So will you also be petitioning for the removal of all undead creation, monster summoning, animal companions, Leadership feat, and other options that are time consuming to resolve during play?
Quadruped Eidolon
Legs (2) free
Bite free
Arms (1) 2pt
Claws (2) 2pt
Grab (Claws) 2pt
Rake 2pt
Claws can only be added to Legs once. Counts as 6 natural attacks.
Bite, 4 claws, each with Grapple, if succeed up to 8 rake attacks. 8pts
Serpentine Eidolon
Bite free
Tail Slap free
Arms (2) 4pt
Claws (2) 2pt
Grab (Claws) 2pt
Constrict 2pt
Counts as 6 natural attacks.
Bite, tail slap, 4 claws, each with Grapple, if succeed up to 4 Constricts. 8pts
Sure the Quadruped has advantages (especially the possibility of Pounce), but its not far and away better. Constrict is auto damage on a successful Grapple, while Rakes could miss. Rake has a higher potential damage.
The Quadruped WILL take longer, but again, that doesn't really seem relevant. Unless you intend to remove ALL options that similarly take time to resolve.
Heck, a Fighter with GTWF, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp could have 4 attacks from BAB, 3 from TWF, plus AoO's for tripping the opponent AND for the opponent falling prone. That's the potential for 21 attack rolls in a single round. Without Haste.
the constrict build is 10 points, actually.
How is the fighter making 14 AoO? that would take a 38 dex?
Sorry, you are correct about the Constrict build point total.
I did say "potential."
But let's say Yes, he has a 36 Dex (Combat Reflexes is additional AoO's = Dex mod, you still get your normal 1 on top). Not the point.
This person can make up to 21 attacks per round. It will take forever to get through his turn. But there is no rule issue to be resolved. Only a play issue.
A Spike Chain wielder with Whirlwind Attack can make a possible 24 attacks in one round. Literally twice what the Eidolon can do.
The difference is it was the primary feature of Sound Striker that was messed up.
You would have to build the Eidolon (or Trip Fighter, or Spiked Chain Whirlwinder, or Master Summoner, or Necromancer) specifically to maximize the number of attack rolls.
Nothing made you give your Eidolon this set of abilities together. Sound Striker couldn't help it.
Heck, there's even a built in limiter. The DM can decide the number of Free actions. Just cut him off if he's taking too long. There's even a FAQ about that.
A Bipedal Eidolon can't have Rake, period.
It requires a Quadruped base form.
And would only work on creatures Small or smaller.
You could consider that another cost for these builds based on Grab, you pretty much HAVE to buy size increases for them to work.
You could start with a Bipedal Eidolon. Take Bite, Arms x2, Ability Increase (Str), Pincers, Energy Attack (Acid), and Improved Natural Armor. For feats take Martial Weapon Proficiency (kukri) and Multiweapon Fighting.
Have 2 main hand kukri attacks, 3 off hand kukri attacks, a bite, 2 claws, and 2 pincers (all natural weapons deal additional acid damage).
That's 10 attacks.
Only works for APG eidolons. Unchained eidolons count manufactured weapons and iteratives toward their max attacks.
And Unchained Eidolon is an optional rule. The standard rule is that they don't count.
But we seem to be moving the goalposts here.
FLite and I were discussing the problem of game time. I was illustrating plenty of things cost equal amounts of time.
Now we are comparing builds only possible using extra evolution points from FCB.
I don't see any reason why the "free" bite would not count toward the Max Attack limit. You can only take Grab once. So you only have two claws for Grab, or two heads for Grab, but not both.
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between all the people on the board who have said their GMs have banned APG summoners but are going to allow UC summoners, and PFS switching over entirely to UC summoners only, it is an optional rule that is pretty wide spread.
Also, an arm that is holding a weapon cannot also take natural attacks.
you would need 8 arms (4 pairs) for that build.
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It is not so much that we are moving the goal posts, as that we are exploring the field and finding out where the goal posts are.
I am not trying to convince you, I hope you are not trying to convince me, (because honestly I haven't entirely made up my mind). We are both laying out arguments so we can define the size and shape of the problem (if it is one.)
Hopefully, at the end of it all, we will get enough interest in this that the developers will see it, read the arguments one way and another, go back to the people who drafted the abilities, and at the end of the day we will get a clarification / errata (whichever seems appropriate.) The clarification may be "Yup, that's the way it is supposed to work."
In the process, we will hopefully learn a lot (for example I initially missed the bit about the free bite attack preventing taking 4 claws plus rake at 9th level. And while I knew about the grab only works on size one smaller than you (I have a constrict build) I hadn't really appreciated it in this context.)
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For the sake of intellectual honesty, I did just work out a way for a 9th level eidolon to get 5 constricts. (or three rends for that matter.)
5 constricts requires a protean (Unchained) eidolon, which gets a free grab on it's tail slap, and a second free grab attached to whatever attack type you want (in this case it's free bite.)
Give it 3 more tails + tail slaps, and constrict. (8 out of it's available 7 points, unchained eidolons have a lot fewer evo points.) 4 grabs are going to be secondary, but at 9th level, it just got multistrike, so who cares.
3 rends, take any quadruped, give it 3 tentacles + grab + rend. 7 points. Doable even in unchained. Again, secondary vs primary, but it's only -2 to the attack.
So far that is the best legal 9th level build I can come up with (best as in most attacks.)
Well, I give this to you FLite, this is probably one of the most polite conversations that has lasted this long I have had on the forum, so Cheers.
A widely adopted house rule is still a house rule.
Can a level 9 fighter compete?
Well, I only used Fighter in one example of getting a lot of attacks due to a lot of feats being needed.
But lets see...
Human Twohanded Fighter 9, Str 20 (16 base, 2 racial, 2 level)
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack
Falchion +18/+13 2d4+11 (2d4+14 on second attack)
Power Attacking +15/+10 2d4+20 (2d4+23 on second attack)
Considering your Eidolon should have about a 19 AC and 59 hp, yeah, I give the Fighter even chances. Depends on Initiative.
Of course, Fighter isn't the greatest class to compare to either. And I didn't add any magic items, even though they are an assumed part of character advancement and built into the games assumptions of power level.
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Archaeik, for the rake->grab->rake thing, I was refering to one of the (fringe) interpretations of final embrace. Final embrace (among many other things) gives you grab, but doesn't say what happens if you already have grab, or which or how many attacks it applies to.
There is a (very questionable) interpretation that says you get to pick any one natural or unarmed attack, which would then (possibly) allow you to pick up Grab(rake). There is an even more questionable interpretation that it adds grab to *all* your natural / unarmed attacks.
Thus my assertion that you would need a really, really gullible GM.
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So far that is the best legal 9th level build I can come up with (best as in most attacks.)
for the quad rend build using APG & UM you can go
bite free
3 x head 6 points
3 x bite 3 points
rend 2 points
grab (bite) 2 points13 evo points
= 4 rends on bites
no secondary attacks, but they are all pretty weak.
You are right, that is better. I just flinch at the cost of that many heads.
And as he also pointed out, that almost makes it worst. Assuming pounce (who wouldn't take pounce with this?) that would be 16 d20 rolls + 12 d6 damage rolls every round of combat.
As Abraham pointed out, there are many limitations on fully realizing all of these attacks. Hit with Claw, succeed...
Pounce is irrelevant to this discussion since eidolon Rake does not trigger on charge, only on a successful grapple.
For the sake of intellectual honesty, I did just work out a way for a 9th level eidolon to get 5 constricts. (or three rends for that matter.)
5 constricts requires a protean (Unchained) eidolon, which gets a free grab on it's tail slap, and a second free grab attached to whatever attack type you want (in this case it's free bite.)
Give it 3 more tails + tail slaps, and constrict. (8 out of it's available 7 points, unchained eidolons have a lot fewer evo points.) 4 grabs are going to be secondary, but at 9th level, it just got multistrike, so who cares.
3 rends, take any quadruped, give it 3 tentacles + grab + rend. 7 points. Doable even in unchained. Again, secondary vs primary, but it's only -2 to the attack.
So far that is the best legal 9th level build I can come up with (best as in most attacks.)
for the quad rend build using APG & UM you can go
bite free
3 x head 6 points
3 x bite 3 points
rend 2 points
grab (bite) 2 points
13 evo points= 4 rends on bites
no secondary attacks, but they are all pretty weak.
At least in the APG, Rend requires you to hit with two claw attacks. And you don't need Grab at all for it to work, its auto damage if two claws hit.
So no Rending on Tentacles or Bites.
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Found this in the Bonus Bestiary and didn't see it mentioned elsewhere:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra
natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when
it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available
to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains
two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a
grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks
is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the
rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it
can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Found this in the Bonus Bestiary and didn't see it mentioned elsewhere:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra
natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when
it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available
to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains
two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a
grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks
is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the
rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it
can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Critter rake is an entirely different ability than eidolon rake.
They really should have either made the eidolon power the same as regular rake or given it a different name when the redid the class for Unchained.
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The Unchained Eidolon abilities are all over the place when it comes to similarly named abilities:
-Grab: Normal Monster Grab includes same size and smaller. Eidolon Grab is only smaller targets.
Actually, as of the last bestiary, grab is back to smaller from what I hear. (I don't own B4) Not sure if that is a copy paste error, or another stealth errata.
To release your grapple, you end your attack.
There is no support for this, releasing a grapple is a free action, so there's no reason doing so would end your turn.
In your home game, your "interpretation" makes a fine home rule.
Possibly because it is the most recent printing of the ability, so it doesn't need to be clarified?
Possibly because it is the most recent printing of the ability, so it doesn't need to be clarified?
No because the unchained stuff is considered sandboxed. It's not part of the "normal" it's a side entry in its own space.
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To release your grapple, you end your attack.
There is no support for this, releasing a grapple is a free action, so there's no reason doing so would end your turn.
In your home game, your "interpretation" makes a fine home rule.
Hence, it is my interpretation.
I know the rules but also work to go by what would be the most logical response within the rules where not everything is exactly covered. Letting go, to me, means pushing back and setting up for the same type of action. It wouldn't end the turn, per sey, but attacking after letting go doesn't really flow well physically.
Most of the time, animals would latch on and use the grapple, squeezing air out of lungs and such.
Letting go at the beginning of the turn to go around and full attack would be something an Eidolon would do, of course, but there is no real reason for it to try and grab when it is already grappling the target. The rake should be a once in a round ability (like it is for a monster) so letting go to try it again really makes no sense to me.
Again, my interpretation. Grain of salt, that sort of thing.