So i made another class, this one is a hybrid class having the parents as the unchained rogue and the fighter.
looking for input on what people think.
Specific things i'm worried about are:
free exotic weapon proficiency, good or no
Being able to finesse two-handers(even hammers), is the limit on x1 dex to damage necessary, right now I limit the weapon to still requiring two hands to wield but counting as being one-handed for feats and effects.
6+intmod skill points, I want it to be useful outside of combat but are 6+int necessary with already a focus on int.
the amount of bonus feats and rogue talents on top of a deed system. I know it's probably stronger than a swashbuckler but the swashbuckler is pretty weak.
Canny Pacing Deed - good or should i tone it down slightly
Weapon-Meister Training and Weapon training, should I tone them down, combine them, etc?
Canny Positioning, too strong? I don't imagine the class will ever get amazing int unless you specifically go for defense, but a possible 10 dodge bonus to AC can be substantial(but that requires 30 int so...).
I agree with whomever suggested moving the 3rd expertise to 16th level. thank you.
Welp:
1) The saves are wrong. At best it should have good fort and reflex. It shouldn't have a good will save based on parent classes. And really it should only get 1 good save.
2) Hit dice or skill are too high. Either the HD should be reduced to d8 or skill reduced to 4+int/level.
3) Free exotic weapon proficiency can be too strong. Specifically in this case the best course of action is to wield a falcata in two hands. Either that or free proficiency in Saw-tooth sabers. They get bonus feats already anyways, make them spend one on it or take away a bonus feat.
4) You're infringing a lot on the swashbuckler. Especially by giving it an improved version of parry and riposte.
As far as I can tell, so far you've made a new class that it just blatantly superior to the swashbuckler, fighter, and rogue. From that design point, it already fails to be acceptable in my opinion.
I agree with whomever suggested moving the 3rd expertise to 16th level. thank you.
Whoo Hoo! Bardarok's secret Identity for the win. I knew that social persona ability would be useful....anyways.
More thoughts:
I disagree with Claxon that Free exotic weapon proficiency is too good, though I do agree that the falcata is too good as it is blatantly superior, I always ban the falcata.
As far as balance goes all classes should be stronger than the vanilla fighter and a rogue. Though I do agree your stepping on the swashbuckler's toes. Maybe start with the chassis of an "unchained" slayer.
You do need to define your focus a bit though:
If you want to focus on using interesting exotic weapons I would suggest something to raise base weapon damage like the war-priest has, that way people don't feel stupid for using a sai or a flail.
If you want to focus on maneuvers you will need to do some major bonuses to them, maybe remove an opponents size bonuses to CMD as the doubling up of size bonuses to Str and size bonuses to CMD make combat maneuvers indefeasible against large monsters.
why does it get fighter weapon training when the 3rd level ability already replicates it? also it was always only a +1 at 5th lvl but scaled every 4 levels? also is it necessary for it to be 1/2 level for counting for feats? Swashbuckler and Warpriest both count as full level for their abilities?
Weapon-Meister Training and Weapon training, should I tone them down, combine them, etc?
just saying, i was looking into opinions on this, it's mostly to fill up dead levels and to make it more focused but still allow other weapon usage or even for them to not overlap. but i was wondering if they should be combined or used the old weapon training
You do need to define your focus a bit though:
If you want to focus on using interesting exotic weapons I would suggest something to raise base weapon damage like the war-priest has, that way people don't feel stupid for using a sai or a flail.If you want to focus on maneuvers you will need to do some major bonuses to them, maybe remove an opponents size bonuses to CMD as the doubling up of size bonuses to Str and size bonuses to CMD make combat maneuvers indefeasible against large monsters.
i've been actually running off of a chassis from earlier that was a fighter archetype, but yeah adding in unchained rogue elements has been weird, this has been the most difficult class to get feel right for me.
but I think this helps the maneuver bonuses were from the old archetype, maybe replacing them with something similar to the warpriests damage dice ability.
I also think i'm going to remove weapon training and but Weapon-Meister training deed. give it more of a focus on it's specific weapons.
Welp:
1) The saves are wrong. At best it should have good fort and reflex. It shouldn't have a good will save based on parent classes. And really it should only get 1 good save.
hmm maybe you're right, but fort doesn't feel right and reflex is bad, maybe i'll go with reflex and replace one of the defunct abilities with a way to increase saves.
2) Hit dice or skill are too high. Either the HD should be reduced to d8 or skill reduced to 4+int/level.
Aren't HD and BAB tied? would reducing hitdice require the lowering of BAB, I don't like changing something from the norm, I could do the reduce skills, but I want the class to have more wiggle room outside of combat.
3) Free exotic weapon proficiency can be too strong. Specifically in this case the best course of action is to wield a falcata in two hands. Either that or free proficiency in Saw-tooth sabers. They get bonus feats already anyways, make them spend one on it or take away a bonus feat.
perhaps, but even then they could still use a bonus feat and be in the same boat as you say.
4) You're infringing a lot on the swashbuckler. Especially by giving it an improved version of parry and riposte.As far as I can tell, so far you've made a new class that it just blatantly superior to the swashbuckler, fighter, and rogue. From that design point, it already fails to be acceptable in my opinion.
this is actually kind of the idea. I wanted to make a class that keeps the core fluff well of a fighter or swashbuckler and has mechanics like those classes, but was more on par with paladin. Though maybe it does require some trimming, maybe enough to keep the 6+intmod and full BAB.
hmmm decisions.
updated it, I need a different deed at 11th level and still want something to replace the maneuver deeds.
that's a deed for 1st, 7th and 11th level. be cool if someone had an idea that makes them all related in some way. need something minor though as the other deeds are already pretty good.
I had issue with wording it in a way that wasn't from the rogues perspective, I used the barbarian version though. It may have been because I was sleepy at the time, my ability to process sentences goes down a great deal when i'm sleepy
I think level 1 is pretty heavy. Proficiencies on par with a fighter, deeds, and a free feat. I see you lowered the skill points to 4.
I think you could keep the skills at 6 if you got rid of heavy armor proficiency and the exotic weapon. You grant Weapon Finesse, which encourages a high Dex. Why would he learn to wear heavy armor?
Speaking of Weapon Finesse, why are you forcing the character into Dexterity? Perhaps it could be an option, but I think the player should be able to choose which ability score will govern his attacks.
Under "class features" you list the class name as hedgewizard.
I think level 1 is pretty heavy. Proficiencies on par with a fighter, deeds, and a free feat. I see you lowered the skill points to 4.
I think you could keep the skills at 6 if you got rid of heavy armor proficiency and the exotic weapon. You grant Weapon Finesse, which encourages a high Dex. Why would he learn to wear heavy armor?
Speaking of Weapon Finesse, why are you forcing the character into Dexterity? Perhaps it could be an option, but I think the player should be able to choose which ability score will govern his attacks.
Under "class features" you list the class name as hedgewizard.
The classes finesse option are tied to many class features that have nothing to do with dex, allowing for a strength build. so here is no forcing happening.
this actually reminded me of a feature idea, which was int to initiative, which i can use to replace one of the maneuver deeds.
edit: and by how well i am typing i can tell it;s time for me to stop for today.
updated it some more to give an option instead of weapon finesse, I think it's balanced but I want to know if anyone thinks it's worded poorly or could use some toning back.
Weapon Finesse seems redundant when the character can choose any weapon and use Dex for attack and damage. It doesn't say that it has to be a weapon compatible with weapon finesse. Its essentially a class feature on top of a free feat, instead of a class feature that compliments the free feat.
As far as the free weapon finesse goes, its not as interesting as the Dex option, and its still a bonus feat on top of everything else gained at 1st level.
The Dex option is here to stay. Got it. So lets think about other options. What about one that grants heavy armor and shield proficiency, and then improves somehow as levels are gained. What about an unarmed strike or ranged weapon variant?
The Dex option is here to stay. Got it. So lets think about other options. What about one that grants heavy armor and shield proficiency, and then improves somehow as levels are gained. What about an unarmed strike or ranged weapon variant?
well the current effect you can choose ranged weapons and unarmed strikes and they'd gain the damage dice at the correct levels.
You only gain dex-hit-damage if you choose the weapon finesse line, and it works prior to 3rd level. but your right possible removing the first level feat thing and making it only about choosing your weapon at third level would be best.
updated a bit so the class is still customizable but doesn't have everything all at once.
The order in which information appears in the Expertise class feature needs to be amended. For simplicity, I think you should separate it into two class features: one strictly for the ability scores (level 1), and one strictly for the chosen weapons (level 3+)
As written now, the Dex warrior gains nothing at level 1.
As written now, the Dex warrior gains nothing at level 1.
and yet it's the largest paragraph of the three...
honestly i feel it's fine, i think agile is balanced between the other two options and i can't think of anything to give it.
edit: bumped choosing expert weapons forward a few levels.
Expertise (Ex): A meister trains exhaustively with her arms to develop a fighting style that emphasizes her strengths. At 1st level, she chooses Agile, Intelligent, or Strong. At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, she chooses one weapon. Henceforth, these weapons are referred to as her expert weapons. Once chosen, the fighting style and expert weapons cannot be changed. As a meister advances in level, she continues to expand her fighting style through mastery of new weapons.
Agile
An agile meister gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. When making an attack with an expert weapons, she can add her Dexterity bonus in place of her Strength bonus on damage roll, but a Strength penalty still applies. A meister does not apply 1-1/2 times her Dexterity bonus when wielding an expert weapon in two hands.
Strong
A strong meister gains Heavy Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency as bonus feats. Each time she chooses an expert weapon, she also gains the relevant Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat.
Intelligent
An intelligent meister can make an Intelligence check instead of a Dexterity check when making an initiative check. When wielding an expert weapon, she can add her Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to her AC against attacks of opportunity. When she scores a critical hit with an expert weapon, she can add her Intelligence bonus to the damage roll (but she does not multiply it).
Additionally, whenever a meister deals damage with an expert weapon, the weapon damage is based on her level and not the weapon type. The damage for Medium meister is listed on the main class table; see the table below for Small and Large meisters. The meister can decide to use the weapon's base damage instead of the expert weapon damag - this must be declared before the attack roll is made. This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn't apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that only deal energy damage.
while shorter several of the effects are missing, and it's not worded like other relevant abilities.
though dear lord, looking over some of what i wrote, it's obvious how tired i was when I wrote it.
@ intelligence i'm basically just using the duelist's ability hence the half level thing, though i suppose it was a silly restriction on the PrC too.
They're not missing. I took liberties. :)
It's worded how paizo words their stuff.
well agile is suppose to make a two-hander behave as a one-hander for effects for instance. a couple things actually want a one-hander for stuff i see an agile person wanting. and it also means you can't apply effects that work on two-handers only, power attack gives a +2 only. etc.
Strong specifically is designed so it;s special thing is weapon focus, weapon spec, dazzling display, etc, all only need to be taken once to apply to all your expert weapons.
Intelligent got me thinking though, because its the only one that didn't effect your weapon in some way, i added a different implementation of your int to damage bit.
though, i Think i'm finally Done with the class. it behaves how i want it and has had it's focus narrowed down where it's mechanically thematic.