Hello everyone! I was reading one of the discussion threads for Unchained Rogue and came across someone throwing out the idea of using the Elven Branched Spear since the Unchained rogue's Finesse training works with this weapon. I'm sure there's a couple of ways to pick up this exotic weapon but the easiest seem through the half-elf Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait or convincing your GM to allow the good ol' Heirloom weapon trait.
Anyhow, was wondering if anyone could help me make a character that could compete with the TWF path, that seems to be the strong path that everyone agrees on. A build progression of feats and talents for this possible reach path would be awesome. Could see this having a lot of potential, just don't have the experience other players do to make it awesome.
Thanks!! Look forward to see where this thread goes!!
according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.
Combat Reflexes, because reach and dex.
2 levels of Slayer or Ranger for the Ranger Combat Style (Two-handed weapon) for picking up Power Attack without the need of 13 STR.
Gang Up might be a nice addition so you can flank from behind your first-row melees.
according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.
Could I get the citation on this? I'd take you on your word but I want to be able to reference it later if I happen to do the EBS Rogue myself sometime.
As for the OP, I'm personally pretty down on TWF'ing for the Rogue as I don't think you can justify the to-hit penalties. The Branch Spear is the best option in general IMO, even if you have to pay for the feat the hard way. I think I'd actually recommend going Dual-Minded Half-Elf and paying for EBS with your 1st level feat; considering how terrible your will save is, getting iron will that will allow you to get iron will a second time later is going to be more valuable than that feat.
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according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.
Combat Reflexes, because reach and dex.
2 levels of Slayer or Ranger for the Ranger Combat Style (Two-handed weapon) for picking up Power Attack without the need of 13 STR.
Gang Up might be a nice addition so you can flank from behind your first-row melees.
That's pretty cool! Did not realize I would get that Dex multiplier!
Do you think there's a way to make an EBS rogue without dipping levels?
according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.Could I get the citation on this? I'd take you on your word but I want to be able to reference it later if I happen to do the EBS Rogue myself sometime.
As for the OP, I'm personally pretty down on TWF'ing for the Rogue as I don't think you can justify the to-hit penalties. The Branch Spear is the best option in general IMO, even if you have to pay for the feat the hard way. I think I'd actually recommend going Dual-Minded Half-Elf and paying for EBS with your 1st level feat; considering how terrible your will save is, getting iron will that will allow you to get iron will a second time later is going to be more valuable than that feat.
That would be a good idea, I do agree the saves are pretty bad. Do you think you could help me figure out a possible feat/talent progression for the EBS rogue? I don't trust myself due to the fact I will probably miss a lot of possibly better builds for it.
A Trip build could be neat for it.
You'd have Finesse, so Dex to Trip attempts made with the weapon.
You have Reach, and add a +2 to AoOs provoked by movement, which translates to a +2 to Trip anything that tries to get at you.
Then from there build it like a normal Reach build.
It really depends on what you want to do, exactly.
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If you find a way to make it fit, the capstone of the 5 level- PC Halfling Opportunist adds your sneak attack to your AoOs ;-)
If the OP is still considering being a Half-elf, then they qualify for Racial Heritage (Halfling).
In fact, it'd even be PFS legal, as both the feat and the Archetype are not from the Advanced Race Guide.
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A Trip build could be neat for it.
You'd have Finesse, so Dex to Trip attempts made with the weapon.
You have Reach, and add a +2 to AoOs provoked by movement, which translates to a +2 to Trip anything that tries to get at you.
Then from there build it like a normal Reach build.
It really depends on what you want to do, exactly.
I really like the idea! Might combine the trip with the Whirlwind feat chain since I dumped str and cant go power attack route :/ was thinking of taking 2 levels of fighter after lvl 4 since it seems im going to be pretty feat heavy.
The Whirlwind chain is so ridiculously Feat heavy it's never worth it.
If you find a way to make it fit, the capstone of the 5 level- PC Halfling Opportunist adds your sneak attack to your AoOs ;-)
That sounds amazing but I don't think I can afford to dip 5 levels and a feat (Racial heritage) to get it. Appreciate the idea though! ^.^
The Whirlwind chain is so ridiculously Feat heavy it's never worth it.
hmm, what do you suggest I do in regards to feats then? I really appreciate the help by the way! Was thinking of starting off with combat expertise to get gang up lvl 2 (through talent) then get combat reflexes lvl 3, following it up with imp trip then whirlwind chain.
BaB is an issue, as ever. When you qualify (at 8th, so 9th at the earliest unless you use Combat Trick on it) you probably want Lunge, just to keep out of those pesky Huge things' AoO zone.
I'm not really a Reach expert though. My one Reach build involved a whip, so that ate up all my Feats out of the gate. You have a few options.
Contributor
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Actually, given what he's already going for, Whirlwind Attack might not be the worst thing ever. (High praise, I know). He already wants CE, and Spring Attack has its uses for scout rogues - especially those with a reach weapon. At that point, it's just one more feat.
My basic thoughts on the build:
Race options are pretty much limited to elf-kind. Half-elves can take Ancestral Weapon, and elves can use an archetype to get MWP for the spear.
Archetypes:
-Swashbuckler grants the needed proficiency for an elf, and allows double-dipping on Combat Trick. The bonus on Acrobatics checks and saves against fear is gravy.
-Scout gives a decent reason for Spring Attack. Plus, even at 4th level, charging with a reach weapon leaves you far less overextended than a normal weapon - your teammates might even be able to move up and cover for you.
Thoughts? It's not the apex of optimization, but it's fairly basic and straightforward. ^_^
Related to Discussion
according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.
Combat Reflexes, because reach and dex.
2 levels of Slayer or Ranger for the Ranger Combat Style (Two-handed weapon) for picking up Power Attack without the need of 13 STR.
Gang Up might be a nice addition so you can flank from behind your first-row melees.
I just looked into it a bit, and you can in fact take levels in Slayer although Rogue is a parent class! So cool.
While looking at the archetypes I saw Vanguard, which obviously doesn't allow you to take the ranger fighting style for power attack, since it replaces that ability. Still Initiative bonus, a Teamwork feat and sharing the studied target thingy seem pretty sweet. But it delays power attack very far, requiring loads of slayer levels, I'm guessing they simply don't get enough sneak attack to be worth that. -- Though Precise Strike could be fun, if you also get gang up...
Though going with 2 Slayer levels as suggested should work.
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If the OP is still considering being a Half-elf, then they qualify for Racial Heritage (Halfling).
Thanks for confirming that Half Elves can take Racial Heritage. I wasn't 100% sure.
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Half-Elven Opportunistic Trip-stabber
with Ancestral Arms Elven Branched Spear (EBS)
Rough Outline
Unchained Rogue levels 1-3 (dex to attack and damage, sneak attack)
Undecided levels 4-5
Opportunist levels 5-10 (cap is sneak attacks on Attacks of Opportunity)
Slayer 2 levels (Powerattack with low str)
Underfoot Adept maybe 1 or more levels (improved tripping of big creatures) - If only dipping one level no reason not to add Sensei for giving Advice that works like Bardic performance
Later with greater trip they would provoke when they come at you, so you trip them, which provokes another, so you stab them mercilessly with powerattacking sneak attack.
Level by level it becomes clear how fuzzy my concept is still:
1: Feat Racial Heritage (Halfling); Rogue Weapon Finesse.
2: Rogue Talent (Weapon Focus)
3: Feat: Combat Reflexes (replace with Bodyguard when monk bonus feat grants this); Rogue: Finesse Training
4: Underfoot Adept: Improved Trip
5: Feat:Combat Expertiece; Underfoot Adept: Combat Reflexes (i.e. Bodyugard)
6-10: Opportunist stuff, Greater Trip and another Feat
If they take "Halfling" they qualify for the corresponding racial archetypes.
The Monk (Underfoot Adept) would benefit from the half-elf being a size bigger than halflings to begin with. Are there any other archetypes that can be added, that should be considered? Maybe Fighter (Lore Warden) 2 instead, for getting Combat expertice without needing Int 13?
However the Opportunist boosts the halfling luck ability... which the half-elf simply wouldn't have. Much like halflings with Jinx, as discussed here. Still a lenient GM that likes non-casters having pretty things too might allow the luck boosts to not go to waste.
Feedback wanted :)
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I would definately take rogue through 4th level, debilitating injury is crazy strong and makes the rogue one of the best if not the best melee debuffer in the game.
Also be sure to grab Minor Magic (whatever) and Major Magic (Longarm), combined with whirlwind attack, Longarm, Lunge, and a reach weapon you can hit everything in 20ft! Grabbing Arcane Training (Wizard) would let you use a wand of Enlarge person for free expanding that to everything in 25ft. Thats pretty awesome when combined with debilitating injury and riving strike and 25ft on either side is really really alot of space.
It would be very intensive but you could also grab Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses (or beg a fellow pc to do it) to be able to sneak attack everyone within 25ft with your whirlwind attack.
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Outside of a merciful weapon, is there any way of making a EBS do non-lethal damage to use with enforcer/sap master?
There's Virtuous Creed (Mercy), although the flavor matches poorly with Enforcer in my opinion. Might just be me, though. ^_^
I would definately take rogue through 4th level, debilitating injury is crazy strong and makes the rogue one of the best if not the best melee debuffer in the game.
Also be sure to grab Minor Magic (whatever) and Major Magic (Longarm), combined with whirlwind attack, Longarm, Lunge, and a reach weapon you can hit everything in 20ft! Grabbing Arcane Training (Wizard) would let you use a wand of Enlarge person for free expanding that to everything in 25ft. Thats pretty awesome when combined with debilitating injury and riving strike and 25ft on either side is really really alot of space.
It would be very intensive but you could also grab Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses (or beg a fellow pc to do it) to be able to sneak attack everyone within 25ft with your whirlwind attack.
Thanks for pointing that out! - Didn't see that yet... Debilitating injury is truly debilitating!
So 4 levels rogue, 1 level monk, 5 levels opportunist, 2 levels slayer, rest rogue or monk?
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Edit: hadn't really looked at whirlwind yet. Yes, that is quite amazing, but obviously feet intnesive and as someone said above, affording 5 level and 1 feat dip to make that happen isn't feasable. - Also I guess it wouldn't have to be a spear that aids in attacks of opportunity if you go poking everyone with it on your turn... though I guess when they try and get up and you poke them again, that's pretty amazing :D
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Outside of a merciful weapon, is there any way of making a EBS do non-lethal damage to use with enforcer/sap master?There's Virtuous Creed (Mercy), although the flavor matches poorly with Enforcer in my opinion. Might just be me, though. ^_^
Sap adept/Sap master requires the weapon to be blunt, so even merciful wouldn't help this.
Enforcer alone however, would work with Thug archetype as usual. Of course not doing double damage due to the Sap Master takes a bit of the thunder out of it. - Note, if you can afford the sharp to-hit penalty you don't need anything special to make it non-lethal.
Else: Bounty Hunter 2 level dip for "Worth more alive"
Or cavalier Order Of the Blue Rose let's you do that, though if you kill the subdued enemy afterwards, it's against the edict. Though flat of the blade is still rather unfitting thematically with this weapon.
Merciful is thematically the best option.
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I am actually thinking going with halfling as a race is one of the best options and just eat the EWP: Elven Branched Spear
Snakebite Brawler 1/Scout 4/ Halfling Opportunist 5
Snake Brawler shores up our saves, makes up for the lost BAB, makes up for the lost SA, Brawler's Cunning and gives us IUS for close range.
Or go Unchained Monk 1/Scout 4/Halfling Opportunist 5
Gives the same benifits as the brawler but with a better FOBs and gives us Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat instead of SA progression.
Halflings suck as trippers due to size. - If you pay a feat for EWP or for Racial Heritage doesn't make that big a difference, except half-elves are medium sized... though I guess they do lose out on the luck bonus from the opporunist without a lenient GM.
I'll check out the unchained monk and the brawler you mentioned. Note I edited an answer to your earlier question into my post above.
At first I didn't get why Unarmed attacks would help, given our aweseome weapon, but yes, letting go of the spear and hitting with some gauntlet or armor spike isn't quite as cool as a knee to the vitals or a kick to the face.
Edit 1: Another point for monk (with sensei) is this banner of the ancient kings. Suddenly the monk dip granted an effective 5th level bardic performance! - Grab flag bearer as well and inspire your allies while poking your enemies! :)
Edit 2: I guess Brawler works well if you can't afford Int 13. And yes, better BAB than monk, though the sensei thing would balance that out as long as you have rounds left.
That does sound pretty sweet. Though CMD goes up so hard! -- Maybe an ideal build for "high level" E6 system (i.e. tons of feats)
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Halflings suck as trippers due to size. - If you pay a feat for EWP or for Racial Heritage doesn't make that big a difference, except half-elves are medium sized... though I guess they do lose out on the luck bonus from the opporunist without a lenient GM.
I'll check out the unchained monk and the brawler you mentioned. Note I edited an answer to your earlier question into my post above.
At first I didn't get why Unarmed attacks would help, given our aweseome weapon, but yes, letting go of the spear and hitting with some gauntlet or armor spike isn't quite as cool as a knee to the vitals or a kick to the face.
Another point for monk (with sensei) is this banner of the ancient kings. Suddenly the monk dip granted an effective 5th level bardic performance! - Grab flag bearer as well and inspire your allies while slashing your enemies! :)
Also with Unarmed attacks you can grab the brawler armor enchant to give you an untyped +2 attack and damage.
Halflings do suck as trippers but they make freighteningly effective DPR AOO characters and would have (Old) Monk level saves with Halfling Luck
Can't anyone wear a brawling armor? - Edit: nevermind, read that wrong. You weren't saying therefor the Brawler is better, just that unarmed strike is good.
Also I just realized how few rounds of bardic performance you'd actually get. In the text it says "his level" this means Sensei level, not Character level, right? Boosting Wisdom wouldn't be worth it unless your Dex is going to be so high, that you wouldn't benefit from most armors anyways and the extra AC from Wis to AC if without armor becomes useful. Hmpf. - However it does say at least 1, so you could still dump Wisdom and get a trait for +3 rounds or a feat for +6 rounds if you care enough to. You're only giving up flurry of blows, which I figure won't matter since you're not using monk weapons. -- You could flurry throw shurikens, but for lousy damage due to lack of strength - unless somehow you're sneak attacking with them, but even then only the first one counts, right?
So one round of bardic performance still seems better than flurry...
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That does sound pretty sweet. Though CMD goes up so hard! -- Maybe an ideal build for "high level" E6 system (i.e. tons of feats)
True, and for that reason I would not actually focus on combat manuvers but rather AOOs and debuffing.
Half-Elf: Scout Counterfit Mage (Unchained) Rogue
Ancestral Weapon: EBS
Arcane Training: Wizard (for wands of enlarge person, shield, and longarm)
1. Combat Reflexes
2 Talent. Minor Magic: Acid Splash (Range Touch for sneak attacking)
3. Arcane Strike
4t (FIXED):Signature Wand (Useful for free use of any spell list other than Wizard)
5.Riving Strike
For versatility and damage.
OR
You could also go enforcer (with the 4th level talent) and the Thug archetype instead of Counterfit Mage and be sure to grab the merciful enchant ASAP. (I would think that this build is only really reliable in a game that you could start with Merciful on your weapon.)
On a hit you would do 1d8+(1.5*Dex)+Sneak Attack+ Arcane Strike and they are at -6 AC,-4 Hit, -2 Damage, -4 Skills, -4 Saves.
The super debuffer route to lvl 10 with Double Debilition, they would be at -8 AC, -8 Hit, -2 DMG, -4 Skills, -4 Saves and can only take a move or standard action.
And all of this is applyable by doing non-lethal AOOs.
Just saw this:
"PFS Legal Tales of Twisting Steel (Act, Oratory)
Source The Harrow Handbook pg. 21 (Amazon)
This medley of tales inspires listeners to new heights of bravery and self sacrifice.
Prerequisite: Perform (act) 3 ranks or Perform (oratory) 3 ranks.
Cost: Feat or 2nd-level bard spell known.
Effect: This collection includes the stories of The Big Sky, The Rabbit Prince, and The Sickness, among others. When you complete the performance, choose one adjacent creature. You and that creature are affected as if you had cast shield other.
Use: 3 bardic performance rounds.
Action: 3 rounds."
I hadn't heard of masterpieces before, but I love the shield other spell on my Oradin. Guess this Elven Branched spear build doesn't have any better self-healing than anyone else, so why bother shielding anyone? hmpf.
Also just noticed the exact wording of the banner is " A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability." - A Sensei is not a bard. A Elven Branched Spear is not a longspear, nor a pole. I think my idea was creative, but it does not work. Why would your advice be better, just because you're holding an inspiring artifact anyways?
variant multiclassing for cavalier (order of the blue rose) could be useful for the nonlethal/sap master route.
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Half elf: Thug Scout
1. Combat Reflexes
1b. Ancestral weapon: EBS
2 t: Weapon Training
3. Weapon Versatility
4t. Combat Trick: Bludgeoner
5. Enforcer
6t. Minor Magic
7. Sap Adept
8t. Major Magic
9.Sap Master
10t. Opportunist
11. Arcane Strike
12t. Double Debilitation
13. Riving Strike
14t. Dispelling Strike
If you are going with a Combat Reflexes reach build, I recommend:
Got Your Back (Ex): Once per round as an immediate action, you may expend an attack of opportunity to attempt an aid another check to improve an ally’s attack. You and your ally must both be flanking the same opponent. This counts as an attack of opportunity.
From Cohorts and Companions - you can boost your party very well with the Helpful trait.
Half elf: Thug Scout
1. Combat Reflexes
1b. Ancestral weapon: EBS
2 t: Weapon Training
3. Weapon Versatility
4t. Combat Trick: Bludgeoner
5. Enforcer
6t. Minor Magic
7. Sap Adept
8t. Major Magic
9.Sap Master
10t. Opportunist
11. Arcane Strike
12t. Double Debilitation
13. Riving Strike
14t. Dispelling Strike
Spell-like abilities do not qualify you for Arcane Strike.
They do when they come from a class feature. Which minor magic is.
[Citation Needed]
They do when they come from a class feature. Which minor magic is.
...No.
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Well I was digging through SLAs in the FAQ and cant seem to find what ever faq it was that allowed even racial SLAs to count towards it (its been atleast a year or two that Ive been playing with that understanding). Does anyone else remember using a Tiefling/Aasimar/etc to run Arcane Strike? Or am I just going crazy?
Then I remembered something about there being a difference with racial (which I thought they recently changed) and class abilities.
Ok well that sucks and sorry to waste your time with that. Luckily, that frees up 2 feats and really only costs a bit of damage and unfortunately our save debuff.
Edit: This is what I was thinking about...
Arcane Strike with SLA
So did they change how SLAs work?
So did they change how SLAs work?
They did. Now they are exactly what they seem - abilities that are like spells but not actual spells.
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Blah bull-ogna (Bologna). That was one of the best things about minor magic for a rogue.
Edit: I wonder why they felt that needed changing... Grrrr
It made no sense, for one. Why would a Tiefling qualify as a 2nd-level arcane/divine spell caster just because he has a natural, in-born ability to generate darkness once per day? That's just a parlor trick, not actual knowledge of magic.
I don't want the power of classes to come from obscure rulings.
Better than the power of classes being nonexistent.
Better than the power of classes being nonexistent.
That's like, your opinion, dude. I much rather have a rework rather than pidgeon-holing feats and archetypes.
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Blah bull-ogna (Bologna). That was one of the best things about minor magic for a rogue.
Edit: I wonder why they felt that needed changing... Grrrr
To be fair, Unchained Minor/Major Magic are like, 1000x better than they were in their original incarnations.
Better than the power of classes being nonexistent.That's like, your opinion, dude. I much rather have a rework rather than pidgeon-holing feats and archetypes.
Except, you won't get a rework. Instead you get a useless chapter of the CRB.
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Better than the power of classes being nonexistent.That's like, your opinion, dude.
How astute of you.
I much rather have a rework rather than pidgeon-holing feats and archetypes.
I would much rather a re-work as well.
But I'll take a kludge that did exist over a re-work that will never happen.
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Shrug, I see Magus as the rework of Eldritch Knight. I like the Unchained reworks of the classic classes.
This is, of course, my opinion too.
Except, you won't get a rework. Instead you get a useless chapter of the CRB.Better than the power of classes being nonexistent.That's like, your opinion, dude. I much rather have a rework rather than pidgeon-holing feats and archetypes.
PrCs were not a working concept in this game if you ask me. Between archetypes and class options, they were phased out.
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OK back on topic please
Unchained Rogue with an Elven Branched Spear.
Does anyone have some other suggestions or tips? Do y'all feel that focusing on AOOs is the way to go? If so does it justify figuring out a way into Halfling Opportunist for Sneak Attack on AOOs? What would a solid Halfling Unchained Rogue/Halfing Opportunist look like? Or is it better to stay in Unchained Rogue for the entire carrier?
Edit: I really like the EBS for Rogues mostly because it is a highly attractive weapon since they get 1.5x Dex on it, it doesnt cost them accuracy or feats outside of EWP and combat reflexes.
I think it's possible to stay Rogue all the way, but there's little benefit past Opportunist and Imp. Evasion.
After 11th level, you might as well start hitting some Polearm Master Fighter levels perhaps? Patch up those Fort saves, get more feats, improve accuracy... the 9th level power makes a good capstone.
i do think going Halfling for the Helpful trait and the Got Your Back rogue talent makes for a great deal of extra utility too.
At 11th level you've stopped rolling fortitude saves as a Rogue because you have Twist Away and a Ring of Ferocious Action.
At 11th level you've stopped rolling fortitude saves as a Rogue because you have Twist Away and a Ring of Ferocious Action.
HEY. I love that trick, I was the first to start recommending Twist Away!
Point taken though -- what about Slayer? You can pick up more feats and a good boost to attack/damage without losing on your Reflex saves, plus you can likely Study Target as a free action thanks to your preexisting sneak attack.