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So I am running a pathfinder module for a few of my friends.
One of them is a long time player. He doesn't have a lot of time due to his job.
Another one played in a short lived game for a few months. Relatively inexperienced and most of his gaming experience involves yelling fireball (his character was a fire themed sorcerer).
The other 2 players have never played before and are not really sure what to do character creation wise.
I am running the pathfinder module: The Dragon's Demand
The players have asked me to make them some character's to choose from as they aren't really sure about character creation methods and the more experienced player just doesn't have the time.
Now I want to create 4 characters that sum up the quote unquote "classic adventuring party", which is to say a fighter, a rogue, a wizard and a cleric.
I know that using those actual classes wouldn't be that balanced or exact, so I was wondering what people would suggest class wise to fill these roles for an effective 4 person party?
A melee type character
A skilled character
An arcane character
A divine character
They don't have to fit into these exact roles, I am just curious what peoples suggestions for PATHFINDER classes would be for a new mostly inexperienced party.
Melee: Barbarian
Skilled: Investigator
Arcane: Arcanist
Divine: Oracle
These four classes are pretty straightforward and forgiving to play, I think. The Investigator would be a melee character so the Oracle might consider going with the Wood mystery and taking up archery.
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I have run dragons demand. So from the GM side of things.
I recommend players focus on.
Long Bow: Ranger: Urban Ranger (Cover two jobs in one class.)
Long Sword and Shield: Paladin (Iomeda being the best theme wise to fit.)
Arcane Caster: Sorcerer (Only because their easy to learn. Compared to wizards.)
Divine Caster: Oracle: Battle (Combat power is critical in this module as it caps at level 6 most spell casters will just start coming in to their own at the end.)
All options that rely on any thing other then combat power. Will have problems due to the end level. They will reach the end before level 7.
It sounds like you need a pretty straightforward set of characters that won't need a huge amount of optimisation. It might actually be worth writing a quick "advancement summary" with suggested feats and spells for the ones you choose. Pathfinder has a million trap options that new or rushed players fall into. If you skim the class guides you should be able to make sensible suggestions with minimal time investment.
It does depend on the sort of campaign you're going to run. Do they need to be very optimised to beat your mega-dungeon? Do they need a dedicated trap-spotter because deadly, high DC traps are everywhere? Does everyone need some face-skills because there's a lot of diplomacy? Your call.
"Fighter" - pretty much any full BAB apart from a Fighter! Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians all have strong things to recommend them, choice really depends on the rest of the party. All three have fairly straightforward advancement too. Personally I like Rangers - less strong but more flexible.
"Thief" - Investigators, Alchemists, Bards or Inquisitors would be my go-to options. Investigators and Alchemists have skills and utility out the wazoo but are less party-buffers than Bards.
"Priest" - Clerics, Druids or Orcales are all good. Clerics have the advantage of a nice simple advancement path - they're hard to get wrong if you make good domain and stat choices. Druids and Oracles can be very powerful but require planning and system mastery to shine.
"Mage" - Wizard or Sorcerer is probably the way to go for simplicity. Arcanists and Witches are powerful but complex.
In Pathfinder at present I don't think the "classic adventuring party" is still a thing, really. There are quite a few classes/builds that can fill two roles - Warpriests can straight-up replace the "fighter" role while having decent casting. The "skilled" role can be filled by two other party members coordinating their skill choices. There's a lot of flexibility.
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I am very aware of the lack of the classic adventuring party.
I personally am a big fan of this page's theories on party dynamics.
The anvil, the hammer and the arm.
For new players I really like the 6 level casters. Lets them get some fighting in, and play with magic and most of them either have great skills or a high int, so they can all do something outside of combat situations.
Inquisitor, Bard, Magus and Alchemist would be a fun party that could deal with about anything. I'd have the Inquisitor and and Alchemist be built with some battlefield control tactics as well as their damaging abilities and I think you could have a pretty good team.
Alternatively, you could probably swap out the Alchemist for a wizard or other 9 level arcane caster for your experienced player, but I don't think you would need to to have a pretty great team.
I say:
Melee - Barbarian. Smash, smash, smash. It lives and breathes melee. Does the Strength checks, does the tanking, can focus through Rage Powers on stuff like Scent to pick up hidden enemies. (STR/CON based)
Skilled - Unchained Rogue is very fun and can be a good counterpoint to the Barbarian. High Dexterity, Finesse, sneaky, high Perception, hard to fool. (DEX/WIS based)
Arcane - Very partial towards the Sorcerer - can lead with high Charisma, handle most social encounters when the Rogue is lacking, spontaneous casting is fun, can have a ton of flavor through Bloodline, knows his magic. (CHA/INT based.)
Divine - Looking at the rest of the party, I think the one that stands out for me is Druid. Can heal on a pinch, has many useful spells, but can also be the guy who finds a fourth option - the Barb wants to smash, the Rogue wants to sneak, the Sorcerer wants to gab... the Druid can do what the rest can't envision. Through summoning, wildshape, nature skills and very good utility spells, the Druid can be the get-out-of-jail-free card.
I'd go with a classic fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric. Easy mechanics (no pools, etc), and you are going to play just a Module.
Let them learn the game, then take morre advanced classes, like synthethist summoners, magus, alchemists, warpriests, inquisitors, etc
So I am running a pathfinder module for a few of my friends. [...] I am running the pathfinder module: The Dragon's Demand.
I have ran this module before. The module is easiest when you have skill specialists involved, E.G. the Cleric with maxed Sense Motive and Perception, the Wizard rocking all of the knowledge skills, the Bard with maxed social skills, and a fighter class of some description who can breach rooms to defend the party. Trapfinding is actually pretty important in some parts of the module, but in others traps can just be soaked if there is enough healing.
Social skills are actually quite imporant, so if your party neglects them they might be in for the hard version of the module since NPCs joining the party is part of what makes the final battles surmountable.
Remind your players that specialization is key to victory in Pathfinder, but that overspecialization is just as bad as a lack thereof.
I would avoid spontaneous casters for the wizard or cleric role. A mistake in spell selection on a cleric or druid can be fixed in a day. A wizard or witch has to find places to learn his spells, but can still pick up options and leave a poor choice forgotten. A sorcerer or oracle can replace only one mis-chosen spell every four levels. Divine prepared casters are better than arcane prepared casters for the same reason. A wizard who doesn't have good spells in his spellbook can't usually fix that until he returns to civilization. A cleric can try new spells every day for free without having to RTB to buy them.
I really like Spontaneous Casters for beginners. They pick the most versatile spells without having to go through their spell lists daily to try and find what might or might not work.
Making a Sorcerer? Magic Missile + whatever.
Oracle? You already got healing, so might as well pick up Burning Disarm or stuff like that which might come in handy.
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Melee - Paladin (or ranger if they hate paladins)
The paladin has a full BAB, comes with solid saves, can self heal, and in general just seems powerful both offensively and defensively. The ranger comes with a nice set of extra options, which is good so your melee doesn't feel like just a murderstick. I'm only leaving barbarian out because it feels too one-dimensional to me.
Skill - Bard
Bards cover most of the important skills very well, have a buff role to provide, a bit of casting, and can deal some damage for assistance. It's a very well-rounded class to fill in around the rest of the party.
Arcane - Sorcerer
A straightforward arcane powerhouse. Pick some spells you know they'll need/use and they can't go wrong.
Divine - Cleric
Alot of people have called for oracle, but cleric is the way to go IMO. The cleric gives you the flexibility you removed by picking sorcerer over wizard for arcane. Give them a "standard" preparation list, and even if you pick a bad set (or they switch it to one), they can always hot-swap to a cure or get into melee.
I would go ranger, paladin, Life oracle, witch. Everyone can heal, rangers are GREAT at introducing rules to newbies.
If you don't think you need all healers, trade out the paladin for a barbarian with Power Attack.
Also, check with the players to see what kind of characters they want to play. When there is a fight, do they use a weapon or a spell?
If a weapon, is it melee or ranged? If melee, a giant axe, sword and board, rapier, unarmed strike, pair of warhammers? If ranged, giant crossbow, pistol, longbow, thrown daggers, or javelins?
If a spell, is it a blast or a summon or charm or a buff or sleep or battlefield control?
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Hammer: Switch-Hitter Slayer or Ranger w/ Trapfinder Trait
Hammer: Barbarian or Paladin
Arm: Evangelist Cleric Pick one domain: Heroism, Luck, or Travel
Anvil: Conjuration Wizard (Teleportation subschool if you can)
This group Has it all. The Cleric is just a force multiplier. All his buffs work on summoned creatures as well. The Wizard only need 5 Feats: Spell focus- Conjuration, Augment summoning, Improved Initiative, and greater Spell Focus. Anything else is just gravy and The conjuration school is the BEST at battlefield control. The hammer choices I list are not squishy all sporting good HP pools, Medium armor+, and Full BaB. Mixed with just Performance and Bless these guys will hardly ever miss especially if they are flanking. This group will be pretty hard to stop and deadly at all ranges.
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My suggestion: give them all a chance to shine in the spotlight. not just combat, but "ROLE PLAYING". Share a story and let them experience it through play.
Brute type - Brawler (APG) (Action-hero combat) like an acrobatic booty kicker.
Face type- Bard, dervish dancer (UC) (combat and healer) armed with starknives, a Varisian gypsy blade dancer.
mage type- Magus, (half elf: ancestral arms, select adlori dueling blade as an exotic weapon and weapon finesse.
Rogue type- First rogue trick, spot traps.
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Second, the party will probably have trouble playing an AP as written because there's no real healing. New players will make mistakes, need condition removal or non-HP healing, and possibly wind up quitting in disgust when they don't have it, especially if they don't have it because the GM chose their characters.
Bard has healing spells...
alternate party idea: there are roles that an adventuring part needs to fill. you might face undead. you might need tracking. you might need to deal with traps and locks. you might need to talk to people to negotiate or sway them. you may need to know some lore. you are going to need healing. Sometimes the better part of courage is the wise and judicious use of the stealth skill, so...
Survivalist type: Ranger- survivalist who has the skills to; cross rough country, navigate, track, hunt, forage, build shelters, and heal.
scout-archer type: Rogue- a trap spotter. perhaps a bow for the theme of woodland heroes.
"Civilized" adventurer type: Archaeologist bard- the party face and back up for the rogue. loses the sing-song stuff, but still has healing spells.
*Alternate: Bard-Arcane healer, you can channel positive energy and you have healing spells, and still enough skill points and class skills to be a multi-role contributor.
Monster hunter type: Inquisitor- hey, survival and tracking... as well as healing! possibly used as an alternate for the ranger!
I don't like classes with low skill points (2+ types) and limiting a player to a "box-of-band-aids" the above ideas here: ranger, rogue, bard, and inquisitor, provides a well rounded team that can work together and help each other meet a wide variety of challenges.
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Okay...
Anvil- buffer, with a side of control.
1. Elf (+dex +int, immunities, skill bonus) transmuter wizard with transmuter trait and reactionary. (*the specialization and trait give the player a +1 to a single ability score and doubles the duration of one spell like Bull's strength) 1st level improved imitative. this provides a potential third tier combat ability, by focusing on two ability scores. many people tout high constitutions, but I prefer not being HIT in the first place. grab a familiar for enhanced perception.
invest in a spring loaded wand sheath, and lots of buff wands.
Everyone wants to have "Shield"...
Str 7, dex 15, con 13, int 16, wis 14, cha 9. before adjustments.
afterward: str 7, dex 18, con 11, int 18, wis 14, cha 9.
Initiative of +10, and some quality perception.
You are not a melee combatant. your job is to hide behind your tank and pass out the wand buffs, followed by control spells where essential.
Anvil- your job is to remove hazards and overcome obstacles, and to thus protect the crew from dangers they do know about.
2. Halfling (+dex, small, skill bonus, save bonus) Rogue, (traits should bolster perception and disable device) with a high perception you will be spotting traps, secret doors, and vital clues. even though you are small, you have a combat role to create flanking and use sneak attack as much as possible. as an option you can hide with the wizard and use ranged attacks. A wand of "vanish" can be your best friend.
Arm - aid the anvil and hammer.
3. gnome bard "arcane healer". why? Channel positive energy, healing spells, party buffs, Face skills, Lore/Knowledge skills, various "utility belt" features such as "Use Magic Device" and gnome magic.
Hammer - kill stuff, no apologies.
4. Dwarf barbarian, survival skill (tracking), wisdom bonus, tough as nails, and use a two handed weapon. feats? power attack, cleave. why a two handed weapon? the +50% damage just magnifies power attack effects and strength bonus damage for every hit. when you rage...
the enemy is going to be dead, as opposed to sorry/apologetic.
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Bard has the cure line. Everyone and his dog has the cure line. The cure line doesn't matter. Anyone with UMD can replace hitpoints exactly the same way as a cleric would.
A real healer needs the restoration and remove X lines including neutralize poison with the remove line but not remove paralysis because paralysis is always temporary. Breath of Life, Heal, and some method of bringing back those dead for longer than a round are also kind of important. The bard has just two of the key healing spells and no method of bringing back the dead at all.
The inquisitor doesn't have the full suite of healing spells either. Even if you don't consider dead a condition you want to be able to remove they don't have the full suite.
1. anyone with UMD can cast any spell for a price (scrolls, wands, whatever). those without UMD can buy potions to keep their healers alive.
2. the healing SKILL, a superior healer's kit, even a few minor alchemical items can be used to deal with numerous issues.3. Sometimes you have to diagnose the issue before you can do anything about it. this is where knowledge skills can benefit the healing skill, and thus healers.
And if you think a cleric is a box of band aids you clearly don't know anything at all about clerics in 3.5 or Pathfinder.
and my answer is to violate your face through an eye socket until you have a heavy load on your back... though not so eloquently put.
let's not be rude. okies. I am sick and tired of people throwing Bonekeep optimized characters around. it's a role playing game, not a statistics course.
Maybe a disease can be cured at the end of an adventure. maybe fatigue can be cured with rest. maybe, aiding another on a healing skill check alchemical items, an other helpful boosts can help a character make a saving throw against a contracted condition. if your crew is casting raise dead like it is going out of style; that isn't my problem - whose is it?
or maybe, you do things to avoid them negative conditions in the first place.
...
I see a lot of issues with the above.
Elf wizard.
1. You didn't adjust con down for being an elf. You have 8 con. On a low fort d6HD class. This is unforgivably terrible. Especially when you have a frigging 14 for wisdom on a wizard. ???
2. Transmutation is not a good school choice unless you are aiming for a specific build. The school powers are really weaksauce - the enhancement bonus a) only applies to a physical score, and b)doesn't stack with a belt, and the telekinetic fist is a joke. Get the player to use the Teleportation School instead. It encorages the player to use conjurations, which are a wizard's bread and butter, and swift Su teleportations make the player's life a lot more forgiving.
3. Control first, then buffs, is usually the order of play.
2. Halfling Rogue
Honestly, a new player will suck badly with a 20ft move speed race along with a class that requires serious optimization to perform competently. The advice of "use ranged" is terrible. The rogue might as well not be there at that stage. Honestly, throw this out, and slot in a bard of some flavor or an investigator instead. Probably pick an archetype for that has trapfinding('nilla investigator or archaeologist bard, say) Between this and the wizard you should have skills and buffs more or less completely covered.
3. Gnome Bard.
Repeat after me. Bards are terrible healers. The best thing about a bard as a healer doesn't even involve them casting spells. It involves not having to UMD CLW wands. Being a Gnome even means that you aren't going to be good as a martial combatant. Either turn this into a thf/archer bard (probably human, because bard=feat starved), or switch to something else. If the rogue is getting swapped for a bard, make this a reach cleric. Get your players introduced to reach tactics early. Plus the players can learn that the cleric is not a living bandaid but a very capable martial combatant and a fullcaster to boot. Have the Wizard toss an Enlarge Person and the cleric gets to giggle with sheer joy.
4. Dwarf Barbarian.
Why Dwarf? It seems like a strange choice. It's viable, certainly, but specifically a Dwarf?
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Chad... why the hostility dude?
You're the one who called Clerics a box of bandaids that you were unhappy with... and now you're flipping out because people play them according to their strengths?
no. I am not flippin out. I reminded someone who needed reminding.
your statement and the other comment is what happens when you make an assumption.you have made an as of you an mption.
I here and now state that an adventuring party doesn't always have to have a cleric because;
1. when one plays smart, one saves resources.
2. I can't tell you the number of adventures that I have played that encouraged and rewarded creative solutions, or social interaction skill use.
2. throwing magic at everything can be a solution; but there are other ways of doing things.
why cast spells to reveal an invisible foe when a pouch of flour can do the same? think about it.
It actually doesn't do the same; flour only allows you to "keep track of its position", not the full reveal glitterdust and invisibility purge provide. So you still have to deal with concealment.
If you want the game to be ridiculous with the amount of healing your party can divvy out, then go with:
Paladin (Hospitaler)
Bard (Detective)
Cleric ()
Wizard (Spell-Sage)
The Dragon's Demand ends around level 7.
The Paladin (Hospitaler) will be able to heal, he can also go into greater mercy and ultimate mercy. Ultimate Mercy gives the Paladin the ability to cast Raise Dead for free to some extent. One negative level that goes away is less of a problem than someone being dead.
He would only need to take Greater Mercy at level 3, Ultimate Mercy at level 5 and Extra Lay on Hands at level 7. This boils down to a single raise dead each day for more or less all of his lay on hands that day. He needs to have around 20 charisma, however, 16 if racial +2 and Charisma headband will get him to where he needs to be for it to work.
Bard (Detective) will be able to use trapfinding. If he turns himself into a trap finding monster (max ranks on Perception) then he can be a trap-finder. The nice part here is that he can heal.
Clerics can be healing monsters. They can also go toe to toe with the best of them if the cleric goes crusader, but that isn't necessary with a Paladin in the party.
Wizard (Spell-sage) wizards are extremely useful because of the abilities they bring to the table. A Blood Money Restoration removes a single negative level for a little strength damage. This, in conjunction with the Paladin's Ultimate Mercy, and the fact that strength damage can be healed by a cleric's 2nd level spell, death ceases to be of any major consequence.
If someone who is not the Paladin dies, the Paladin can raise dead the person after the battle or retreat. The Wizard, even if he is just raised, can remove the negative levels, then the cleric can remove the strength damage if it is particularly important.
Party synergy. ;)
I personally like the following:
2h weapon fighter (I usually go w/a greataxe); feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Human bonus if applicable - Furious Focus). This guy's sole goal is getting to the front line and dealing damage.
Cleric with Earth and Protection domains; feat: Quickdraw. This guy is the melee filler (I usually use a dwarf). He golf bags weapons, wears the heaviest armor he can and carries a quickdraw shield so he can go 1h/2h at a moment's notice
Ranger (any kind) for the skills guy; for the module pick kobolds as favored enemy; feat Weapon Focus (ranged weapon) - I usually go with a small but fast race for this but if you go human maybe give them another ranged weapon feat like Point Blank or Precise
Wizard (universalist or evoker) with a familiar (good utility; goof for the experienced players); Feat: Arcane Strike; spells: O level - Acid Splash, Resistance, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic; 1st level - Sleep, Magic Missile. This guy just hangs in the back, fires off Acid Splash for avg 4 damage per round and tries not to get killed; give him lots of scrolls and 3 extra 1st level spells not currently memorized: Mage Armor, Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist (all three in his scrolls)
Maybe a disease can be cured at the end of an adventure.
sure. Problem is that you hold the condition until end of adventure, and being blind, or feebleminded, or having negative levels isnt fun. Hp doesnt matter, CLW wands can be used almost by anyone, and a couple of wasted slots in cure spells for your bard wont change anything.
Remove disease, restoration, remove blindness, remove curse, and similar spells are the real deal. Hp are trivial
Not gonna go too wrong with:
Human Fighter/paladin
Human Slayer/Unchained Rogue
Elf Exploiter Wizard
Dwarf Cleric
For your experienced player, hand him the exploiter. The guy with experience should run the cleric. Your two newbies should learn the d20 system easier by playing melee classes.
9 level arcane casters are pretty boring when the story ends at level 6. Idd reccomend a 6 level arcane class or leaving the role entirely.
Example party:
Alchemist. Perhaps vivisectionist. Built for multi role fufilling (bombs range, power attack melee, lots of skills and fun magic.)
Cleric. Any archetype kind with a domain focus that can routinely cast domain spells, then pick any domain with blasts or mind affecting, for that magiccy feeling. When magic wont do he can wade into melee. Also skills.
Ranger. Switch hitting. Point blank & power attack, classics.
Unchained rouge or investigator. Extra bit of skills and nifty sneaky fighting.
All of the above fulfill an archetypical role yet all of them can deliver solidly in and out of conbat.
OP post what you are going with!
I might throw in a wilderness-themed party:
barbarian: face smasher
guide ranger: skill guy, built as archer or switch hitter (add in trapper arch too if you feel the need)
druid w/ domain: divine caster
skald: knowledges/face/umd
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Classic party, Modules aren't very hard but well for fresh new players:
-Unchained Barbarian: every new players that I have ever seen, want to be a barbarian. Give him a greatsword and pick power attack, done. The bonuses are simpler with the Unchained barbarian, you can have him play the regular barbarian if you want.
-Unchained Rogue: they most likely would recognize the type due to video games and of course Bilbo Baggins. Plus someone needs to get those traps.
-Sorcerer with the arcane bloodline: It is simple and efficient, not much else to say. Pick spells, learn the basic about magic, get good and efficient powers.
-Cleric are frankly newbie friendly, spoiler, make him a cleric of Irori for some benefits in game later in the module.
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My suggestion:
Melee: Monk. They get a bunch of benefits that grow with levels. They are also great at maneuvers but its not a core mechanic they have to follow if they don't want to.
Ranged: Bard. Particularly the eratad sound striker. Provides buffs to the party as well with some backup skills.
Skills: Alchemist or Investigator. Either is great. Investigator more so but alchemist have a bit more versatility other than "skills is what I do."
Arcane: The Shaman. I know its not truely an arcane class. They cast divinely but with the lore spirit, they add wizard spells to their spell list. Best if lore is their wandering. As a human, you can also add cleric spells to their list as well.
I think the arcanist might be really good for newbie spellcasters. They can spontaneously cast like sorcerers, which is easy, and they can change their spells each day like a wizard, so they're not locked into their spell choices.