to be able to buy, and when. That may help you decide how much extra to give them.
One problem with this type of class ability though, is that a lot of GMs will try to mitigate it by giving out less wealth than they would, or by jacking up the prices of everything.
Pages of spell knowledge might be a good place to start. I'd imagine it's more money than you were thinking though. If you feel that's not enough you could also throw in the price for Pearls of Power. Those are the closest items to spell casting that I can think of.
The pages represent the spells known table and pearls of power represent spells per day. I suppose it's also important to note that it doesn't really cover the versatility of prepared casters, but I'd imagine there's no absolutely perfect way to price out something like this.
You cause your own skin to peel off your body and animate as a magical creature you control. You may project your consciousness to your animated skin or return it to your actual body as a standard action. When your consciousness is in your body, you are helpless (except for transferring your will to your skin, or dismissing the spell).
The above section seems to imply that you can either transfer your conciousnesss between your body and skin as a standard action, or, with a different reading, projecting your conciousnesss to your body, or returning your skin to your body as a standard action.
skinsend wrote:
When your skin returns to your body, you regain hit points equal to your skin’s remaining hit points. If the spell ends before you reunite with your skin or if your skin is killed while you are in your body, you remain helpless and at 0 hit points until your full body is restored to you (requiring powerful magic, as described above).
As there are no other possible references to returning one's skin to one's body, this either means that if one does not have their skin regenerated before the spell ends (even upon dismissal), they are thrown into the helpless position until their skin is regenerated, or more likely the above standard action its refers to the user's skin, and not the user's conciousnesss.
Response to Chocobot about gaseous form stuff:
Spoiler:
Vampire Defenses wrote:
If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape.
Yes that seems to force them to do it.
Gaseous Form wrote:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability
The actual ability however seems to allow them some control over the ability. While I would have unintelligent (animals and the like) vampires attempt to automatically go gaseous, any intelligent one should merely treat the line in Vampire Defenses as a potential strategy note.
Yes. Normal undead are destroyed at 0. Vampires go into gaseous form and retreat to coffin within two hours. they then begin to fast heal. The spell disables your body from healing except through regeneration. So a vampire would not be able to heal and would then die.
Wouldn't the smart vampire simply use its standard action to return the skin to its body, rather than go into its gaseous form? After all they aren't forced to enter their gaseous form.
Then how would a vampire ever be able to activate its gaseous form ability?
Edit: I do feel a bit idiotic for having missed the undead being destroyed at 0, however vampires specifically have wording that incapacitates them on 0 hp.
Edit #2: Now I'm simply wondering if that is supposed to be disabled instead of incapacitated, as I can't find a condition named incapacitated.
Oh, I apologize. It was described to me as getting much higher. Admittedly my group did not make it past the first floor. We barely managed to survive between all the bumbling of one player (triggering every encounter on one half of the floor at once), and my characters awfulness of being an oracle that punched things.
They disagree on some points, and I believe I agree more with the first, but the second brings up valid points. And it's important to note that it may not be for you, it's just what I would play in that circumstance.
Edit: Sorry, those are guides, not builds.
I don't have any builds on hand that I could suggest, though you may be able to find some somewhere.
Then I would personally go with rogue/wizard arcane trickster.
Good skills, good spells, can disable magical traps, and is decent at ranged. Oh, and if you're allowed to go unchained rogue, even better.
Or if you're looking for more mundane, then ranger, fighter, or gunslinger.
Alternatively Arcane archer, but I'm not quite as familiar with that as trickster.
Assuming that the witch is focusing on enchantment and possibly buff/debuff, and the bloodrager on melee dpr/possibly tanking. It partially depends on what the cleric is doing. For the sake of argument I'll just assume healbot.
With that I notice a lack of a ranged focused character. I'd suggest a number of things. (In no particular order)
Ranger
Fighter
Alchemist
Gunslinger
Wizard
Arcane trickster (either ninja/sorc or rogue/wizard)
Paladin
Slayer (specifically Stygian slayer)
Hunter
Druid
Etc...
Really anything that can focus decently on ranged attacks
So it is important to note that I haven't playtested this. I only went though and looked at everything, thought about each ability for a little bit, then gave what opinions I have. A good chunk of this is fairly negative, and while I disagree with some of what you've chosen, I would actually like to see this come out as a good class. It has potential, but I feel like much of it is lacking. Perhaps I am looking at this from the wrong angle, and without playing I might be missing some interaction with combo pieces, but many of the options just aren't appealing. I hope that my opinions in this can help give some kind of decision, or alternate viewpoint, and that maybe the input will allow you to see something that you missed.
Hit Die: D8 is fine, nothing here is deserving of a d6, though i feel like Avengerss should have a d10.
Class Skills:
Spoiler:
This list seems fine, though I feel it could probably use acrobatics. I also feel as though they should get an additional Knowledge based on the Vigilante's Social identity. It's not very convincing if a noble doesn't have knowledge nobility, or a priest have knowledge religion.
Proficiencies:
Spoiler:
Sure, seems fine enough. Makes rogue proficiencies look silly, but alright.
Dual Identity:
Spoiler:
I actually kind of like this. Most of the time you'll have people just running around in Vigilante Mode all the time, never entering face mode. Occasionally someone might switch though. Knock down the change time to 1 minute, and it is still absolutely unusable in combat and still has a tricky time in social situations. Personally, I'd say knock it down to a full-round action and call it good, but part of me likes the idea of having to think ahead of time which persona you would need. Don't make this 5 minutes. 1 minute is bad enough to not use in combat, and also makes it something that is unusable to just attack someone, slip into a crowd, then switch personas.
Alternatively, do this - 5 minutes at level 1, 2 minutes at level 2, 1 minute at level 4, 1 full-round at level 8, 1 move action at level 10, 1 swift action at level 14. This makes it very hard to use at first level, but actually becomes theoretically usable at level 4. At level 6 you have what would normally be given at level 13, and makes it usable by giviing up an entire turn. At level 10, I can actually do something while dropping into vigilante mode. At level 14, why not?
Social Grace:
Spoiler:
I have no idea what to even really think of this. It makes the Vigilante hard to detect as the Vigilante in Face mode. The skill bonus thing seems tacked on as an afterthought, and personally I think I'd rather see a subset of Face mode abilities here, but that would probably make the class way too convuluted to use. Might I suggest using the Superficial Knowledge ability from Master Spy here instead of the +4? Or, alternatively, simply adding Superficial Knowledge as a part of Face Mode and keeping the +4 to chosen skills?
Renown:
Spoiler:
This is something that would really depend on an individual GM and could just end up being an ability that has no weight. I understand the purpose to it, but if you aren't sticking around an area for a decent amount of time, this is useless. Yet, despite that, I still actually like this. It has a nice feeling to it, it just seems like something that would get ignored, a lot.
Startling Appearance:
Spoiler:
You need to define what unaware of presence actually means. Due to the variability of the understanding of that phrase, this ability is either only potentially usable once per encounter, or possibly semi-exploitable if the Vigilante can move and full attack, or using ranged. If the vigilante cannot move and full attack, or using ranged, a -4 to an opponent's attack rolls still isn't terrible bad.
Loyal Aid:
Spoiler:
See Renown.
Many Guises:
Spoiler:
This is cool. I'm sad it takes 5 minutes to change modes now. I'd bump this down to the level 6 hole that was created I put in Dual Identity. You should also explain what happens if someone tries to scry or the like on his mundane appearances. Oh, and give the Superfical Knowledge ability from Master Spy to this as well.
Frightening Appearance:
Spoiler:
I feel as though this isn't quite 11th level worthy, though it's not a bad bonus on top of Startling Appearance. I feel like it is lacking something though.
Quick Change:
Spoiler:
Is this at 13th level just so PFS players don't have access to it? Personally I'd just apply the force when runing into familiar people check portion of this to what I'd do with the incrimented time reduction, adding 1 extra minute to the prep time to negate the check, or, once reaching the full round action portion, simply requiring it to take 1 minute.
Stunning Appearance:
Spoiler:
I think I'd drop this down to 15th level, and put in a new ability in this slot. I have no idea what though.
Everyman:
Spoiler:
Looking at this, I see what I would put into the 17th level slot from moving Stunning appearance down to 15th level. The question then becomes what goes into level 19? Oh, and drop the Bluff bonus, and instead give the Superfical Knowledge ability from Master Spy to this as well.
Vengeance Strike:
Spoiler:
Feels like a weird capstone. I really do not what to say about this. All I'm really getting is, "My ultimate ability allows me to stare at my enemies for 5 rounds so that I can get a +20 circumstance bonus to hit," True strike, "gain +15d6 precision damage," I guess I can't really complay about that, "or gain a +10 number to my d20 roll and make sure that I don't critically fail." This basically means that by spending 5 standard actions (Allowing you to move, or do anything you could do with a swift action and a ove action) and then basically either guarantee you hit (Unless you roll a nat 1), add 15-90 damage to your attack (Which is laughable by most creatures at this point), or give a 50% chance to crit (Which is better if you have a high crit range weapon and can actually manage to confirm.) This looks good, at first. The more I think about the more I realized I probably wouldn't use this ability. I'd even be likely to just go to level 19 in this class, and then dip a level into a PrC or another class.
Specializations
Avenger:
Spoiler:
I don't know why the flavor text of this makes me imagine two avenger's, one a devout worshipper of Sarenrae, the other a devout worshipper of Gorrum, charging out of the shadows, yelling like madmen. I like it.
Class Skill addition:
This seems appropriate to what I described above.
Base Ability:
I was under the impression that full BaB was tied to d10 Hit Dice, but either way, I still like this meshed into what I pictured above.
Talents: Armor Silence: This is alright, I could see the Sarenite above using this.
Armor Skin: I don't actually like this all that much. I can see it's usefullness, but I feel like it'd be better to do something like "At 5th level..." to the above talent.
Close the Gap: Odd, but I still think that meshes with my above vision.
Combat Skill: I find it very hard to complain about bonus feats.
Enviornment Weapon: Why wouldn't I just use Combat Skill to gain Catch Off Guard?
Favored Maneuver: Why not just use Combat Skill for the Improved combat feat. After all this does not explicitly say that the Avenger need not need the pre-requisites for the Improved feat. Once again, please define aware of.
Fist of the Avenger:Ah, a bonus feat talent better than Combat skill. Does not fit my image, but I could see it matching others. Alternatively, why not give 1/2 monk unarmed progression or monk level-4 or something similar? Just if you do go that way, please make sure to explicitly state that it does not work with Monastic legacy, but put in some tid bit about it stacking with monk levels, just levels in Avenger do not count for Monastic Legacy.
Heavy Training: Applies to the Gorum guy.
Living Shield: I really like this. It's cool, it's somewhat usable, and it hits an opponent with another opponent's attack OR drops the grappled condition off of you and stops you from dealing with that.
Mad Rush: Pounce is useful, applies to both of my above images, and helps shore up the huge weakness with Startling Appearance. I'd like to see this at a lower level requirement, but I can actually understand this at 12th level. Pounce is powerful in the wrong hands.
Nothing Can Stop Me: I like the flavor of this. I have a funny image in my head of an evil baron sealed away in a fortress, thousands of traps lie in between our heroes (The two Avengers described in my above vision, they have now teamed up), and they decide to simply walk through the walls. Foolish Baron, your trapped hallways matter not for heroes such as we, and you shall NOT ESCAPE OUR VENGANCE. The actual mechanical benifits of this depend on how much damage one can do to each individula obstacle, and of course, the GM could always just say no. I do hate when those moments happen.
Shield of Fury: Yes. I am glad to see this, and I do not know why.
Signature Weapon: Creates an odd limbo where one is focused in a weapon, but not proficient in its use. Please give proficiency along with focus. Otherwise this is definitely good for my vision, and is better than just a single bonus feat.
Suckerpunch: Please just treat this as nonlethal sneak attack damage that scales as you have it written.
Unexpected Strike: I'm fine with this for the same reason I am fine with Shield of Fury. Feels a little weaker than Signature Weapon, but it is better to grab this than Quick Draw from a bonus feat.
Unkillable: Yep, sae feeling as Unexpected Strike.
Vital Punishment: So.... Yes.
Final thoguhts on Specialization:
I can't help but feel that this is the only specialization I actually like. I like some of the ideas of the others, but this is the only one that I see as truly viable, without just having a completely better option. Maybe that's because I like skills, and I like the idea of fighter. And this allows me to choose when to get combat feats, and when to get some type of actual class ability.
Stalker:
Spoiler:
The flavor text of this just tells me Shadow Dancer, or basic rogue.
Class Skill: About everything I could want from a rogue.
Base Ability: I'd say just change this to sneak attack and call it good. No need to complicate it further and weaken it into d4s.
Vigilaten Talents: Another Day: Seems odd, some enemies will end up killing you after you use this anyway though.
Case the Joint[i]: I like this in combination with Social mode. I'd like to see an option to spend additional hours for additional rerolls. (Example - I roll a 40 on the Knowledge engineering check, giving me 2 rerolls, but I also spent an additional 2 hours, giving me a total of 4 rerolls.)
[i]Expose Weakness: Does this require the objects used on hand, or is it assumed I have them? Do I need to declare how I am lowering it's DR (With non-efficient ways, Example - spraying cold iron on a werewolf) automatically not working?
Foe Collision: Put a 1/round limit on this and make the nonlethal damage into lethal (becoming the same type as the damage causing this) and I'll think about taking this. Until then, I would only think about taking this with a multiply nonlethal sneak attack build, but that doesn't work because it's not actually sneak attack.
Hide in Plain Sight: Subject to DM, but Hide in Plain Sight is usually a decent option.
Leave an Opening: I like the idea of being surrounded with this, your enemies thinking that you are their ally, whirlwind striking with hidden strike, and then getting a free attack on them as their turns come up.
Mighty Ambush: See Leave an Opening.
Mockingbird: I see the use for this. I could do a lot with this depending on the GM.
Perfect Fall: I only have one question for you: If two Stalkers jump off a cliff overlooking a city, side by side, can one of the pull out a plank and both use that as the surface?
Perfect Vulnerability: I don't know if I would take this. I feel like it would be safe to boost this up to a 1/round in place of one of your normal attacks, but maybe not.
Pull into the Shadows: I like this in conjunction with Mighty Ambush.
Rogue Talent: I understand.
Rooftop Infiltrator: I don't really know what to think of this. I see why it is an option, though I don't think I would ever actually take it.
Shadow's Sight: I'm cool with this, though I would add double low-light vision if they already have low-light vision.
Silent Dispatch: Personally I'd like to see this without the "first action in combat" line, and with something specifying that they still need cover or concealment added."
Sniper: This is something I'd like to see added to rogues if it hasn't already been.
Strike the Unseen: Necessary if fighting in shadows.
Surprise Strike: An odd ability, but synergizes well enough.
Throat Jab: Odd thought when used with ranged, but alright.
Twisting Fear: On it's own I am wondering what's going on. In combination with the base class abilities, I can sort of see the usefulness here.
Up Close and Personal: It's useful to have an extra way of applying sneak attack.
Final Thoughts on Specialization:
I like the idea of it, but I feel like it would be better if hidden strike were just sneak attack. There are some things I like out of this, but ultimately I think I'd be better off choosing Unchained Rogue.
Warlock
Spoiler:
Alright, this is looking like it might be a full-class Arcane Trickster, or maybe just some odd Magus doing.
Skills: Looks good, but why is Spellcraft linked to charisma in this?
Base abilities: Wizard list is good. I've liked the idea of Arcanist casting since I saw it. I don't particularly like having to take talents to increase casting power, but it does fit with most other classes. The first sentence in the last paragraph of Arcane Training I has a typo. It should read, "Like a sorcerer, a warlock vigilante can choose..." I like spellbooks.
Vigilante Talents Arcane Training II: I don't like having to take a talent to increase casting power, but it does fit with several other classes.
Arcane Training III: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training IV: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training V: See Arcane Training II.
Arcane Training VI: See Arcane Training VI.
All of Arcane Training: Levels 4, 8, 10, 14, and 16 you effectively lose your talents. That's 5 talents given up for Magus/Bard casting with the wizard list. Right now I am not liking this and am seeing it as more of a tax than a feature.
Arcane Striker: I would rather play a magus than take this ability. 12th level is too high to add in flaming and it's equivalences. I could do this at 5th level as a Magus.
Bombs: I don't know why I didn't expect to see this. Seems alright as is, though if you take this at 2nd level, you won't be able to get a discovery until 6th level.
Bond of Blood: That seems evil. If nothing else it can help a Warlock be a front liner a little, though so far I'm noticing an issue with not being able to ignore arcane spell failure chance. Blood Armor is a spell that I don't really see as being all that good. As is, right now, I'd rather see Mage Armor in this spot.
Caster's Defense: What alignment must be chosen if the vigilante's alignment is true neutural?
Concealed Casting: I don't know what to say about this.
Educated Defense: This is a nice way to counterspell. Basically means that at 6th level your talent is likely taken up now.
Elemental Battle Armor: Necessary if you are going melee, though it doesn't really do that much damage. I'd end up stacking it with shock shield or the like.
Familiar: I don't know that I would ever be able to fit this in, except maybe at a high level.
Living Shadow: Where did this come from? I feel like this should be under Stalker due to its flavor text.
Mystic Bolt: So at level 4 I have to chose between a good ability, or 2nd level spells. I'll take the spells, and then at 6th level take this. Oh wait, that's taken up by a lot of other things. I'm noticing more and more Arcane training just severely limiting the options this class has.
Nonlethal Spellcasting: I don't know what to think of this. Nonlethal is usually a decent option, though I don't think I could fit it into any of the available talent slots.
Shadow Jump: See Living Shadow.
Signature Spell: Isn't this a trait?
Social Simulacrum: I like this more than I should. Too bad it isn't really available until level 12.
Tattoo Chamber: I see this being used to store wands and the like. It's weird, but I like it.
Example Warlock talent selections based on what I would want:
Level 2: Bond of Blood
Level 4: Arcane Training II (Magus also get spell recall here, Warlock gets nothing else)
Level 6: Educated Defense
Level 8: Arcane Training III (1 level behind Magus, Magus also gets Improved spell combat here, but that's more of an improvement)
Level 10: Arcane Training IV (Back on track with Magus, Magus's fighter training is alright, but its not worth complaining about)
Level 12: Mystic Bolt
Level 14: Arcane Training V (1 level behind Magus, Greater spell combat is pretty good, but I just get access to the same level of spells, while magus last left learned how to use heavy armor, and this level Greater spell combat)
Level 16: Arcane Training VI (Back on track with Magus, Magus gets a bonus feat this level)
Level 18: Tattoo Chamber
Level 20: Social Simularcrum (I really feel like the options here have basically run out)
Fnal Thoughts on Specialization
I can't help but feel that this is really weak due to having Arcane Training like that. With the above example magus just flat out smashes this. Perhaps I should've compared it more with bard, but I feel that, with it's current set up, it competes more with Magus, but should basically lose every time. I also feel like Warlock needs Bard's armor proficiency.
Zealot
Spoiler:
This gives me a funny idea of a worshipper of Urgathoa (Zealot U) and a worshipper of Pharasma (Zealot P). Both are vigilantes. Both are Zealots. Both are in the same city. Zealot U's face is a priest of pharasma. He has no real powers, but his vigilante mode takes him as a worshipper of Urgathoa. Gaining powers and spreading the good word of his pallid princess. Zealot U's vigilante is a divine caster within an underground church devoted to their patron.
Zealot P's face mode is very similar to Zealot U's. The twist is that her face is a woshipper of Urgathoa. In fact she is in the same church as Zealot U, but a lower member. In vigilante mode, she strikes down undead and returns all of those lost, to the Lady of the Graves.
These two have a lot of interaction with each other, and both never suspect the other of being the vigilante they truly are.
Class Skills: Seems alright.
Base Abilities: Oh boy, Divine training I. I see I'll be spending a lot of my talents to get better at divine casting. Why does this draw from the Inquisitor list? I like that list for Inquisitors, though I feel as though it would be better if this pulled from the Cleric list. This ability has contradictory wording, specifically, "He can cast any spell he knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time..." and, "Unlike the number of spells he can cast per day, the number of spells a zealot vigilante can prepare each day isn’t affected by his Charisma score."
Vigilante Talents Channel Energy: It's better than no channel energy option I guess
Discern Lies: Now I feel as though I almost have to compare this to inquisitor, and that just is not fair to this class.
Divine Bastion: This helps bring the Zealot's CMD up a little. It can even boost it a little over what it should be. I don't think this would actually help at higher levels, but I could see it useful as a party buff.
Divine Training II: I feel the exat same way about this as I do Arcane Training II.
Divine Training III-VI: See Divine Training II.
Domain: Continues making this look like a weak Inquisitor option.
Empoer Symbol: This has its use, in specific campaigns or for specific characters.
Life Bond: Seems like a good enough ability, though I'd prefer to see it go through damage reduction of yourself, or the target ally, whichever is better.
Penance Gaze: Uhh....?
Revivifying Touch: Bringing allies back is always good. It also happens to be at a level where taking it doesn't interfere with our casting power.
Stalwart: Conflicts with Revivfying touch, otherwise I do like Evasion for Fort and Will.
Stern Gaze: More Inquisitor?
Track: More Inquisitor?
Final Opinions on this Specialization: this just seems like a sub-par inquisitor. I see some interesting abilities in here, but I feel like most character concepts would just be better off as an archetyped Inquisitor. You've given this specialization several inquisitor abilities, the inquisitor spell list, and because of that, I think it'll just get compared to the inquisitor a lot more than you will want it to. Even the ideas I got from the flavor text could be done as Infiltrator Insquistors, and probably be better off that way if they just focused on disguise.
Vigilante Feats Sidebar:
Are they really that powerful? Yes, some of them are, but many feel like something I might expect to see on a rogue talent list.
These Vigilante Talents are not that much more powerful than a feat: I'm sure a lot of these are debatable
Spoiler:
Avenger
Armor Silence - I can definitely understand an argument saying this is too powerful for a feat, it feels on the fence to me though
Armor Skin - same as above
Close the Gap - This feels like it could've been a feat anyway, though more of an end of chain feat
Combat Skill
Environment Weapon - this is actually weaker than Catch Off Guard
Favored Maneuver - This is only slightly stronger than its corresponding feat
Heavy Training
Nothing Can Stop Me
Suckerpunch
Unexpected Strike - Only gets slightly better at 8th level
Unkillable - Only gets a bit better at 12th level
Vital Punishment - Only situationally better than Vital strike
Stalker
Another Day - It isn't actually all that strong
Case the Joint
Expose Weakness - This depends on how you clarify how this works.
Hide in Plain Sight - I can nab a rogue version of it as a talent
Mighty Ambush - Similar Slayer talent
Rogue Talent - Wait, so can I take Extra Rogue Talent if I'm a Stalker?
Silent Dispatch
Suprise Strike - Feels like a rogue talent anyway
Up Close and Personal
Warlock
Arcane Training II-VI - I already have a level requirement on them, I'd rather be able to get actual abilities via talents and spend feats to nab these
Concealed Casting - This feels like it should be a feat anyway
Educated Defense - Extra arcanist exploit
Elemental Battle Armor
Familiar - Arcanist's have a familiar exploit right?
Nonlethal Spellcasting
Signature Spell
Social Simulacrum
Zealot
Discern Lies
Divine Bastion
Divine Training II-VI - See Arcane Training
Empower Symbol - I'd actually like to see this as a feat. Maybe with the 10th level version being a seperate feat requiring the first, though a lot of people don't like feat chains like that.
Life Bond
Penance Gaze - I am having a really hard time developing an opinion on this ability for some reason
Stern Gaze
Track
Final thoughts: I like the idea of this class, perhaps I'm missing something, but I feel like it could be executed better. I've given input in areas where I feel like it could use improvement, though I don't always know a better way to do something. If the class were released as-is, I think I'd end up using Avenger. If I were to go Stalker I'd go rogue or slayer. If I were to go warlock, I'd go with magus. I wouldn't go Zealot as is, it only feels like a weak inquisitor.
Through this I will refer to World A (the world they start on), and World B (the world they go to). Also, these are only my opinions. Do not take what I say to be 100% on what you should or should not do. Do not let me dissuade you from running it, I simply ask that you look at what I have to say, and see the impact that some options could have. Use this to hopefully fill any missing gaps, as these are questions that would run through my head as a player.
Shaden wrote:
I am making a world and I have two twists that I'm not sure how to incorporate them:
First the characters start off in the world of Pathfinder but then are eventually whisked away to another world that has different rules that govern magic. But these rules wouldn't come into affect until they are in the new world.
As a player, this is what I am thinking:
What are these rules? How do they change how magic works? Will casting PCs (Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/etc) be able to learn how these rules work and use them to cast spells normally? Is magic harder to use here, or easier? Why? Can a caster even cast anything? Why didn't I get my will save before being teleported?
As a GM/Rules Lawyer I am wondering:
Does this fundamentally change the core mechanics of magic? If so, how? Why does this world have such different rules of magic that it is worth bringing up? Does this completely shut down casters? Will they be able to learn how to utilize this new way of casting?
Is this world even in the same universe? If it is indeed in another universe, do the gods from World A have power in World B? If the gods' power does not reach here, the following classes are virtually useless, as they lose most or all of their abilities, until they either change to a deity in World B, or can gain a connection with their deity: If these classes are not gaining power from a deity, they will still possibly be fine.
Spoiler:
Cleric - Treat as a fallen Cleric
Druid - This may still be fine as I find druidic magic odd, but seperation from their world may cause issues
Paladin - A paladin without connection to their deity should be treated as a fallen paladin
Ranger - Arguable to be either way here, but see druid
Inquisitor - Treat as a fallen Inquisitor
Oracle - Should lose all class abilities, and possibly even their curse
Witch - Patron, this could potentially cause them to lose all of their abilities, or be entirely unaffected
Antipaladin - See paladin
Hunter - See Druid
Shaman - See Oracle and Witch
Warpriest - See Cleric
Due to magic being changed, the following classes could have unforseen issues:
Spoiler:
Barbarian - Certain rage powers may stop working
Bard - Shouldn 't be able to use Bardic performances, as they are magical in nature
Monk - Could lose ki and ki abilities, depends on your personal viewpoints on spirit magics (This affects: Ki pool, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty body, and probably Perfect Self)
Sorcerer - Should lose access to most, if not all of their bloodline powers. Could effectively make this class equivalent to a commoner
Wizard - Nothing in this class should really work here, but if magic from World A that was applied in World A still works in World B, then their familiar/Arcane bond will be fine. They should lose access to all school abilities as all of that time spent learning schools and how that works no longer has any real meaning anymore. This class basically turns into a commoner (with less feats for their level as a lot of those feats probably went into spellcasting.)
Alchemist - A lot of this class shouldn't work in World B.
Cavalier - Huh? Why is this here? It's possible that they could be considered to have done something against their orders code, though those are specific codes
Magus - Should basically be only slightly more useful than the wizard, too much for me to even go into here
Summoner - Does World B even have access to the same planes as World A?
Witch - has actually been covered with the divine classes
Ninja - See Monk
I do not wish to keep going with this.
Now I know a lot of this has been fairly negative, and there have been a lot of questions. This could be interesting to have as a temporary setback. While frustrating, it forces those characters back a bit, and makes them have to solve their problems in a way they wouldn't ordinarily be have to. However, some classes are affected by this a lot more than others. With primary arcane casters potentially being useless until they learn how to tap into the magic of World B, and divine casters potentially being completely cut off from that which gives them magic, this could cause those playing those characters to not have fun. Alternatively they may love it. That just depends on the individual player.
Shaden wrote:
Should I tell the players and spring the changes on them so they are surprised when it happens or tell them about the changes and ruin the surprise.
That depends on your players. If you think they would rather be surprised, then let them be surprised, though if you plan on the setbacks to be a permanent issue (and not an issue they clan learn their way out of), then I would highly suggest at least attempting to guide them away from some problem classes, and possibly even banning the use of certain classes. If you plan on it just being a setback for a session or two, then sure don't warn them, don't try to pull them away from certain classes, just let them find out.
If they don't like nasty surprises like this, and will probably take things very negatively, I'd suggest letting them know that at some point things will change a lot, and possibly just let them know that entire twist.
Shaden wrote:
Second at some point in the game they will get betrayed and two things could happen. They could be immobilized and what ever happens happens. This would happen around mid levels but then they would be rescued and then have to stop their betrayer.
Keep in mind that there are a lot of ways to become mobile again, possibly even before your betrayer even gets away. Most of this involves magic, though occasionally an alchemical item could get them out just as easily. Or the 20 Str Barbarian could go rage and just walk out.
As far as being saved, I don't really like that as a player. I've been in the middle of a fight with a BBEG, and had everything stolen from a long, grueling, gritty battle, simply because the DM decided to have a squad of elite soldiers show up and finish him off.
Then of course there was the time where my level 10-12 magus went toe to toe with a level 20 lich, hit him with Black Tentacles, got hit with (I forgot the name but it summons shackles to pin you), and the only reason I lived was because he was completely out of spells, due to a fight we had been seeing with another level 20 wizard and me technically working for him (that is a long story.) I was even left to die there by the lich and everyone else. Probably the only reason I lived after the fight, was due to the party's Dwarven fighter was off defending a church. So I picked up my dead friend and went home after being freed by said Dwarf.
Moral of that story? I enjoyed going into a fight that I full-well knew I would not come out of alive much more than having the end of a well earned fight stolen from me by some Elite NPC squad.
Shaden wrote:
Or they could build their characters to higher levels and be betrayed but the betrayal kills them and then a new campaign starts with the goal of fixing what happened to the world which was caused by their earlier characters. Now I was originally going to do the second option but I know that it takes time and planning to make characters and dying would tick them off pretty good but it would start a whole new campaign.
No rolls, you die sucks. It's boring, and probably should make the players annoyed.
Personal tangent that focuses more on me than your issue. Leaving it as it does have a bit of an example, but really only from the GM end.
Spoiler:
I actually did that once. I instantly regretted it, but it's what happens when you're running with no real planned material, and have been going about 48 hours straight. That and an argument on why a character shouldn't be dropped down to evil after he's been going murdohobo had me a bit mad at him, so I ended up just going with "Guard shows up, knows what you did, you die." But I was immensely tired. And I wasn't a good GM then anyway. Granted I still don't think I'm all that good, but I do try a lot more than I did then. And then there's obviously the annoyance of fighting someone that is immeasurably more powerful than you are. That has.... a bit of an annoyance to it, and is something I try to avoid, but I am concerned it will come up in the Star Wars game I'm running right now where the PCs could end up trying to punch Vader.
With this twist, honestly I would just find a good stopping point for the first group. Wrap things up. Do closure. Have them kill the BBEG even. Do end of game stuff. Tell them their characters went on to build that inn they wanted. Whatever. Then when PC group #2 shows up, they find out that the old BBEG was just a minor guy. Now the real BBEG has shown his face, has forced PC group #1 together, killed them, and now it's up to PC group #2 to avenge their old characters.
But leave the deaths of PC group #1 offscreen at all times. Just say that it happens, and the only person that truly knows what happened is the BBEG.
Wow, looking back at that, that is a lot. I apologize for my input being that long.
Alright so I typed out a bunch of stuff then lost it, but basically from what I can tell that falls under 15 RP which is advanced, which should be fine.
Some of the race stuff I feel is just stuff that you want for your build, rather than for the race in general, but I won't go into that any further.
The vestigial wings feel unnecessary, as you have wings that actually let you fly, and flying creature get an innate bonus on fly checks if I remember correctly.
I also only see rules for down to size tiny, not diminutive, and this size modifies +2 Dex and -2 Str
You are also lacking attribute modifiers from the race itself (Such as an elf getting +2 DEX/INT -2CON)
I think that was all.
No problem, I'd also suggest listening to LazarX's comment about building the race, and possibly thinking about Arcane Trickster. AT is less martial than I think you want, but it is pretty good for sneak attacking with spells, on top of being a full caster.
I did just remember another archetype
Greensting Slayer It's a Magus archetype that uses its arcane pool to get sneak attack. I'm not all that familiar with it, but ability wise you might be interested in it.
Alright, I have some ideas that might be able to help you with this idea, and help it make it a bit more balanced. I don't really have any experience with building classes, and there will probably be gaps for you to fill in if I flesh it out, but I suggest looking at a couple classes first, that way, if you like the archetype suggestions, it's a lot less work for me.
Sandman Bard Gives up some bardic stuff for other bardic stuff, but gets sneak attack
Stygian Slayer Loses some slayer talents and an ability that's basically worthless for your idea for UMD castery stuff
There might be a few others out there that are kind of similar, but they aren't coming to mind right now.
If those don't do it for you, then are you dead set on having level 9 spell progression? And would you prefer this to be more martial or more caster-like?
