I'm having this horrible idea where the God of Economics gets upset at spellcasters and decides to mess with them by making a deal with the God of Stone to create massive quantities of diamonds and flood all markets with them, dropping their value into the dirt. Hell, they might even wind up replacing the world's currency due to their resilience and abundance.
There was a story once about the Dwarvish and Gnomish gods of gems in the FR setting and part of their job as deities was to reseed the world with gems as they were used up in magic rituals so that there was always a constant supply at the same level of rarity so gems were ever 'available' but always rare enough to keep their value.
There was also an old Dragon Magazine article I want to say it was in the late 80's about why gems were components to begin with and how rating gems by gold piece value was an easy way to rate their 'magical essence strength'.
For example, diamonds are used in resurrection magics because they represented purity and diamonds with a higher GP value HAD that value both for the diamond and the potency of the mystic power that diamond had inside.
So gems of an X GP value WERE that value because of their market value AND because of their mystic potency, which is why you could not just pay 25K for a 50 gold piece diamond and have it work for a spell. The diamond had to actually be 'WORTH' 25K so the mystic potential in the diamond would work for the spell.
One thing I did in my home campaign to formalize this is a simple ruling.
Gold and gems sub as a material components for anything with a GP value concerning magical item construction.
The value of gold in terms of magic is absolutely known. 1000 gp/day is the maximum a normal artificer can consume in gold per day without special training. That volume of gold is known and an absolute quality.
1000 gp is thus short termed a 'goldweight', the weight of gold an average crafter can consume in one day.
Other material components can be clearly and precisely measured to how much gold they substitute for in any usage of material usage. Silver is 1/10th as good as gold, platinum is x5 better. Gems can be perfectly graded on value by how much gold they sub for.
"Craftsmanship" effectively creates 'extra gold.' It's how craftsmen make money. Taking 350 gp in gems and gold and turning them into a 1000 gp necklace 'makes' 650 gp from the crafter's skill...the necklace is worth 1000 gp as a material component even if it only has 350 gp in raw material.
"Material Components finding" is also an entire career for people. Catching the last leaf to fall off a tree on midwinter's eve may net you a component worth 100 gp in making magical staves. A dram of blood from a virgin on her wedding night might be worth 10 gp. A shield which has withstood the impacts of a hundred different hurled spears might be worth 100 gp, etc etc etc. It all subs for gold.
And since using gold in magical items and the like consumes the gold and it is gone forever, magical components are preferred to using gold whenever possible.
Also note, that because other metals and some skill is involved in making coins, a thousand gp of gold coins has less pure gold then a Goldweight. Most coins are, however, magically unsuitable for use in making things, and would have to be melted down to the valuable gold to actually be able to be used as components.
Priests of the gods of cities and commerce can, however, use straight money for any...
Thank you Aelryinth for everything you said. What you're saying makes a lot of sense and this ruling makes things fairly simple. I would quote you on everything, but especially liked the comment you made on how the diamond needs to be worthy of the spell and therefore you can pay whatever amount it is you want for it.
In this case, it makes it so that it's kind of up to the player's appraise skill. Does the character think that this gem is worth such a powerful spell? If he does he tries to use it an sees where it goes from there.
Blake, you assume that the issue is of a player being unhappy with the circumstance. It could very easily be a matter of the character being unhappy with the fact that they are no longer the race they used to be. The player might actually be enjoying it in their own way despite roleplaying their character as hating the current circumstance and being willing to take rather extensive steps to remedy it. Now, I could be absolutely wrong about this, I don't believe the OP has mentioned what the actual feelings of the player are on this, so I may be incorrect.Personally, I like the "Quest for a gem valuable enough." It doesn't cause the party to take a hit to their WBL, and allows for a little more world expanding and creativity. There might be some problems, but as long as the other players are okay with going along with it, (because their characters hate seeing their friend in anguish over his new form, and also maybe out of guilt for doing it to him) I see no real issue. The GM might even use this side quest to introduce a new plot hook to drive the main story further.
Naketo, you are absolutely correct. I should have specified that it wasn't the player that was upset but instead his character. My friend is very good at roleplaying and although it does always sting to lose someone, he knows that he needs to be extra upset because he has turned into something he hates.
Assay 0 is a cantrip-level spell IMC that measures the GP viability of any particular item for magical purposes. It's used routinely to measure the 'worth' of precious metal, jewelry, magical items (you can consume some magical items to make other magical items) and gemstones.
It also tells you precisely if this leaf has magical significance or is just a leaf.
getting caught peddling worthless magical comps is the quick road to becoming necromantic magical components yourself. Why, the local alchemist can probably make 25-50 gold off you if he was careful in how he rendered you down and got most of the stuff out of you while you were still alive. Gotta pay for the onyx gemstone for that Animate Dead somehow...
Also, knowing something is worth money as a magical component very quickly leads to abuse by poachers and comp farmers. Since this can very quickly lead to the extinction of species, watch lists of this stuff are published, and people who abuse the lists get turned into stuff on the lists to help repopulate, buyers and sellers both. Or the druids find something even more useful to do with them.
Caster Guilds and Comp dealers thus tend to get VERY aggressive in rooting out these people. The harvesting of illegal comps is one of the hallmarks of evil cults and temples, and usually a clear flag of their existence, which also means the good churches rapidly get involved.
Net result, said comps quickly become more expensive to acquire then they are actually worth, and nobody farms them unless they are really flouting the law and can generally expect a fairly violent response.
==Aelryinth
I am gonna use this in my next game, somhow. Thanks:)...perhaps the diamond on its own would be worthless from real world jewelry standards. Maybe the diamond is only worth that much money because it has the right qualities as a spell component.
Maybe it only costs that much because every church, king, warlord, wizard, and petty noble are trying to hoard the things for their value as a magical component.
It could be an interesting plot point in a lower level campaign- people find a ring with an ugly little gem, and they don't realize it is a highly prized item (since normal people would not be familiar with something that rare).
It could be the start for a campaign where gangs and master thieves target some poor sod for no apparent reason (and he needs protection some intrepid do gooders). And after they get someone with a good appraise check to look at it, you then have to struggle to find a buyer rather than just giving the ring up because the guy needs the money to.... save the civic center or something.
The for sale for 25,000 gp shenanigans are not really warranted. the spell does not state a diamond purchased for 25,000gp, it says a diamond worth 25,000gp. In this game system, a basic longsword is always worth 15gp, no matter where you bought it or how much you bought it for. The real issue here is that there are not defined types and qualities of gems in the game. They are a generic object that can be assigned any value by the GM.
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25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
So that's the cost of a True Res... that's the worth of a life for those who have perished in ways where the body is not really recoverable. This means this is for the rich indeed. And the heroes... well... they better mean something to a well funded cause or temple... ;)
This one sold 10 millions, so you could say that's what you need for True Resurrection. Extremely rare (on Earth, anyway) so you might want to have a house rule that you need 25,000gp worth of diamonds (not a single diamond worth that... ;) )
25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
That also puts a longsword (15gp, 4.8 ounce of gold) at $5,730. An axe (10gp, 3.2 ounces) at $3820. A simple backpack (2gp, 0.64 ounces) at $764. A light wooden shield (3 gp, 0.96 ounces) at $1146.
D&D gold is more common and thus less expensive than real-world gold. You can't compare the two.
25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
So that's the cost of a True Res... that's the worth of a life for those who have perished in ways where the body is not really recoverable. This means this is for the rich indeed. And the heroes... well... they better mean something to a well funded cause or temple... ;)
This one sold 10 millions, so you could say that's what you need for True Resurrection. Extremely rare (on Earth, anyway) so you might want to have a house rule that you need 25,000gp worth of diamonds (not a single diamond worth that... ;) )
Except that these prices were set in the early '70s when Gold was $100 an ounce or less.
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Except that these prices were set in the early '70s when Gold was $100 an ounce or less.25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
So that's the cost of a True Res... that's the worth of a life for those who have perished in ways where the body is not really recoverable. This means this is for the rich indeed. And the heroes... well... they better mean something to a well funded cause or temple... ;)
This one sold 10 millions, so you could say that's what you need for True Resurrection. Extremely rare (on Earth, anyway) so you might want to have a house rule that you need 25,000gp worth of diamonds (not a single diamond worth that... ;) )
that's the beauty of gold, or land: their value never change... it's the money's value that changes. One ounce of gold in the 70's is exactly one ounce of gold now.
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25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
So that's the cost of a True Res... that's the worth of a life for those who have perished in ways where the body is not really recoverable. This means this is for the rich indeed. And the heroes... well... they better mean something to a well funded cause or temple... ;)
This one sold 10 millions, so you could say that's what you need for True Resurrection. Extremely rare (on Earth, anyway) so you might want to have a house rule that you need 25,000gp worth of diamonds (not a single diamond worth that... ;) )
Or you know, a bit less than the cost of a +4 sword.
Or a little more than a 7th level PC should have in total. Still not pocket change by the level they can cast it, but easily affordable - even for awhile before then.
Perhaps comparisons with modern prices aren't particularly useful.
Look dude: read the thread title. I tried to provide help in the way of an answer using the weight for gold that's provided to us in the game. Thanks for you input but I'm quite aware we're not doing an economics degree thesis here, and that there's probably real world experts who could answer this better than me via their intimate knowledge of gold / diamonds... but I'm not in that business. Yet I felt like giving it a shot. Feel free to go ahead and provide refinements. No one is stopping you.
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longsword = 15 gp = 0.02ozgold/gp x 15gp x $1194/ozgold = $358.20
sounds about right if you ask me
50 gp per pound. 15 gp is 0.3 pounds of gold, or 4.8 ounces of gold.
Each gold piece is 0.32 ounces of gold, or $382.
it's the size that is most hilarious.
I'd like to imagine it's sculpted like a tiny swan or something.
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longsword = 15 gp = 0.02ozgold/gp x 15gp x $1194/ozgold = $358.20
sounds about right if you ask me
50 gp per pound. 15 gp is 0.3 pounds of gold, or 4.8 ounces of gold.
Each gold piece is 0.32 ounces of gold, or $382.
Yes. I'm an idiot. Dropped the 16 oz multiplier for the longsword bit; however I didn't forget it for the 25,000gp = $9.5 million diamond... ;)
(so the diamond pics look fairly in the ballpark to me... via google while I was looking at this I read that the biggest diamond in the world is about half a kilo and worth 400 millions...)
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probably somewhere in the 20-30 carat range, far from common but not so rare as to have each one be considered singular. If they were any bigger then at best only one a year would likely be available for purchase in all of Golarion. Consider a range of 1/8th of an ounce (18.5 carats) to 1/4th of an ounce (37 carats) to be a good guide.well in terms of Golarion economics I'm fairly certain the value of a gp is fixed by weight and cost of CRB items does not change from campaign year to campaign year; again, I'm trying to answer "HOW BIG IS A 25,000 GOLD DIAMOND?"
Please contribute.
I wonder if every temple that has a resident high priest with True Res capability has a gemologist / jeweler / gemcutter on retainer to make sure the temple doesn't get swindled in all their bling deals... ;)
I think we can get a more realistic comparison of economies through the average person's wage, using the Profession skill. An average person can get a 14 on a Profession check by taking 10 with just one rank in Profession and a class skill, making an annual salary for the normal person around 352 gold pieces. In real life, the average income is $50,500 per year. This means that each gold piece is worth 143 dollars and 47 cents. Therefore, a 25,000 gold diamond is worth 3.58 million dollars.
I wonder if every temple that has a resident high priest with True Res capability has a gemologist / jeweler / gemcutter on retainer to make sure the temple doesn't get swindled in all their bling deals... ;)
They don't need one.
There is literally no way the temple can get ripped off. Customer walks in with a corpse and asks for a spell. Customer hands a diamond to the cleric, along with some cash to pay the spellcasting fee. Cleric casts the spell. If the diamond was big enough the spell works, the diamond is consumed, and the cleric pockets the fee. Otherwise, the spell fails, the cleric pockets the fee and returns the unconsumed diamond, and the customer needs to go get a better diamond.
If by chance the customer brought in a diamond that is MORE valuable, the spell still works. A lenient GM might have the diamond break into smaller pieces, some of which vaporize, essentially leaving diamond "change". Other GMs might just shrug and tell the player caveat emptor and consume the entire over-value diamond.
I wonder if every temple that has a resident high priest with True Res capability has a gemologist / jeweler / gemcutter on retainer to make sure the temple doesn't get swindled in all their bling deals... ;)They don't need one.
There is literally no way the temple can get ripped off. Customer walks in with a corpse and asks for a spell. Customer hands a diamond to the cleric, along with some cash to pay the spellcasting fee. Cleric casts the spell. If the diamond was big enough the spell works, the diamond is consumed, and the cleric pockets the fee. Otherwise, the spell fails, the cleric pockets the fee and returns the unconsumed diamond, and the customer needs to go get a better diamond.
If by chance the customer brought in a diamond that is MORE valuable, the spell still works. A lenient GM might have the diamond break into smaller pieces, some of which vaporize, essentially leaving diamond "change". Other GMs might just shrug and tell the player caveat emptor and consume the entire over-value diamond.
i play online with people so i can link images and things, i had a diamond not entire used up and i had it leave a dickbutt design behind. the party felt awkward explaining it to the next guy.
that's the beauty of gold, or land: their value never change... it's the money's value that changes. One ounce of gold in the 70's is exactly one ounce of gold now.Except that these prices were set in the early '70s when Gold was $100 an ounce or less.25,000gp is 500 lbs of gold, which is 8,000 oz of gold, which means, at the $1,194 per oz current gold price, that 25,000gp is equivalent to 9.55 million dollars.
So that's the cost of a True Res... that's the worth of a life for those who have perished in ways where the body is not really recoverable. This means this is for the rich indeed. And the heroes... well... they better mean something to a well funded cause or temple... ;)
This one sold 10 millions, so you could say that's what you need for True Resurrection. Extremely rare (on Earth, anyway) so you might want to have a house rule that you need 25,000gp worth of diamonds (not a single diamond worth that... ;) )
If you want to compare it to real world pricing, then you need to use the conversion rate when the prices were set, because the game systems haven't taken inflation into account. Plus you can't convert with 16 oz. to the pound, because gold, silver and other precious metals use the Troy weight system, where one normal pound is 14.5833 ounces. Add in the fact that the original D&D gold pieces were 1/10 of a pound.
So when the books were written, 1 gp was worth about $87.50. so a 25,000 gp diamond was worth about 2.2 million dollars. So at $2000 a carat in 1972 prices, the diamond would be about .45 pounds, and rank 3rd or 4th on the list of largest diamonds ever found.