Death Ward, Energy Drain, & Death Attacks

[Peter Stewart]

Death Ward

Energy Drain and Negative Levels

Death Attack inflicting negative levels

This subject came up this weekend. The party was setting up to fight a group of Bodaks, warding up with death ward, and were informed by the GM that his reading was that while Death Ward would provide a save bonus (against death attacks) and you would take no penalties from negative levels while it was active, Death Ward would not prevent you from picking up Bodak negative levels from their gaze. In effect, they could still kill you with enough failed saves, and when the death ward wore off you'd have the negative levels you picked up off of failed saves.

I'm less interested in arguing the point with the GM, and more interested in whether this is (1) how others would read the rules, (2) whether it is the intended reading, or (3) whether it is simply an unintended side effect of the large nerfs that 3.5 era Death Ward got in Pathfinder.

As has come up in the past, the negative levels / energy drain rules are all over the place as is. Any reading of what the CRB has to say vs. what the Bestiary says indicates that at some point there was a disconnect.

Was this just another place that rules changes were not smooth / messy?

Interested in opinions.

[dragonhunterq]

Hmmm! I was all ready to say that your GM was wrong, but on closer reading the Bodaks Death Gaze is a death effect, not an energy drain. They are not the same thing. It gives you negative levels, yes, but by a different mechanism. Looks like your GM was spot on.

I can't speak as to the intended reading or if it is a side effect - it could well be deliberate. It is certainly how I read the rules as they exist now though.

[mplindustries]

Death Ward makes you immune to energy drain. Negative levels are defined as being caused by energy drain. Ergo, in addition to being a death effect, the bodak's death gaze is also energy drain. You would be immune to it while subject to Death Ward.

[Archaeik]

RAW, it is clear the Bodak does not have "Energy Drain" even though they bestow negative levels, but let's compare the 3.5 Bodak

Death Gaze (Su) wrote:

Death, range 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. Humanoids who die from this attack are transformed into bodaks 24 hours later. The save DC is Charisma-based.

No energy drain here either, not even negative levels, just save or die!

I can't be 100% certain the dissociation of these particular negative levels from Energy Drain is intentional, but given that you also get your save up front (instead of 24 hrs later), it certainly seems like an intentional move to keep their flavor but make them less deadly.

in short
The Bodak's Death Gaze is not an Energy Drain at all and does not use those rules. Instead, it is a Death Attack (like it always was), whose protection was intentionally reduced during the transition to PFRPG. A creature affected gets to save up front vs permanent negative levels rather than gaining the "Energy Drained" condition.

Edit: I want to point out also a key difference from energy drain.
Energy Drain attached to an attack is [almost?] universally a no initial save scenario; you only get a save to prevent the negative level from becoming permanent 24hrs later.

[mplindustries]

Archaeik wrote:

RAW, it is clear the Bodak does not have "Energy Drain" even though they bestow negative levels, but let's compare the 3.5 Bodak

The idea that it could give someone negative levels (which is the definition of energy drain) without having "energy drain," is very confusing to me. That's like suggesting a creature could permanently drain someone's Charisma with having "ability drain."

[Archaeik]

mplindustries wrote:

Archaeik wrote:

RAW, it is clear the Bodak does not have "Energy Drain" even though they bestow negative levels, but let's compare the 3.5 Bodak

The idea that it could give someone negative levels (which is the definition of energy drain) without having "energy drain," is very confusing to me. That's like suggesting a creature could permanently drain someone's Charisma with having "ability drain."

It is a logically fallacy to require the two to be interchangeable just because one term causes the other.

ie. just because Energy Drain always cause negative levels does not imply negative levels can only come from Energy Drain.

[Peter Stewart]

Archaeik wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

Archaeik wrote:

RAW, it is clear the Bodak does not have "Energy Drain" even though they bestow negative levels, but let's compare the 3.5 Bodak

The idea that it could give someone negative levels (which is the definition of energy drain) without having "energy drain," is very confusing to me. That's like suggesting a creature could permanently drain someone's Charisma with having "ability drain."

It is a logically fallacy to require the two to be interchangeable just because one term causes the other.

ie. just because Energy Drain always cause negative levels does not imply negative levels can only come from Energy Drain.

This is true. The two however are linked in the CRB.

[Archaeik]

The section in the CRB (which is the only reason I said above that I can't be 100% certain) is for the details about negative levels bestowed by Energy Drain and not any other source.

Honestly, I do not actually see a RAW conflict here, but while I acknowledge the potential RAI issue, your real question is:
Are Bodaks intended to either have Energy Drain or use the Energy Drain rules for the negative levels they bestow?

I'd argue the answer to both those concerns is no.

[dragonhunterq]

There are a number of ways to gain negative levels without energy drain being involved such as returning to life, or holding an intelligent aligned magic item that is a different alignment from yours - off the top of my head.