RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I know many people are discussing the issues with the B scenarios and how the difficulty is a barrier to new players, and so forth.
However, since many of us posting on the boards are not new players, I was thinking we could create a strategy thread specifically for dealing with problem areas from the B set.
Near as I can tell, these are the major sticking points:(I might misremember names)
Arboreal Blight barrier
Demonic Hordes barrier(the one that summons demons to fight random characters)
Carrion Golem vs. spellcasters
Elven Entanglement scenario.
So I say look at this this way - assume you will be meeting these things. How do we build/play a starting character to endure and thrive against these challenges? What resources, especially basic cards, can be used to adapt to these things? Are there new strategies that were useless in RotR or S&S that are now worth pursuing?
For example, I've been thinking about the Carrion Golem/Enora matchup. Everyone presumes it's a handwipe, plus 3 cards off the top, so basically death or brink of death. I'm not familiar with evasion spells - I know in general my group has disdained them in previous sets. Would they work here? What about just piling a bunch of blessings on her and letting her punch at the thing? Getting a caster even up to 4d4 with their unarmed attack has a chance to win, but also importantly means the likelihood of a hand wipe goes way down, so at the very least avoids death. Would I like to save those blessings for better things? Usually yes, but Enora vs. Carrion Golem is likely a tougher fight than the villain will be anyway.
Anybody else think of ways we can change our strategy or expectations to make these challenges more doable? I sometimes wonder if actual fresh new players might not have a lot of these problems because they are untainted with expectations and strategies from previous sets that are no longer optimal.
You can only play one spell per check though, so if you encounter Carrion Golem, you can't just hammer down all your spells with Enora (or any caster).
Hi ryric,
I welcome and understand your point but IMHO you may be missing the original issue.
Non veteran-players want a simple fun heroic game. Not a strategy tactic puzzle driven one that feels like you have no choice but to use the perfect tactic or die.
So the issue is not to prove that there is / find the best tactic. It's whether it is a good idea to force to get into life or death strategy as early as B2.
IMHO.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hi ryric,
I welcome and understand your point but IMHO you may be missing the original issue.
Non veteran-players want a simple fun heroic game. Not a strategy tactic puzzle driven one that feels like you have no choice but to use the perfect tactic or die.
So the issue is not to prove that there is / find the best tactic. It's whether it is a good idea to force to get into life or death strategy as early as B2.
IMHO.
I get that, and I acknowledge that it is an issue. I'm just saying that most of us on the boards are not newbie players - and in fact our veteran status may be hurting us here more than it would a newbie.
Basically, a group of new players may not know general "principles" like "low level armor is bad" and "attack spells are better than evade spells" and "save blessings for henchmen/villains/closing" - and without that baggage from previous sets they may do better than we think.
It's not so much a puzzle as it is recognizing that our assumptions are wrong.
Tangle traps should totally allow you to close locations though ;P
Clear. I agree that for those of us who are veterans, there is a nice question about what is the best strategy. But then I think it's a lot depending of the size and members of the party, and on whether your priority is looting, defeating the scenario or minimizing risk of death. So I guess there is a lot of valid strategies.
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It would be OK if Tangle Traps didn't close the location if the Stump did. It might or might not ever show up, but it at least gives a chance.
I don't think newer players will be "unencumbered" by a set of preset ideas about the game, and won't have all the problems we do. I can see new players...
- Picking up Viper Strike, thinking it's a perfectly viable attack spell
- Choosing whatever characters they want to play - whatever looks "fun"
- Not really thinking about the strategy of having a "tank" character handing a weapon or armor off to a caster (like Enora)
- Not think or be able to import a "heal-at-will" character from a class deck or prior base set
I'm honestly not sure that "strategy" can help people win this thing, although it might help players stay alive. You have to avoid making some basic mistakes (like "don't choose Viper Strike, a dud that the designers put in the box hoping you'd be foolish enough to choose") and just hope for favorable conditions in the randomized draw.
Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?
The preponderance of Poison-immune banes. Really only Kyra can make a good case for it, since she can take advantage of the easy recharge (only a 6) early on, while still being able to use it as fodder for her power, since most Poison immunities are attached to Undead and Demon monsters.
Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?
Many demons are immune to Poison. I think Jason mentioned in another post about someone playing Wu Shen and not worrying all that much about Poison immune monsters, but in that case it's just the extra d6. I guess your mileage may vary.
Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?
About 1/3 of all monsters are Poison-immune; it's the worst element, and Poison Strike isn't better than its peers. From best to worst in WotR: Cold > Force > Acid = Fire > Mental > Electricity > Poison. Demons usually get electric and poison immunity; undead get mental and poison.
Both monster types are valid targets for Kyra's power, so she can use the Viper Strikes to let better elements be used by other characters.
Ah, you meant elemental-wise, not damage wise. My bad.
Then why is it good for a tank to give casters weapons and armors?
Oh.. Can someone confirm this if this is viable?
We always played it that when you start an encounter, everything counts as a check. Therefor: You can't play Brilliance and (for example) Frost Blase to power the other up?
We always played it that Brilliance would be cast in the encounter, therefor that being the only spell.
So, basically: Can I play multiple Brilliances (and even Glibness') in my combat encounter when I'm playing an Attack Card?
Not at the moment of the Combat check. Brilliance doesn't have a "Before You Act" stipulation that would allow you to do that. Though you could do an end run around that if the bane required an Intelligence/Knowledge check Before You Acted, for example. I think Carter is saying you could already have Brilliance primed, or you could've played Good Omen on another character's check to acquire. Basically, keep your hand small before trouble starts.
(not always an option, of course; on the first two turns of AP2 Kyra and Adowyn suffered back to back hand wipes from, you guessed it, a Carrion Golem and a Demonic Horde)
Ah, you meant elemental-wise, not damage wise. My bad.
Then why is it good for a tank to give casters weapons and armors?
Because they have more than they need, and such items tend to jam your hand or have to be disposed as "damage" (damage, discard, etc) unless your character has an alternative (eg, Harsk having the fighter power on ranged weapons.)
Because casters have a hard time obtaining them. Enora has no weapons *or* armour; Seoni and Shardra have an armour but no weapon. Armour can at least avert one disaster, while a weapon compensates for being caught without spells (not to mention, there's a blessing of Shax that has a combat check to acquire and you'd rather not throw spells at that --- and even a Corrupted blessing is still a blessing.)
It's not so critical for Seoni, as she can hot-swap an in-hand spell for a discarded spell during the check step; but still handy.
Oh.. Can someone confirm this if this is viable?
We always played it that when you start an encounter, everything counts as a check. Therefor: You can't play Brilliance and (for example) Frost Blase to power the other up?
We always played it that Brilliance would be cast in the encounter, therefor that being the only spell.So, basically: Can I play multiple Brilliances (and even Glibness') in my combat encounter when I'm playing an Attack Card?
Short answer: no. But it's more complicated than that.
Brilliance and similar spells modify a check; so the spell has to relate to an appropriate check at the moment it's being cast.
For example: you can cast Brilliance during the "when you encounter" step IF that step has an Intelligence check, or if you can play a non-spell card during the step that has an Intelligence check involved with it, or if you can play a spell during the step that isn't displayed and has Int to recharge (in which case the recharge is a different step.)
You can cast it before you act under parallel circumstances - which are more common because checks like spell resistance and Knowledge to expose weakness occur here.
You can cast it when setting up your check if it's an Int check - but you couldn't then play an Attack spell because of the one-card rule.
Basically, keep your hand small before trouble starts.
A good strategy in general, to bring this thread back to the OP's original question. :)
Similarly, Adowyn should be recharging cards with Leryn multiple times per turn if she can, first to keep her hand small and second to dredge up her weapons (since her favored card is ally, she doesn't always start with a good hand for a fight). Her scouting ability is top-notch for avoiding tricky barriers and for minimizing risk when you do face a surprise golem.
She can pass Leryn to other players to scout as well, and to help loosen up the melee martials' clogged hands.
Be careful, though, as too much caution can burn unnecessary turns.
Okay, I've run into another difficulty issue, so I'm pulling this thread out of mothballs.
I mentioned this a bit in the pace-of-play thread, but this is really more a difficulty issue. The challenge is how to defeat armies with large groups. The first note is that, in 6-player games, you have to perform every check. This means that if you are missing one of the skills (maybe your group doesn't have stealth, since only Harsk and Adowyn do, and maybe you brought Imrijka as your ranged character). Since all of these checks are DC 12, that means you're going to have to spend somewhere around 4 cards to be able to beat it, and even skills you do have will generally require more resources (A DC 16 Divine check? Even Kyra, with Hierophant and a skill point in Wisdom, is going to need an 11 to succeed on that without additional expenses (spend Mythic or use a blessing. The Divine 16 is the most extreme example, but even the DC 12 checks are only 50/50 with a d12+5, which feels like a best cast no-resource scenario).
So, you're looking at a situation where every player needs to use 2-3 cards of resources, and one character may need 4-5+. That means each Army needs 17 cards used against it on average, assuming you even have that many useful cards in your hands. Then take into account that, particularly for Scenario 3, you need to succeed against 6 of these things, when your hand only gets refreshed 5 times over the course of the entire scenario. Even if there were no other cards, that would be difficult, but you also have to get through 6 increasingly larger locations, and then fight a Villain afterwards. After attempting Scenario 2-3, I genuinely could not fathom a way to win with my group, even with good luck.
So, I have two questions coming out of this. First, in the rules, can any of you guys come up with a way to win these scenarios in 6-player, within the rules, if you don't have a character with all 6 skills being covered (we had no one with ranged, and Survival was only a secondary, non-mythic skill for 2 characters). Second, since we don't want to let the game get us frustrated, we developed the alternate rule that instead of having to win every check against an Army, you just have to have more successes than failures (So for each group size, respectively 1-1, 2-2, 3-2, 4-3, 5-3, 6-4). Does that sound like a reasonable house rule, or does it break in some way?
Isaic,
I competed AP2 with 5 players. That was tough enough and i can only imagine how tough it must be with six when you have no flexibility in skill choices. I think that the ratio of success you suggest (basically 50% + 1) would work well.
The only other pieces of advice I wanted to offer was, don't sleep on Kyra. Against army banes that have the undead and deamon trait, she can use her power to role divine for everything. That helps gives some much needed flexibility.
That's good to know! (I am actually using homebrew characters, but our cleric is very similar to Kyra, so I just used that as an example).
Thanks for your feedback. We're going to play with that house rule tonight and I'll let everyone know how it goes.
By AP 2, you should have the Banner loot item that allows +1d8 against banes (which includes barriers) with the Demon trait. In that scenario, it's probably best if everyone stacks on one location to take advantage of the banner, unless you're confident of your abilities to go without. Stacking would also give synergy with other characters (Lem, Valeros, Meliski, ...). This is what we did in these scenarios and I think it would be even more critical with 6 players.
Also, in AD 2 you have 2 power surges that can change a D4 into a D20. Seems like a good time to use it. If you're missing a skill, people can take turns at using power surges.
Of course you can always house rule stuff, but that's how I'd deal with it legitimately.
Wow. What banner?
And you mean by "power surge" the mythic Charge, right? So, let's see you need to pass a Knowledge 8 check and you have a d4, would you really spend a charge to change the d4 to a d20 and then still have a pretty high chance of failing?
By AP 2, you should have the Banner loot item that allows +1d8 against banes (which includes barriers) with the Demon trait. In that scenario, it's probably best if everyone stacks on one location to take advantage of the banner, unless you're confident of your abilities to go without. Stacking would also give synergy with other characters (Lem, Valeros, Meliski, ...). This is what we did in these scenarios and I think it would be even more critical with 6 players.
Also, in AD 2 you have 2 power surges that can change a D4 into a D20. Seems like a good time to use it. If you're missing a skill, people can take turns at using power surges.
Of course you can always house rule stuff, but that's how I'd deal with it legitimately.
A few issues. 1. You don't get the banner until 2-5, the last scenario of AD2. 2. The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know). 3. Those surges only work on your mythic stats, so they'd be worthless if you don't have the skill, or it's not the right mythic path. 4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).
Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.
Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.
Also, Adowyn can share her summon-evasion power after a power feat.
Also, Adowyn can share her summon-evasion power after a power feat.4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.
She doesn't need to to be at the same location to do that. Yet another reason Andowyn is better than the character you play ;)
Also, 'Team Mythic Marshal' (any of Balzar, Seelah, Alain and Crowe) love to hang out together to just toss tokens back and forth on every single STR/CHA roll. The synergy is just stupid.
A few issues. 1. You don't get the banner until 2-5, the last scenario of AD2. 2. The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know). 3. Those surges only work on your mythic stats, so they'd be worthless if you don't have the skill, or it's not the right mythic path. 4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).
Yes, I mean Mythic charges.
Sorry, everything I write is from an OP perspective.
1) In OP we got the banner much earlier than that. Just assumed campaign would be the same. It was extremely helpful.
2) OP scenarios fixed the problem and our armies had the demonic trait. I remember it being weird that the official henchmen didn't (especially with a horde of demons on the front of the card). Is that a mistake?
3) Right, I guess you need to get lucky with your skills.
4) We used class decks and the character synergy helped carry us through scenarios.
Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.
Alain sure doesn't!
For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)
Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.Alain sure doesn't!
For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)
That makes sense. We've only played through 2-3, so we must not have seen the Demon army yet. That makes sense, since I distinctly remember several of those in the written AP.
For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)
I'm not sure what you mean by OP didn't make any changes? The armies I'm referring to were are in the OP scenarios themselves and needed to be proxied by other cards. Originally the OP armies didn't have the demonic trait but that was corrected by Tanis. Maybe reversed again but that's how it was when I played it.
We also encountered the army that didn't have either the undead or demonic trait (in AD 2 itself). It had demons in the illustration and was called something like Demonic Army, so to us it wasn't a very intuitive to us that it didn't have the demonic trait.
WotR AD2 Armies
Undead Company (Undead)
Demonic Platoon (Demon)
Worldwound Cadre (neither)
I suspect the Cadre is supposed to represent Cultist Armies and maybe Tiefling armies from the original adventure _but I do not know_. Its artwork is indeed suggestive, as you say. I'll make sure the powers what be are happy with its traits, on general principle.
If you're referring to the Demon Patrols from SotR AD2 that summon demons to fight if you fail, they're a different beastie. I can guarantee that I gave them no traits at all when I originally dashed off the idea for them; Demon was totally added later but not before any Origins playtest.
P.S. Thanks for playtesting!
The Worldwound Cadre has some demons in it. But not enough to give them immunity to Electricity and Poison.
The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know).
There are multiple armies in the adventure, broken roughly into three different types for variety and strategy: the mostly-undead group, the mostly-demonic group, and the mostly-cultists-and-soliders group. As it turns out, the art for the Worldwound Cadre ended up more Demon-looking than we expected, and that is a little jarring. We might do something with errata on that, but it will not be a functional change -- it's intentional that there is an army with Undead, one with Demon, and one with neither.
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help.
FWIW, before Role cards are added, Kyra, Seelah, Adowyn, and Shardra all have same-location helping powers. (Once Roles are added, most of the characters have at least one, but you're not there in AD2, of course.)
Shardra, in particular, came out of development with the subtitle "Everyone wants a Shardra."
And now I see that Keith and Mike already addressed the army-traits question. That'll teach me to not read all of the thread before replying! :-)
Thanks for playing!
Enora too. She can reduce damage for characters at her location.
Lemme think quick. Just before role:
-Adowyn: Summon-evasion can support at any location.
-Alain: Nothing.
-Balazar: Nothing.
-Crowe: Nothing.
-Enora: Her elemental resistance power can support at her location.
-Harsk: As often as not, his "fighter power" facilitates supporting at other locations (bows and crossbows.)
-Imrijka: Nothing.
-Kyra: Heals someone at her location when she throws blessings at bane checks and/or uses Blast Evil.
-Seelah: Can toss a card off her deck to buff ANY check at her location.
-Seoni: Nothing.
-Shardra: Gives a reroll power at her location.
Also, keep in mind that the Wrath team has seven ladies in it, three of whom belong to classes known for support powers (cleric, paladin, and shaman.) So it shouldn't surprise too much. :)
After role:
-Adowyn: Nothing further.
-Alain: (GH) His kill-steal power counts here. :)
-Balazar: Tyro gives him monster-as-armour and a passive bonus against summoned monsters at his location.
-Crowe: The opposite of nothing, Crowe can HURT himself and friends at his location to buff his combat.
-Enora: Nothing further; both roles give some improvement to her elemental resistance.
-Harsk: DS has a support power against demons, at any location.
-Imrijka: WJ can support at other locations.
-Kyra: EG supports armour use at her location.
-Seelah: IB lets her "heal" allies at her location by using Blessing of Iomedae, plus she has "use herself as armour" at her location.
-Seoni: Still nothing.
-Shardra: Visionary spreads Knowledge to barriers, plus shares some (or all) of Shardra's subskills at her location.
And Mythic Paths:
-Hierophant and Marshal have burn powers that support allies at location (healing and getting charges, respectively.) Both of these have support 5-charge powers (resurrection and distributing charges.) Guardian also has a support 5-charge (closing a location even on someone else's attempt.)
Isaic,
The only other pieces of advice I wanted to offer was, don't sleep on Kyra. Against army banes that have the undead and deamon trait, she can use her power to role divine for everything. That helps gives some much needed flexibility.
This was life saving advice. Playing through 2-2 and just defeated the first Undead Company to appear.
Took us ten cards expended with Kyra taking on the Stealth check as you suggested!
And Imrijka just turned over another the very next turn....we're in trouble :(
Question regarding undead company. Does failing the checks impart damage? Or do we simply all take the bury a boon consequence. ( which by my reading since it's a barrier would be the case)
Oh my gosh. Does that mean those are non-combat combat checks????
It's a barrier (so you don't take Combat damage just for failing,) and the Combat checks are still Combat checks (consider the Blessing of Shax, which has Combat to acquire.)
The whole party, and the location's boon supply, will suffer the effects of failure. There's just no Combat damage involved - at least with THIS barrier.
Worldwound Cadre, which you'll fight several times in the next scenario, deals Combat damage - but that's its undefeat power, just as the bury is Undead's undefeat power.
The Siege of Drezen (WOTR 2-3) is giving me fits.
My six character group lacks the Survival skill and on this army Kyra cannot use her power to take on the lacking skill
I played it last night and played it incorrectly ( I noticed the armies lacked the demon/undead trait afterwards, I blame the artwork!)
I still lost being unable to complete the 7th location in the allotted time. Even with Kyra's ability a 12 check is by no means a sure thing. I found myself spending blessings and other abilities at a frightening clip to get through Knowledge and Charisma and Ranged 12 checks. Nor is a combat 18 routine :/
I failed against armies twice, demonic horde came out twice ....Kyra was so busy blessing and healing she rarely got her own turn.
Do the developers have any suggestions on what to do if I play this correctly????
That d4 for survival is looking fairly inadequate about now.
What's the rest of your group?
In turn order
Alain, Seoni, Imrijka, Kyra, Balazar, Seelah
Edit;
Just to get things moving I'm going to house rule there's an extra Combat 18 choice available
I believe all of these should have had 7 choices so as not to unfairly punish 6 player groupings. ( every other player level gets some sort if choice )
The horn of assured victory!!!!
Adds a d4..... LOL
my gosh the boons in this set are underwhelming
With a name like that in an earlier set you could have recharged it to take care of one of the checks!