I like Gregor's idea of a stamina ability. I'm trying to make a balanced class, not just a fun/different one, so I'll try to keep it sensical.
Like the ki pool (it may as well just be ki, honestly), the stamina pool will be 1/2 class level plus... wisdom mod? Con? Dex? I'd do Con usually but he'd be such a physical heavy class between Str for damage, Dex for AC/init/etc, and then Con for this pool. Let's call it Wis mod for now, not permanent necessarily.
So level 1 you're looking at 4 stamina/day with a +3 wis. The ways I can think of the class using these points, based off the brainstorming above:
-Spend 1 as a swift for personal haste for dex or wis mod number of rounds.
-Spend 1 as a full round action to move your speed, making a number of attacks equal to those allowed by your BAB plus expending your AoOs for the round (in this case, would give Combat Reflexes free at level 1).
-???
If these seem whack or out of balance, they're very simple and changeable. I'd love some additional ideas or criticisms on this theoretical feature.
Wow, I love the feedback! A lot of different options and opinions, awesome.
I'm definitely not heart set on Dex to damage, I'm just looking for ways to make Dex an important part of the class. I like the haste rounds/day idea, that'd prob be base Dex mod+4 rounds at level 1.
One of the things that brought this kind of class to mind is how utterly frustrating it is to move to an opponent and then attack once. Rinse, repeat. Melee is static and predictable. I like all of these ideas for the new angle it provides. Consistently moving and attacking makes positioning more important than it is for most fighters or paladins.
The afterimages concept intruiges me. Maybe one is left everywhere he stops to attack, making it so he can flank with himself?
I think he should provoke AoOs, but maybe have increased AC against them and perhaps get bonus attack or damage against targets whose attacks he's evaded that round.
I concur that it's a light armor only clasS, and that making it only light /finesseable weapons is just limiting the player, and that's no fun. We'll leave dexterity out of damage, and as a couple of you mentioned increase damage after moving a set increment.
Love the ideas. Always refreshing to find people who know the system better than I do.
While I realize full BAB classes have d10s, the thought was to nerf the health of the class to make the features shinier. Usually exceptions are in the swing of healthy, like barbarians having d12s or rogues having skills out their shadowy arses, but I thought it was in line with the concept of fragile speed.
I'm truly not sure what I want to be above and beyond different. I like the styling behind dervish dancing and battle fury, where the agile warrior excels at hitting/dmging with Dex and hits everyone during his movement, risking AoOs to harm all foes in his path. That's stylish. I want to continue in that vein of thought. The swashbuckler has a lot to like in that regard, but I'm not looking for a rapier kind of thing. Let's assume the theme I stated above. Warping time and space to achieve high speed movement and attacks. Does this mean functioning as if under the effects of Haste a number of rounds/day, with the bonuses scaling? Does it look like a scaling version of Battle Fury? Just talking bout the primary class ability atm, but flavor additions are of course interesting and helpful as well.
That's sort of the question I'm asking with this thread. What would you put at the core of this kind of class to build the rest of the class around?
The feedback garnered here would theoretically help to mold it into a theme. Maybe its a dashing genius that bends and breaks the rules of time and space, pushing their body to the limit to move faster and farther than their opponents can keep up with. Or whatever. It just needs mechanics that fits the rules of the game, with desirable theme attached alongside or afterwards.
Also keep in mind 6+Int mod skills is massive for full BAB. The classes that have 6+Int or better are usually 3/4 BAB
6+Int or Better Classes:
Bard, 3/4th BAB
Inquisitor, 3/4 BAB
Ranger has it, as a full BAB class, but a great deal of its other class features are highly situational and it's the only one excluding the hybrid based off of it and the Rogue.
Rogue of course has 8+int, but that's one of the things that makes rogues truly unique. (same w Ninja, the rogue look-alike)
Hunter, 3/4 BAB
Investigator, 3/4 BAB
Slayer, full BAB based off Ranger and Rogue.
So while its not unheard of to have 6+Int, its usually one of the core features of the class or a benefit of being nerfed in the BAB field. Something to keep in mind.
"At 20th level, when a weapon-meister threatens a critical hit with an Expert Weapon. Furthermore, the critical thread range of such weapons increase by 1 (20 becomes 19, and so on), this ability counts as increasing the base weapons natural threat range."
That first sentence needs finishing.
Canny Positioning and Improved Uncanny Dodge are both very fitting for your angle. However don't forget the usual clause that goes with Improved Uncanny Dodge, which you've omitted. "This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character."
What would it look like? What would the primary feature be of the class? I'm trying to build a lightly armored skirmisher that darts into the fray with high ac, low hp and doing damage on the run. Probably full BAB, with a d8 hit die (I know this is low for full BAB, part of the class).
I've thought about some sort of corruption on Dervish Dance, a la the swashbuckling archetype:
Dervish Dance:
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls....
without the scimitar qualifier, maybe in combination with something similar to the bard Dervish Dancer archetype's Battle Fury:
Battle Fury:
At 20th level, the dervish dancer can unleash a whirlwind of blows while performing a battle dance. As a full-round action, he can take a single move action and unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move, up to a maximum number of attacks equal to the dervish dancer’s character level. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
And then throughout the levels add bonuses to move speed, initiative, etc.
Thoughts, advice? Would love some creative input on this one.
I'm hoping to build a swashbuckler for an upcoming campaign, and utilizing the radical feat Slashing Grace. I'm trying to use a bastard sword one handed with this feat in mind, but the only race I see that gets exotic weapon proficiency is the tengru. While it's a cool race, I want to explore other options. At first I thought the adopted trait would do the trick, but somehow there are both Racial Traits and Race Traits, and adopted helps with the latter when I desire the former. Any suggestions?
But if it weren't vs flat footed it would be spending 1 of your character's most likely 2-4 grit points (based off wis mod) to do a basic attack vs regular old AC with a free prone check. Which is.... fine, I guess, but it doesn't seem worthy of spending a grit point. I'd rather 5 foot step back, reload and shoot the foe point blank at that point.
Interesting. So the choice of words used in the description of Pistol Whip was purely fluff, and not intended to be overanalyzed? That sounds reasonable enough. Thanks for the feat mention, should help me to convince the GM to houserule it for me.
Not that I doubt you, but could you cite this information? Looking at the rules for surprise rounds (which is really the only relevant rules section I could find) it says a combatant can either take a move or standard action. Nowhere does it imply that an individual already in range to melee and acting in the surprise round would be denied the benefits of surprising an enemy i.e. an assassin in a crowd or some such.
As written, it sounds to me that the Pistol Whip feat for the Gunslinger class is a surprise action, which would then be resolved against flat-footed AC. However, I cannot find this explicitly stated anywhere in the rules or the forums. Could I get some clarification?
Pistol Whip Description:
Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger's size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
You're correct that it doesn't imply it in the description. However, had you glanced at the Early Firearms table, the relevant part of which I posted above, you would have seen that it shows the capacity as 2. This implies two barrels. Other guns on that chart with a capacity of two: Pistol, double-barreled; Buckler gun (double barreled in the description); and musket, double barreled.
Since the whole dueling thought seems prevalent in this brainstorm, would it work if the swashbuckler was given something along the lines of
"Once per enemy per round, if an opponent attempts to attack the swashbuckler and misses, the swashbuckler immediately rolls to attack with one weapon at her highest BAB"
or something. This would boost the damage output to a more reasonable level. If that sounds like too often, maybe # of times per encounter equal to their X modifier. This would give more of a back/forth feel to their individual fight, and make enemies think twice about attacking them. They'd need a decent AC to back this up, of course.
There was a feat in 3.X, not sure from where, that had that, but used AoOs.
Here it is.
Snake Fang Feat:
Snake Fang (Combat)
You can unleash attacks against an opponent that has dropped its guard.
Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent's attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.
So maybe adapt the above as an armed strike for the swashbuckler, given automatically at level 5 or something. To continue down the line of AoO, this would give the swashbuckler more incentive to move around the battlefield more:
Panther Style:
Panther Style (Combat, Style)
You can strike back at enemies who attack you when you move.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity.
Again, an auto grab at level, whatever, 3 or 5 or somesuch. Making the swashbuckler an AoO heavy mofo would actually be rather intruiging. Combined with disarms and tricks, this could make a pretty cool class.
Since the whole dueling thought seems prevalent in this brainstorm, would it work if the swashbuckler was given something along the lines of
"Once per enemy per round, if an opponent attempts to attack the swashbuckler and misses, the swashbuckler immediately rolls to attack with one weapon at her highest BAB"
or something. This would boost the damage output to a more reasonable level. If that sounds like too often, maybe # of times per encounter equal to their X modifier. This would give more of a back/forth feel to their individual fight, and make enemies think twice about attacking them. They'd need a decent AC to back this up, of course.
There was a feat in 3.X, not sure from where, that had that, but used AoOs.
That sounds mighty fine to me. I guess I could've just simplified it down to that XD
Since the whole dueling thought seems prevalent in this brainstorm, would it work if the swashbuckler was given something along the lines of
"Once per enemy per round, if an opponent attempts to attack the swashbuckler and misses, the swashbuckler immediately rolls to attack with one weapon at her highest BAB"
or something. This would boost the damage output to a more reasonable level. If that sounds like too often, maybe # of times per encounter equal to their X modifier. This would give more of a back/forth feel to their individual fight, and make enemies think twice about attacking them. They'd need a decent AC to back this up, of course.
True, but in my mind this has the foul taste of assumption making based off of the name of the weapon. It's not a hard conclusion to come to, of course, but on a weapon that already jumps a 1d12 from the second place damage dealing firearm, a jump of 3d12 seems crazy. Not that I'm complaining. I love the thought of toting a wheeled carriage laden with a seven foot musket around the battlefield. Who wouldn't? It's hilarious and crazy powerful.
I don't really know where on the messageboard this would be appropriate to post, so here it is.
Am I the only one that noticed that there's an inaccuracy with the double hackbut firearm?
Double Hackbut attributes:
Firearm Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Misfire Capacity Weight1 Type2 Special
Double hackbut 4,000 gp 2d10 2d12 ×4 50 ft. 1–2 (5 ft.) 2 18 lbs. B and P —
Here's a link to a pic of a real-life double hackbut:
Note the single barrel, not two. The "double" in "double hackbut" comes from the length of the barrel, not that it has a pair of barrels. The capacity for the PF hackbut is 2, but it should absolutely be a single barrel weapon. I don't mean to blow the cover of any sneaky gunslingers who noticed this and "forgot" to mention this. I guess I'm honestly just asking. Was this a mistake, or an intentional beefing of an already amazingly powerful weapon?
soupturtle The snap shot line is really super cool, I admit, and eventually threatening those extra feet is amazing. My main reason for not really thinking I want/need it is that I plan on spending a grand total of NO time in the front lines. Not to say that it won't happen now and again, of course, simply that I would rather invest my feats in making myself better at what I'll be doing 90% of the time rather than making a melee shooter. That's definitely some solid advice about precise shot, I didn't take into account that extra 1 from deadly aim making it a swing of 5 instead of 4 (not a huge difference, but every bit counts). I think I'll take your route on that, so thanks for help :)
Thank you all muchly for the help, again. I guess I could've been more clear on my questions and usage. This particular character is NOT for Society play, I was just asking about that for future reference. That's why the ability scores are rolled, not bought.
Gauss - my skills that I've put ranks into are as follows (if you want other totals, just let me know)
Aaaand my UMD is a whopping -1. Thanks, Obama-- err, Charisma.
(the above is a joke)
As for my favored class points, I'm open to suggestion. I've been warring over this internally myself. Thoughts?
Darkwarriorkarg - thanks for the reference, I've checked it out and looks like I'm going down a similar path to that which the author suggests, though I don't know if I'll go down the snap shot path, guess we'll have to see.
Rerednaw - thanks for the tips on ammo, and the blaringly obvious torch.
(the above is vaguely funny? Blaringly obvious? No takers?)
Again, thank you all for the help, sorry I'm infrequent, travelling a lot recently.
I could definitely invest in a short sword or boarding axe (thanks for the tip!). As far as the cartridges, I guess that is a lot, I'm new to PF and I don't really know how lenient my GM will be about time to craft or availability of the basic components to do so. I'll definitely look into that dark wood buckler and up the armor (the leather was left over from when I was budgeting myself). In addition to the cartridges coming out of my ears, you may notice I also got a lesser amount of powder and shot. I figure if I go into combat with a loaded gun, that first shot doesn't really matter for the speed at which I load it. Is this a safe assumption?
I guess Deadly aim makes a good bit of sense, that -4 is scary for a D&D kid but I suppose touch attacks make up for that pretty well.
So, for clarification- just make more cartridges as I go, instead of carrying around a sack of them like potatoes?
Also, I've been reading around and saw someone mention that they at one point multiclassed to wizard for access to abundant ammunition. I plan on sticking to my guns, as it were, and going full 'Slinger, but is here merit to what they did? It just seems like everywhere I look, gunslingers are complaining bout the cost of ammo and how it's harder to get access to better equipment down the road due to all that diverted income. Thoughts?
I can't wait to play this character, seems like its going to be a totally different experience than any other character I've played in D&D (monk, ranger, rogue a little cleric). Thanks again for the input!
Hello the paizo community. Dean here. I've finished rolling and fleshing out a Musket Master gunslinger for my group. Just thought I'd get some advice and feedback. So.
Grayson Hawthorne
Level 1 Musket Master (gunslinger)
Human (+2 to Dex, Extra feat: Precise Shot)
Traits: Indomitable- +1 to will
Rich Parents- 900g to start (ammo is so expensive)
Feats: Gunsmith (class feat)
Rapid Reload, Musket (archetype feat)
Point Blank Shot- +1 atk/dmg with ranged within 30ft
Precise Shot- remove -4 penalty to shooting into melee
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven
Equipment:
Musket, Masterwork; 1d12dmg (+1 to atk rolls masterwork, +1 atk/dmg within 30ft from Pt Blank Shot)
Leather Armor, +2 AC
Buckler, +1 AC (there's no penalty with 2 handed firearm, correct?)
90 paper cartridges
20 black powder doses/bullets
Powder Horn
Backpack
Gunsmith's kit
Water Skin
10 days rations
Anything else I'm missing I should have? Anything I should change? All feedback is appreciated. Also, I'm a little unsure of what to do to prep for a Pathfinder Society session. Help?
