In celebration of Christopher Lee life..
Lets Build Saruman i hear all your ideas i was thinking of 25 Points Bulid, Archetype of Pact Wizard.
Discuss
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I respect the attempt, but trying to build any of the Maiar or Istari by Class alone is next to impossible.
They're not humans; they'd be Outsiders, closer to Solars or even Empyreal Lords than anything else (the Valar may be Empyreal Lords, while the Maiar would be just high-HD Outsiders).
On top of that, their powers are akin to 19th level or greater full spellcasters, and Divine spellcasters at that, although they were limited in how much power they could use (while they were loyal to Eru-Illuvitar).
In Pathfinder Class terms, Gandalf as The Grey may be a Warpriest or other 6th-level Divine spellcaster, and a Cleric as The White. Saruman is almost assuredly a Cleric. Radagast is a Druid. Alatar and Pallando the Blue Wizards... not sure; they WERE sent to the far east, so.. who knows.
Why do you think Saruman would be best represented by a cleric? I'm not saying a wizard is perfect. Just curious. Totally agree on the outsider racial HD.
I don't care what anyone else says; he was just a crooked old man who took over the Shire and made all the hobbits his playthings for no other reason than spite.
Sure, he may have been an angel or some such thing, but not whilst he was visiting Middle Earth. Down here, he possessed in every way the form of a human man.
Why do you think Saruman would be best represented by a cleric? I'm not saying a wizard is perfect. Just curious. Totally agree on the outsider racial HD.
Their power comes directly from Eru-Illuvitar (Gandalf always, Saruman when he was loyal to Him) or from Melkor/Morgoth (Sauron always, Saruman after his fall).
Wizards gain their spells through study.
The magic of the Istari & Maiar were divinely granted (in Saruman and Sauron's case, demonically)
I also say that Gandalf may have well been a Warpriest because while his magic was weaker than Saruman's, he solo'd not one, but AT LEAST TWO BALROGS IN HIS "GREY" LIFETIME. As far as being a combat badass is concerned, Gandalf easily puts both Radagast and Saruman to complete shame.
After returning as The White, he got bumped up from 6/9 Spellcaster to full 9th-level spells; sure, this means he lost all those extra Combat Feats, but he wasn't allowed to do much more than assist in the War of the Ring, so he didn't really "need" all those extra ones.
I also say that Gandalf may have well been a Warpriest because while his magic was weaker than Saruman's, he solo'd not one, but AT LEAST TWO BALROGS IN HIS "GREY" LIFETIME. As far as being a combat badass is concerned, Gandalf easily puts both Radagast and Saruman to complete shame.
Two? Granting Durin's Bane, who is the other?
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The Balor in Moria was mainly falling damage tho
The Balor in Moria was mainly falling damage tho
That's not clear. Given that the fight lasted for days afterwards, I don't think Durin's Bane was even seriously hurt by the fall.
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Saruman greatest power and ability was his voice and how he could enthrall people or fascinate them. Inherent power from nowhere? Great Knowledge of lore? Magic? Someone who managed to bluff and lie to gandalf for years?
Yeah Saruman is a bard. You might even consider making him a magician bard if you want him to grab Telekinesis which he appeared to be fond of.
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Building Christopher Lee himself is difficult by the PF rules!
The man:
- Was member of the SOE (the forerunner of the British SAS) and responsible for espionage missions behind enemy lines in WW2
- Received commendations for bravery from the British, Polish, Czech and Yugoslavian governments
- Contracted and fought off malaria six times in one year
- Was a world champion fencer
- Was a great singer and actually released a heavy metal Christmas album in 2013 making him the oldest musician to ever hit the Billboard music charts.
- Sought the blessing of the King of Sweden to marry the daughter of Count Fritz von Rosen
- Spoke six languages
What an amazing man he was and life he led.
R.I.P
I think when approaching this type of adaptation you have some options.
One is to perform a more accurate representation true to the divinity of the Maiar or Istari. They're incredibly high-level outsiders with phenomenal powers.
And that's a fair approach, if a bit boring...
But if we relax ourselves from that view, we adjust ourselves around a campaign setting where the greatest mortal hero is maybe sixth level, we can spin up some interesting representations.
For Gandalf the Grey I'd go with:
Old-Aged Aasimar 'Arcane Healer' Bard 17/Paladin 3
For Saurman the White I'd go with:
Old-Aged Peri-Blooded Aasimar Wizard 13/Arcane Savant 7
Two? Granting Durin's Bane, who is the other?I also say that Gandalf may have well been a Warpriest because while his magic was weaker than Saruman's, he solo'd not one, but AT LEAST TWO BALROGS IN HIS "GREY" LIFETIME. As far as being a combat badass is concerned, Gandalf easily puts both Radagast and Saruman to complete shame.
I can't remember exactly where (I highly doubt it was the very-last parts of the Silmarillion, but it might be), but in one of the post-LOTR books there is mention of Gandalf fighting a Balrog long before Durin's Bane.
Could be remembering entirely wrong, though.
Oops, delete me please (Orfamay Quest is correct).
Um, Saruman is the correct spelling.
Gandalf and Balrog are pretty much the same kind of Maiar.
Really? Is there a list of "kinds of Maiar" somewhere around?
Gandalf and Balrog are pretty much the same kind of Maiar.Really? Is there a list of "kinds of Maiar" somewhere around?
Gandalf and the Balrogs were Fire spirit Maiar. Gandalf stayed true to Eru-Iluvitar (remained a faithful 'angel') and the Balrogs were the fire maiar who sided with Melkor/Morgoth (became fallen 'angels').
And yes if you read the books and Silmarillion you learn such things.
When Gandalf confronts the balrog at Durin's bridge in Moria he says:
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
The Secret Fire is a reference to the power of life itself in the form of the sacred flame that Ilúvatar created which made all life.
The flame of Anor is the fire of the sun itself.
The flame of Udun is the power of fire that has been corrupted by the service to Melkor (who was the real evil that Sauron was merely a leiutenant of before his fall). Melkors his first fortress was 'Udûn' which was basically hell so Gandalf is calling the Balrog a flame of hell.
@Olfamay its in the books
Let me rephrase, then.
There are no documented "kinds of Maiar" anywhere in the Legendarium except the distinction between those associated with specific Vala, and the distinction between those that were corrupted by Melkor and joined him. For example, Gandalf was originally named Olórin and worked for/with Irmo (also called Lórien), and of course was loyal to the end. Sauron was named Mairon and a craftsman of Aulë, who joined Melkor and changed his name.
Actually, that's not true; there's a one-off line in one of Tolkien's letters suggesting that Sauron was of a "far higher order" than Gandalf, but it's not clear whether that refers to their status as Maiar or simply that Gandalf himself was weaker when bound to the strictures of the Istari than he would have been if he had been free to match his power against Sauron's.
No such statement has ever been made regarding the relative rankings of the nameless Maiar that became balrogs and of Gandalf.
The statement "Gandalf and Balrog are pretty much the same kind of Maiar" has no basis.
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@Olfamay its in the booksLet me rephrase, then.
There are no documented "kinds of Maiar" anywhere in the Legendarium except the distinction between those associated with specific Vala, and the distinction between those that were corrupted by Melkor and joined him. For example, Gandalf was originally named Olórin and worked for/with Irmo (also called Lórien), and of course was loyal to the end. Sauron was named Mairon and a craftsman of Aulë, who joined Melkor and changed his name.
Actually, that's not true; there's a one-off line in one of Tolkien's letters suggesting that Sauron was of a "far higher order" than Gandalf, but it's not clear whether that refers to their status as Maiar or simply that Gandalf himself was weaker when bound to the strictures of the Istari than he would have been if he had been free to match his power against Sauron's.
No such statement has ever been made regarding the relative rankings of the nameless Maiar that became balrogs and of Gandalf.
As far as I understood it, Balrogs were the spirits of fire and *chose* that form when they flipped. The more dangerous and powerful ones are long dead by the end of the Third Age, so it's expected that the balrog Gandalf defeated is not something special as well, so they're both relatively low ranking. Saruman is portrayed as superior to Gandalf the Gray, and Saruman is also one of Aulë's.
I would take taht statement that Sauron was of a "far higher order" to mean that it does talk of the ranks among Maiar (as Sauron was, after all, the top servant of Morgoth).
IIRC, Melian was considered to be the most powerful of all the Maiar.
I think when approaching this type of adaptation you have some options.
One is to perform a more accurate representation true to the divinity of the Maiar or Istari. They're incredibly high-level outsiders with phenomenal powers.
And that's a fair approach, if a bit boring...
But if we relax ourselves from that view, we adjust ourselves around a campaign setting where the greatest mortal hero is maybe sixth level, we can spin up some interesting representations.
For Gandalf the Grey I'd go with:
Old-Aged Aasimar 'Arcane Healer' Bard 17/Paladin 3For Saurman the White I'd go with:
Old-Aged Peri-Blooded Aasimar Wizard 13/Arcane Savant 7
This is what i want thx Zonugal
This is what i want thx ZonugalI think when approaching this type of adaptation you have some options.
One is to perform a more accurate representation true to the divinity of the Maiar or Istari. They're incredibly high-level outsiders with phenomenal powers.
And that's a fair approach, if a bit boring...
But if we relax ourselves from that view, we adjust ourselves around a campaign setting where the greatest mortal hero is maybe sixth level, we can spin up some interesting representations.
For Gandalf the Grey I'd go with:
Old-Aged Aasimar 'Arcane Healer' Bard 17/Paladin 3For Saurman the White I'd go with:
Old-Aged Peri-Blooded Aasimar Wizard 13/Arcane Savant 7
No problem!
Although the more I think on it, I'd probably make every one of the wizards a bard.
Gandalf: 'Arcane Healer' Bard
Radagast: 'Animal Speaker' Bard
Saurman: 'Magician' Bard
Gandalf is a Solar with permanent Alter Self effect