Third-Party Publishing Questions

[Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad]

Hi All,

I am hoping to get some answers to these many questions I have as an aspiring 3PP. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Editing

-Suggestions for contacting someone to edit a piece?
-Better to have someone not familiar with the game? For proofreading?
-How do you sort out payment for the work?
---Flat fee? By the word length? Pay for follow-up edit passes?
---Need/better to use NDA and contract?
-Reasonable turnaround times to edit?

Art

-How do you buy art? License it? Buy it outright?
-How to determine what you want to do with it?
---Get all rights to use?
---Rights to use once?
---Re-use for future publications/projects/re-publication?

Publication Issues

-If Paizo rejects, for some reason, the use by me of the Pathfinder Compatibility License, can I still publish the work under the Open Game License? I just can't use that logo?
-How do you determine what should be Open Game Content in your work?
-Does making a work all closed content limit its sales potential?
-I understand closed content to mean that that content can't be published in another source, by another company. Is this correct? But clearly can still be used by those who purchase the work for use in their games?
---Will people not buy because of that?
---Is it only of interest to other publishers?

Thanks,
Phil

[LMPjr007]

You might want to watch my Transparency Agenda YouTube series. I answer a lot of these questions plus give you a little more context to some future questions you might have. Hope this helps.

[Marc Radle]

Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad wrote:

Hi All,

I am hoping to get some answers to these many questions I have as an aspiring 3PP. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Thanks,
Phil

There area a few threads on this already that may well contain the answers you seek!

Some Questions about Third party publishing

Publishing Questions

Do's and Don't's of 3rd Party Pathfinder Supplements?

Third party artwork

That should get you started!

[Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad]

LMPjr007 wrote:

You might want to watch my Transparency Agenda YouTube series. I answer a lot of these questions plus give you a little more context to some future questions you might have. Hope this helps.

Thanks, Louis! There's a ton of stuff there, and I've been picking my way through it. Its going to take a while.

In the meantime, I'd like to keep this thread going and see if there are any others willing to answer those questions, or just to give other insights into the process from their own experience.

Thanks to all,
Phil

[Slayer Dragonwing]

Dotting for later reference.

[Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad]

Marc Radle wrote:

Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad wrote:

Hi All,

I am hoping to get some answers to these many questions I have as an aspiring 3PP. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Thanks,
Phil

There area a few threads on this already that may well contain the answers you seek!

...
That should get you started!

Thanks, Marc! I've actually read a good bit of those threads, but I appreciate your taking the time to re-post the links. I don't believe what I found answered the specific questions I have, though. As I mentioned in my reply to Louis, I'd like to keep this thread going and hopefully generate some more discussion on the topic.

Take care,
Phil

[Vic Wertz]

Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad wrote:

If Paizo rejects, for some reason, the use by me of the Pathfinder Compatibility License, can I still publish the work under the Open Game License? I just can't use that logo?

Applications for that license are automatically accepted. So if you're able to follow the rules, you're good to go.

If for whatever reason you didn't want to use the license, you could still use the OGL, but you would not be able to use the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility Logo or state that your products are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and you would be unable to reference any of our product titles using the trademarked term Pathfinder (other than listing the ones you're using in your OGL Section 15 copyright notice).

[Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad wrote:

If Paizo rejects, for some reason, the use by me of the Pathfinder Compatibility License, can I still publish the work under the Open Game License? I just can't use that logo?

Applications for that license are automatically accepted. So if you're able to follow the rules, you're good to go.

If for whatever reason you didn't want to use the license, you could still use the OGL, but you would not be able to use the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility Logo or state that your products are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and you would be unable to reference any of our product titles using the trademarked term Pathfinder (other than listing the ones you're using in your OGL Section 15 copyright notice).

Great! Thanks, Vic. Good to know about referencing other titles, too.

Phil

[Liz Courts]

I also put together an unofficial guide here (disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer).

[Russell Morrissey]

Vic Wertz wrote:

or state that your products are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

That's not actually true, Vic. You can totally do that. You can make a thing and say it's compatible with another thing. The logo is off-limits, true, but you can say your product is compatible with another without permission (for example iPhone cases, chargers, cables, and the like). You can say your product is compatible with an iPhone, a Ford car, or the Pathfinder RPG. There's no mechanism to prevent that.

The thing you can't do - and which compatibility logos like the obsolete d20 System Trademark Logo, or the current Pathfinder RPG compatibility logo are designed to circumvent - is make people think you are the original publisher. Thus the trade dress clauses.

Of course, there's no reason to do that, because you guys have an awesome logo license which dispenses with all of that and offers additional branding benefits. So the best route is to use that logo and license. Plus, hey, why would someone not play by the rules set by the publisher, given that it costs nothing?

[137ben]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Phil Greeley/Rochandil Calenlad wrote:

If Paizo rejects, for some reason, the use by me of the Pathfinder Compatibility License, can I still publish the work under the Open Game License? I just can't use that logo?

Applications for that license are automatically accepted. So if you're able to follow the rules, you're good to go.

If for whatever reason you didn't want to use the license, you could still use the OGL, but you would not be able to use the Pathfinder RPG Compatibility Logo or state that your products are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and you would be unable to reference any of our product titles using the trademarked term Pathfinder (other than listing the ones you're using in your OGL Section 15 copyright notice).

With just the OGL, you could avoid trademarked terms by saying that it is "fully compatible with a trail-locating spin-off of the 3.5 edition of the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game"...

But it may not be as immeditly obvious to your potential customers what your product is for. In a market this small, you want to make it as easy as possible for your target audience to know they are a part of your target audience. The PF Compatibility license is fairly generous, so it's probably a good idea to use it. There are, as of this writing, more than 4,000 products using the PF Compatibility license. If you don't use it, you are putting yourself at a marketing disadvantage compared to all those others.

[Vic Wertz]

Russell Morrissey wrote:

Vic Wertz wrote:

or state that your products are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

That's not actually true, Vic. You can totally do that. You can make a thing and say it's compatible with another thing. The logo is off-limits, true, but you can say your product is compatible with another without permission (for example iPhone cases, chargers, cables, and the like). You can say your product is compatible with an iPhone, a Ford car, or the Pathfinder RPG. There's no mechanism to prevent that.

That's true in general use, but he was asking about the potential for using the OGL without the Compatibility License, and the OGL explicitly *does* include a mechanism to prevent exactly that: "You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark."

So if you wanted to say your product is compatible with the Pathfinder RPG without using the Compatibility License, you would *also* need to opt out of the OGL... and then it would be very hard to make something that's *actually compatible* without running hard into a potential legal minefield.

But, as you say, there's no need to do that.

[Russell Morrissey]

Vic Wertz wrote:

But, as you say, there's no need to do that.

Yeah, safe harbour provisions are amazing. I always believe that industrious third party support is a clear sign of a successful game, and can only benefit it. Your embracing of that, and even promotion of third party materials, is wonderful.

[RJGrady]

Editing

-Suggestions for contacting someone to edit a piece?

Get on G+.

-Better to have someone not familiar with the game? For proofreading?

Familiar. It's harder to edit stuff that is just meaningless text.

-How do you sort out payment for the work?
---Flat fee? By the word length? Pay for follow-up edit passes?
---Need/better to use NDA and contract?

This varies, but when I need editing services, I pay by the word or page.

-Reasonable turnaround times to edit?

Depends on who you hire. I would ask them about their other commitments. Money talks.

Art

-How do you buy art? License it? Buy it outright?

Yes.

-How to determine what you want to do with it?
---Get all rights to use?
---Rights to use once?
---Re-use for future publications/projects/re-publication?

I generally buy rights to use in work, and subsequent editions and anthologies. For stuff that is really specific to my IP, I buy all rights, and grant permission for the artist to use it in their portfolio and to sell individual prints.

I don't buy "one use" art unless I'm in a pinch, and if I end up revising down the road, that's the first thing I replace.

Publication Issues

-If Paizo rejects, for some reason, the use by me of the Pathfinder Compatibility License, can I still publish the work under the Open Game License? I just can't use that logo?

Yes, but don't run afoul of other clauses about indicating compatibility or using PI.

-How do you determine what should be Open Game Content in your work?

Make everything game-related open content. Everything. Declare as PI proper names, fiction, artwork.

-Does making a work all closed content limit its sales potential?

To an extent. No one knows the long term answer on this one. But definitely don't expect to make a lot of publisher friends if you close all your content.

-I understand closed content to mean that that content can't be published in another source, by another company. Is this correct? But clearly can still be used by those who purchase the work for use in their games?

Yes, closed just means you don't have permission to copy and re-use that text in a licensed work. "use" in the context of the OGL means to copy and re-use text and declare it to be open content.

---Will people not buy because of that?

Some.

---Is it only of interest to other publishers?

No. It is mostly of interest to publishers, but it is also of interest to people who support independent publishing. Keep in mind that a LOT of gatekeepers in the community, including bloggers, site owners, and reviewers, themselves have some publication credits under the OGL.

[Notsonoble]

Balor turds section 15 is insanely long now. I haven't been putting the necormancer games stuff in either (been adding pathfinder hardbacks an not noticing they referenced them). So my existing stuff is out of compliance, and I was thinking of updating the character sheet for horror adventures.

How do we fit this all on one page now? Even Liz's document is 10 pages long.

[Marc Radle]

Well, going for a small point size and narrow leading is a good start. There's nothing wrong with an OGL at 6pt. A condensed font also helps. There are plenty of reasonable typographic "tricks" that can help fit a large and unruly OGL on a single page

[Notsonoble]

I'm already at 6pt, condensed. Two column... I'll keep fussing with it.

[gamer-printer]

I page layout everything 2 column except the OGL which is at 6 point, single column, centered text, and if I have to I can squish the text horizontally or vertically to fit if I need to, but it's always the single last page of a product. The gutter between two columns of text eats up too much real estate for the OGL.

No need to fuss.

[Notsonoble]

Okay, so I've built a single column legal page for the CL that I'll just stick in each pdf in the appropriate place. I think it's correctly updated to include horror adventures.

[Little Red Goblin Games]

Editing

-Suggestions for contacting someone to edit a piece?: Yes. Some real good folks out there. Morgan Boehringer, Skip Twitchell, Ian Sisson, etc.
-Better to have someone not familiar with the game? For proofreading?: No but I use some people who are not familiar with it too.
-How do you sort out payment for the work?: Typically per page or per word. I have 1 in house editor but we have a special relationship.
---Need/better to use NDA and contract?: Eh. If it’s something that someone NEEDS not to reveal. Honestly, it’s better to just develop a relationship with that person and ask them not to. NDAs are pretty hard to enforce. Might just do a blanket one if it’s a big project with a lot on the line.
-Reasonable turnaround times to edit?: Depends on the length and availability. Like... if it’s a short project a week or two. If it’s a larger one it can take as long as you took to design it if it’s in depth feedback.

Art
-How do you buy art? License it? Buy it outright?: We pay people to do our art from scratch.