I really like the idea of the Daring Champion class, but I'm torn on how best to build one.
A lot of people seem to recommend Order of the Flame, but I feel like the feat "Chain Challenge" can have a similar effect without destroying AC.
I also don't see too much mention of the Order of the Star, which has scaling Lay on Hands and some other neat abilities.
So here is a rough draft of an Enlightened Paladin 2 / Daring Champion X build. Any suggestions for improvement or complete changes would be appreciated.
(Enlightened Paladin is the Paladin of Irori, but I prefer the non-god specific name)
Daring Champion 1 (Weapon Focus (Rapier), Fencing Grace)
Enlightened Paladin 1 (Improved Unarmed Strike)
Enlightened Paladin 2 (Snake Style)
Daring Champion 2 (Combat Reflexes)
Daring Champion 5 (Chain Challenge)
Daring Champion 6 (Snake Sidewind)
Daring Champion 7 (Snake Fang)
Daring Champion 9 (Improved Critical)
The idea would be to have high dex/cha, and being able to dish out multiple attacks of opportunity with Snake Style (As a piercing weapon for Precise Strike damage, eventually getting an Agile Amulet of mighty fists) while being able to fight primarily with a rapier.
I guess I could try to fit power attack in there somewhere. I feel like the extra damage would still help even if I'm not two handing.
The order would be Order of the Star. From what I understand, half of your Cavalier levels will be added to your paladin levels for Lay on Hands, giving you a very reliable heal, especially with the Bracers of the Merciful Knight.
It should cap at 9 (1/2 Cavalier) + 2 (Paladin) + 4 (Bracers) = Lay on Hands of a level 15 Paladin (7d6).
Feedback greatly appreciated!
I really like the idea of the Daring Champion class, but I'm torn on how best to build one.
A lot of people seem to recommend Order of the Flame, but I feel like the feat "Chain Challenge" can have a similar effect without destroying AC.
I also don't see too much mention of the Order of the Star, which has scaling Lay on Hands and some other neat abilities.
So here is a rough draft of an Enlightened Paladin 2 / Daring Champion X build. Any suggestions for improvement or complete changes would be appreciated.
(Enlightened Paladin is the Paladin of Irori, but I prefer the non-god specific name)
Daring Champion 1 (Weapon Focus (Rapier), Fencing Grace)
Enlightened Paladin 1 (Improved Unarmed Strike)
Enlightened Paladin 2 (Snake Style)
Daring Champion 2 (Combat Reflexes)
Daring Champion 5 (Chain Challenge)
Daring Champion 6 (Snake Sidewind)
Daring Champion 7 (Snake Fang)
Daring Champion 9 (Improved Critical)The idea would be to have high dex/cha, and being able to dish out multiple attacks of opportunity with Snake Style (As a piercing weapon for Precise Strike damage, eventually getting an Agile Amulet of mighty fists) while being able to fight primarily with a rapier.
I guess I could try to fit power attack in there somewhere. I feel like the extra damage would still help even if I'm not two handing.
The order would be Order of the Star. From what I understand, half of your Cavalier levels will be added to your paladin levels for Lay on Hands, giving you a very reliable heal, especially with the Bracers of the Merciful Knight.
It should cap at 9 (1/2 Cavalier) + 2 (Paladin) + 4 (Bracers) = Lay on Hands of a level 15 Paladin (7d6).
Feedback greatly appreciated!
1 problem. Chain challenge requires level 7 so you cant get that at 5.
If you want to use Snake style a fun combo is Monk with master of many styles. First 2 levels gives you 2 bonus feats and if you already have the first feat you can get the next 2 in the chain prerequisite free.
So Crane + Snake Style = high defense with tons of extra attacks from snake style and potentially crane style and master of many styles obviously lets you mix both simultaneously.
Obviously Enlightened paladin is nice but unless you're ignoring that part about the Charisma to AC its limited by class level meaning 2 levels in it is weak if you're doing the unarmored monk style making regular monk a bit nicer as its just full Wisdom to AC. Ignore this obviously if you want to do armor.
Huge drawback of snake style is you can only do unarmed strikes which is a bit weaker which you can get small boosts from agile amulet as well as challenge. I'd also note you'll be missing the +1 from weapon focus and your enhancement bonuses will likely lag behind your rapier making the to-hit a bit iffy.
But I'm not 100% if you can benefit from precise strike on your unarmed strike if you're using a rapier in your main hand as i think it would be considered your "other hand" when attacking which would violate the requirements of it. But i could be wrong on this.
Otherwise this isn't a bad idea just because Challenge + Precise Strike + small bits from your snake style AoO will be some nice damage.
The lay on hands probably won't be as important as long as you keep your defenses high (monk allowing you some good AC/Touch) because you'll want to keep them missing at every opportunity to get more AoO from snake style, hence why i like crane style alongside snake style as it ends up with -1 attack for +4 dodge bonus (with the 5 ranks in acrobatics mixed with crane style and crane riposte).
Power attack can be good as well so you can stack the damage even more (downside is your unarmed strikes will suffer slightly more than already on their to-hit as well but they'll also benefit from the damage boost).
Now if you want to spend alot of money you can get a "Blade of the Sword-Saint" and do Katana rather than rapier (go human or tengu to get profficiency). This allows you to treat the weapon as if you're unarmed and treats the hand as "free" for the purposes of various other feats, specifically if its treated as unarmed you might be able to talk your DM to letting you do your AoO with it as its "considered unarmed" and is a "free hand" But i could see a DM arguing that its not specifically listing itself as an "Unarmed Strike".
2 downsides if you don't like the monk suggestion above that's not an option as the unarmed bits are monk only and its 75k (37k crafted but you HAVE to be a monk to craft it so good luck with that) so you probably won't see it for awhile.
Nice catch on chain challenge, I derped.
Good suggestions too!
I really like having lay on hands, those swift action heals are one of the main reasons I love paladins.
I'm relatively sure precise strike will work with snake style attacks. I might be wrong but I think the wording is meant to eliminate two weapon fighting attacks, and all I'm doing is taking an AoO with an unarmed strike. Which isn't necessarily a "weapon in my other hand ".
Enlightened paladin is more to get improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat for snake style. I don't really lose anything for that trade. The saves and lay on hands are key with that dip.
I want to avoid more multiclassing as much as I can to make precise strike and challenge stay relevant, so I think I'll skip the master of many styles.
I didn't consider the blade of the sword saint. Sounds neat, but I think rapiers are way cooler than katanas.
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Nice catch on chain challenge, I derped.
Good suggestions too!I really like having lay on hands, those swift action heals are one of the main reasons I love paladins.
I'm relatively sure precise strike will work with snake style attacks. I might be wrong but I think the wording is meant to eliminate two weapon fighting attacks, and all I'm doing is taking an AoO with an unarmed strike. Which isn't necessarily a "weapon in my other hand ".
Enlightened paladin is more to get improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat for snake style. I don't really lose anything for that trade. The saves and lay on hands are key with that dip.
I want to avoid more multiclassing as much as I can to make precise strike and challenge stay relevant, so I think I'll skip the master of many styles.
I didn't consider the blade of the sword saint. Sounds neat, but I think rapiers are way cooler than katanas.
That's fair. Overall monk only would work in this scenario if you dropped levels 1 & 2 of paladin to get monk. But otherwise I agree, the Daring Challenger is very level dependent for the damage boost so i probably wouldn't dip past 2 or 3 levels in other classes unless you're grabbing something like sneak attack that can offset any sort of damage loss.
Its a shame that Fencing grace doesn't simply cover all piercing weapons as an Estoc would be pretty nice, roughly the same flavor, same crit range but 2d4 damage giving a nice boost in average damage. In theory you could still do it but it would require agile enchantment or a dip into rogue to get Dex to damage for it, but as that's potentially more effort than its worth, otherwise everything else seems good to go.
I was considering skipping the two feats for Fencing Grace and going AgIle Enhancement. If I did that I could even grab Estoc proficiency and Power Attack early.
I'm usually loathe to rely on Agile though. I'd much rather be able to use every rapier I find with finesse and grace rather then relying on some wizard's magic to do it for me. Just a personal preference.
Never saw the estoc before, thanks for the heads up! A one handed finessable falchion! Not to mention one of my favorite Dark Souls weapons.
Very good suggestions, thanks a lot for the input!