I think that getting to know what you are writing about will help, but as mentioned, you won't be using the same terminology. You will get a "Feel" for what the swords are like.
I agree. I hope that my earlier post wasn't read as "don't bother to learn HEMA," because it wasn't intended that way. In fact, if you read "between the lines" of Dumas' second fight scene, I think it's obvious that M. Dumas actually knows a bit about fencing, since what he describes is actually a realistic fight, a realistic initial error on Bernajoux's part, and a realistic description of how two highly skilled fencers behave.
Unsurprisingly, Dumas was himself a good fencer (having studied under Augustin Grisier) and even wrote a novel (The Fencing Master, 1840) in collaboration with Grisier.
My point was simply that the phrase "croisé from octave" does not appear in any of Dumas' work, and there's no reason it should. It's bad enough trying to figure out the French money system (how many sou make a pistole again?)
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For everyone's info, 'The Fencing Master' does not have very much fencing in it at all, as I've found out to my cost.
Seven knuts to a sickle and three sickles to a pistol?
Good to know. And, no, I wasn't planning on using actual terms (unless for some queer reason it actually proved to crop up in character conversation), lol. I'm halfway decent as it as is, I've studied a couple martial arts even though I always seemed to run out of money to pay for classes, and read some old manuals on combat (limited to what my library has :( ). Something just doesn't feel "right" about it to me, even though I've been told I had a knack for it. I'm just thinkin' practicing some HEMA might give me that whatever it is I think I'm lacking.
That said, I think I'll be avoiding ARMA... It just sounds like too much like jocks have found something to be elitist about. I've seen this attitude in MMA and other martial arts as well, but it's not pervasive and most masters/teachers I've met tend to snort derisively or shake their heads at it.
Now I just need to figure out which one I want to look at. The one centered around Spanish sword play, with teachers who "come from a living tradition of classical fencing descended from the Military Masters Schools of mid to late 19th century Italy."; "Meyer Frei Fechter" which seems to focus more on the "knightly" aspects, and centers around German combat arts.
.... Mrh. Too hard to decide which one. Nag dabbit.
If it helps, I will say German Longsword is really freaking fun (So far).
And yes, I have heard.... not good things.. about ARMA.
If it helps, I will say German Longsword is really freaking fun (So far).
And yes, I have heard.... not good things.. about ARMA.
If I can, I'd do both Sacramento Sword School and Sacramento Frei Fechter. But I don't think I'll have the time/money for it.
As for ARMA... I haven't heard squat about 'em, but from just reading their mission statement... I'm seriously reminded of this (Foamy the Squirrel Rant, potentially NSFW), second example/other side of the coin.
(Edited for scheduling mistake :p)
I'm in NAAMA, a similar organization here in NZ (though we also have HEMA, SCA, and HMB here). Learning (and teaching) western martial arts has definitely affected my game design (hopefully for the better).
Another vote for Meyer here, although the Spanish thing sounds interesting. Might be a bit more duel-y, so it depends on your individual tastes.
Well , we did scheitlhau (?) tonight. Tricky to get quite right...
Also, there's now someone who I can play at sword & buckler with. Yippee!
We have two people doing sword and buckler work too. I'm looking forward to giving it a try, but I have a lot on my plate already.
A bit of an update:
I have had a busy two weeks of HEMA, we attended a ren-fair over the weekend and I spent two day's fencing/drilling (in the sun and humidity). It wiped me out, but was totally worth it. I can't stress enough how awesome the people at the club are.
On the plus side, I actually won a Rapier match finally lol. It's funny, when I use a Rapier, my footwork is good (ok, maybe good is too strong of a word, lets say its "Not Terrible"), but when I switch to Longsword it's like my feet are all "Durp! Two handed weapon?! Go both ways!".. Yea, it's ugly (which makes no sense, as both archery and my martial arts used a left foot forward stance! Gah! Why do you vex me feet!).
Highlights from the weekend: Winning my first "scored" match, 3v1 Fight using baton (so much fun) and getting punched in the face (mask) with a basket hilt. The crowds reaction of "Can they do that?!" was awesome.
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So im a hema practitioner and occasional instructor, as well as a Pathfinder player. Ive been doing hema 5 years, and I know many of the clubs and instructors in the US HEMA community. Ive never heard of a hema club that wouldnt love hema to have fantasy authors come out and observe, or even better take a class. As far as your perceptions of what HEMA folks think about larpers, SCAdians, and the ARMA cult: Im a member of an organization called The Hema Alliance. THey are not a club or governing body, but rather a blanket organization that strives to bring hema clubs together, and also to promote HEMA and to spread (not withold) information. They were formed by a lot of former members of ARMA, becuase they didnt like the way arma was exclusionary, didnt allow its members to study other maritial arts, and kept its information private.
IF you want to see the manuals we study from (what ARMA kept private for members only), check out the Wiktenauer. It contains scans of hundreds of historical fighting manuals including German, Italian, french, Spanish, Portuguese, English. The Wiktenauer is maintained by the HEMA alliance.
HEMA clubs as a whole aren't disdainful of larpers, or SCA (many people do more than one- I also do historical reenacting), but we try to distinguish ourselves from them because we consider ourselves a serious martial art, as well as a serious academic endeavor, and strive to be recognized as such. But many of us also play RPG's. I'd even stretch that and say most of us do ;)
Artemis, you are in a good spot. Sacramento Swordplay school has some great folks- the instructor Puck is a nice guy, and a hell of a fencer. Also Kevin Murakoshi is an instructor there, and fights well with rapier, sabre, and longsword even though they are primarily a spanish rapier school (Kevin just knocked me out of the longsword elims at a HEMA tournament a few months ago).
As far as the Meyer Freifechter, make no mistake, they are a serious HEMA group as exists. I dont know anyone from the Sacramento Freifechter, but I know the guys in the Atlanta Freifechter (its all one sort of big club) and they are great guys and fighters. If you want german longsword, as well as dussack and sword & buckler, check them out. Take the Red pill, Neo...
as far as ARMA goes...trust your instincts ;)
And if you are ever in Southern California, look up Kron Martial arts. That's where I study.
Dexion, are you studying with Ken Mondschien? If so, he's a good instructor. You are in a good place.
So, needing to get back into shape, I decided to try something new (because somehow between backpacking and archery I still gained weight, thanks "Getting Old")...
So, considering I already compete in USPSA Pistol match's and Archery matches I figured "How Hard could sword fighting be?"
Answer: My everything hurts. (In a good way)
So, I'm learning Rapier and Longsword (Which is actually mostly two handed, who knew?) at the local club (Btw: I lived in this city 7 years, and had a club that teach's the use of German Longsword 4 blocks from me this whole time? What?).
For those that don't know, HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.
So, anyone else ever tried HEMA? So far it's a great workout and a lot of fun!
No, but I've done fencing for around 20 years. Also did Kendo...but totally wrong part of the world.
I suppose that doesn't really count though...not really the same thing in some ways.
I've read a few of the old sword training manuals from the old military books, if HEMA (as it sounds like someone indicated above) is using those that can only mean good things for their authenticity and what they are doing in my opinion.
My short reach and small size (5'4" and 130 lbs.) means I am pretty much at a serious disadvantage vs. most folk when I spar. Seems there is a reason why I am much better at archery, dagger, quarter staff and spear than the sword. I own a good number of battle ready blades from roman gladius to Irish hand and a half (bastard) sword, but they are not my go to weapons. I really should get into some classes to put those fine blades to better use.
Also, I do love hitting pumpkins with a flanged mace at Halloween, very cathartic. :)
Me and my wife are interested in HEMA....how ever there seems to be only one group in our area...and they seem off...show up for first Friday's however when you try to find information about them online....the only site that has any information about them hasn't been updated in a couple...years...almost like they don't want people joining.
I went to a different class on Monday (I'll still go to my old one, but I want to train more than once a week). We were doing German polearm stuff; I'm not super into it or very good at it, but I haven't done it previously, so it was interesting, at least.
My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.
Do you guys ever practice glove slapping.
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It comes naturally - there's no need to rehearse something like that.
Touche!
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I went to a different class on Monday (I'll still go to my old one, but I want to train more than once a week). We were doing German polearm stuff; I'm not super into it or very good at it, but I haven't done it previously, so it was interesting, at least.
My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.
What city are you located in? I have a pretty good knowledge of many hema groups around the US (especially CA, but I know and have trained with folks from all over.)
Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )
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My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.
I LOVE sidesword and buckler. What group are you training with? Marozzo is the bomb. I had a chance to train with Ilkka Hartikainen a few years ago with sidesword, and it was awesome. Look up Marozzo.org of you are unfamiliar with him. Sidesword is my absolute favorite. and the reason i wish game companies would give up their stupid sacred cows like game long swords being real world arming swords and bucklers strapping on the arm. Gygax sometimes got it wrong, and its time we owned up to that and moved on.
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Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )
The floyds used to be in Florida, but they just relocated to Colorado. Theres a guy in Sarasota named Derrek Connnely who does some good sword stuff, but Im not sure if he is looking to teach. Theres a very good teacher in Orlando named Scott Brown, his club is called Ochs America. ITs a drive, but in hema we almost always have to drive to train. There are no corner hema mcdojos like there are MMA gyms and Tae Kwon Do schools. Also Chad Light runs the elizabethan era reenacting in St Augustine, and fences the Spanish style (Destreza, which is my chosen rapier style) but I dont know if he teaches.
(not yet at least, but that IS our ultimate goal of HEMA world domination ;)
What is the school you found near you? I can at probably get info about them.
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So, needing to get back into shape, I decided to try something new (because somehow between backpacking and archery I still gained weight, thanks "Getting Old")...
So, considering I already compete in USPSA Pistol match's and Archery matches I figured "How Hard could sword fighting be?"
Answer: My everything hurts. (In a good way)
So, I'm learning Rapier and Longsword (Which is actually mostly two handed, who knew?) at the local club (Btw: I lived in this city 7 years, and had a club that teach's the use of German Longsword 4 blocks from me this whole time? What?).
For those that don't know, HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.
So, anyone else ever tried HEMA? So far it's a great workout and a lot of fun!
No, but I've done fencing for around 20 years. Also did Kendo...but totally wrong part of the world.
I suppose that doesn't really count though...not really the same thing in some ways.
I've read a few of the old sword training manuals from the old military books, if HEMA (as it sounds like someone indicated above) is using those that can only mean good things for their authenticity and what they are doing in my opinion.
That is what we are going for! Thank you for getting it. So many people dont, and hence comes the confusion with LARPers and the like, and the then the (wrongly placed) resentment due to that confusion. And that way lies madness....
(but seriously, its not good for ANY of the groups).
Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )The floyds used to be in Florida, but they just relocated to Colorado. Theres a guy in Sarasota named Derrek Connnely who does some good sword stuff, but Im not sure if he is looking to teach. Theres a very good teacher in Orlando named Scott Brown, his club is called Ochs America. ITs a drive, but in hema we almost always have to drive to train. There are no corner hema mcdojos like there are MMA gyms and Tae Kwon Do schools. Also Chad Light runs the elizabethan era reenacting in St Augustine, and fences the Spanish style (Destreza, which is my chosen rapier style) but I dont know if he teaches.
(not yet at least, but that IS our ultimate goal of HEMA world domination ;)
What is the school you found near you? I can at probably get info about them.
Panama City Western Martial Arts
Destreza sounds interesting I'll have to look that up.
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Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )The floyds used to be in Florida, but they just relocated to Colorado. Theres a guy in Sarasota named Derrek Connnely who does some good sword stuff, but Im not sure if he is looking to teach. Theres a very good teacher in Orlando named Scott Brown, his club is called Ochs America. ITs a drive, but in hema we almost always have to drive to train. There are no corner hema mcdojos like there are MMA gyms and Tae Kwon Do schools. Also Chad Light runs the elizabethan era reenacting in St Augustine, and fences the Spanish style (Destreza, which is my chosen rapier style) but I dont know if he teaches.
(not yet at least, but that IS our ultimate goal of HEMA world domination ;)
What is the school you found near you? I can at probably get info about them.
Panama City Western Martial Arts
Destreza sounds interesting I'll have to look that up.
I saw the panama city sparring video on their facebook. It might not be a bad place to start, but they (and im not mudslinging here- my hats off to any group out there trying to work this out on their own) seem slightly rudimentary still, at least based on that video. I think you would get more out of it if you made the drive out to Orlando and train with Scott Brown. Google Ochs America. Maybe a once a week thing, and practice at home during the week?
I LOVE sidesword and buckler. What group are you training with? Marozzo is the bomb. I had a chance to train with Ilkka Hartikainen a few years ago with sidesword, and it was awesome. Look up Marozzo.org of you are unfamiliar with him. Sidesword is my absolute favorite. and the reason i wish game companies would give up their stupid sacred cows like game long swords being real world arming swords and bucklers strapping on the arm. Gygax sometimes got it wrong, and its time we owned up to that and moved on.
My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.
Thanks for the tip on Marozzo.org - hadn't come across it before :) I've got extracts from the Opera Nova in a book called 'Techniques of Old Swordsmanship' (I think - I haven't got it by me) by Alfred Hutton, but don't have the whole thing. Somebody's promised to lend me Manciolino, though, so that should be interesting once I have it.
I just train with a couple of groups in Yorkshire, UK; most of the other chaps who are interested in sword & buckler work off I33, but there's nothing wrong with that.
One of my single greatest regrets is learning to fence, because I can't appreciate movie sword fights anymore. Be sure you know what you're getting yourself into. You might never appreciate movies with sword fights again if you learn how to do it properly.
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One of my single greatest regrets is learning to fence, because I can't appreciate movie sword fights anymore. Be sure you know what you're getting yourself into. You might never appreciate movies with sword fights again if you learn how to do it properly.
On the contrary, it makes you appreciate the well done fights even more. The Longsword fights in kingdom of heaven are great, the fights in Rob Roy are excellent, and my favorite are the ones in last of the mohicans.
Troy had some great stuff too.The problem i have developed is hating the crappy unrealistic swords most fantasy miniature sculptors make. I get that large proportioned swords look better on a miniature, but for the love of god i wish they would learn what a pommel is. Or that crossguards that point back towards your hand might look "dungeonpunk" cool to the "keep your reality out of my fantasy" types, but really they just make the sword look ridiculous and unrealistic.
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About time this thread got resurrected.
As well as quarterstaff, rapier, sabre and longsword, people at Wednesday HEMA are considering starting doing montante/spadone as well. I've been taking an interest in this for a while, as there's often a bit at the end of whatever Bolognese-type manual you happen to be reading at the end which I've hitherto had to skip past, but drilling with one between classes would be a challenge, unless you did it outside...
Blackfencer do one for around 100 Euros, which isn't too excessive.
I fenced in college, but my foil was actually more like an epee (which a fellow fencer told me. I took him at his word), which kinda suited me as I was a larger person than most of the other folks in the class. It wouldn't bend on a successful strike. I could actually knock people back with it it was was so stout.
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I'll see if I can link to the picture of one of my friends stabbing someone in the mask with his longsword, causing the blade of his sword to bend nearly double (his opponent was OK). That was a pretty impressive feat of strength, but a) he's a big lad, and b) they're designed to flex...
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I'll see if I can link to the picture of one of my friends stabbing someone in the mask with his longsword, causing the blade of his sword to bend nearly double (his opponent was OK). That was a pretty impressive feat of strength, but a) he's a big lad, and b) they're designed to flex...
It's a public group, so it *should* work... ' Nearly double may have been putting it a bit strongly, too.
How dare you exaggerate! And on the internet of all places!!
Spent a good deal of time today messing around with dhaal (Indian buckler) and tulwar; given the nature of the tulwar's hilt and the way it restricts your wrist, you have to get in very close to be able to do anything dangerous and it doesn't really work in the same way as 'regular' sword & buckler stuff, whether Bolognese or I33.
I've never done gatka, so I don't really know how to use them properly, I must admit. There's a big Sikh community in Bradford, though, so I'll keep an eye out in case anyone does start doing classes.
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What we discovered during yesterday's test-cutting/mini tournament:
1) Tomahawk and Bowie doesn't work against anything except tomahawk and Bowie (then again, I don't believe it was ever designed for a standard one-on-one duel)
2) Old swords bend.
3) Tatami mats can fly the length of three back gardens or more, if you hit them the wrong right way.
4) They all laughed at the s@%$ty chromed '70s wallhanger tulwar, but my life, can it cut when you put an edge on it.
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Following last weekend's smashing and great sword and dagger seminar, I decided to go up against somebody with a montante/spadone/zweihander/greatsword yesterday to test out my supposed new-found skills. It was pretty difficult (and nigh-on impossible to parry), despite the fact that its wielder had only got it a couple of weeks before.
The only thing that really worked was stepping in and binding it at the end of a cut with both weapons, then cutting/thrusting, but that required very precise timing...
I believe that is one of the things the longbow deals with nicely...
From a distance and not within reach of 3.5 feet of steel! >.<
Fair...who fights fair?! ;P
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Yeah... The general answer to that sort of problem is either projectile weapons or polearms...
I suppose the "get really close" tactic could also work sometimes, depends on if pommel and quillons strikes are being allowed, big blades like that are less effective at extreme close rage, or so it seems to me anyway (when civilized sparring is happening anyway, life and death combat is something different, results may not apply).
Again dagger or longbow guy here...I subscribe to the Indy vs. crazy sword guy school mostly ;)
We've fixed the spears, so those came out tonight. Very hard to fight against with anything bar another spear, although sword and shield worked alright *if* you could get past the point...