Something I thought pertinent to add having been stalking this thread for a bit. There is a quote from one of my favorite rpg's Paranoia. It comes from the GM section which is above your clearance, but goes like this: "As the Game Master, GM, you are the world, you are The Computer (see: god) and your word is law. It is your job to ensure both yourself and the troubleshooters (see: players) are having fun, if any rule in this book makes that harder, the book is wrong. If the dice roll one way but it would be more fun if they rolled another, the dice are wrong..."
The way I've always GMed is I try to bring about interesting, dramatic and most importantly, fun stories and games to those at my table. Sometimes this means I fudge die rolls to prevent a boss, or major enemy, from being one rounded. Sometimes it means I fudge them so a player isn't randomly murdered.
I once had a player who constantly rolled really high (later learned he was cheating) and always used power-gamey builds, where the rest of the party were more casual players with non-optimized characters. If I had a boss who was a challenge fro the power gamer the other players couldn't touch him, likewise if I had a boss to challenge the rest of the party it would be one rounded by the power gamer.
So, behind the curtains I imposed a -2 penalty on everything the power gamer did, the boss' AC and saves were 2 higher against this player, had DR 2/- vs the player and got a +2 to hit the player in combat. The result was a boss who could challenge both the power gamer and the rest of the party. Was it technically cheating? ya, without a doubt. But without this cheating not everyone would have fun.
Granted, while 'cheating' by the GM, in moderation with good reason can make the game better, it can also be perverted. This power-gamer caught on I was... nerfing him somewhat, I tried talking him into not power-gaming as much but he refused and, in fact, went the other way. Though he never said so, it seems he thought that if I was cheating he...
On deceiving them for their own good (and yes, cheating), I had a problem with a powergamer that wanted to play a noble four armed Sahuaghin. Break out all the swords, ginzu everything to death. I ended up letting him play a normal Sahuaghin and balanced him to the party. He wasn't pleased. I should have done what you suggested, modified the numbers a bit, but another experienced dm had a better idea. A game within a game.
The player would be led to believe, and be able to play the noble four armed ginzu specialist of sushi roll slicing, except they weren't. No, they would actually be a mentally scarred water elf, that having gone off the deep end thought they were an absolute top order predator. The char would have two swords, not four and be balanced out to be equal to the rest of the party - not superior, which is of course what the powergamer player wanted.
The rest of the players would know, they would see an unkempt water breathing elf mad out of her mind and fascinated by waving swords about. This crazy elf would be quite the asset, and would of course always insist they were Sahughin. For evidence, of course the player has their sheet, which would have only limited bearing on the game (maybe half of the attacks would count, since those extra two arms are all in their head). I thought it was an excellent idea, but I didn't have the wish to lie and cheat to that degree. :)
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I absolutely am more forgiving than most people I know - especially for younger people (and this guy is in his late teens).
This was a rather critical fact that you left out earlier. Would have changed my replies.
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D&D was a game of the nerds. A game for the social outcasts and awkward kids who needed to escape in a world of fantasy rather than deal with the harsh realities of their world.
Yep, those nerds, social outcasts and awkward kids like Stephen Colbert, Chris Hardwick, musician Moby, Vin Diesel, Matthew Lillard, Wil Wheaton, Robin Williams*, Jason Alexander, Patton Oswald, Mike Myers, Billy Crystal, Kevin Smith, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, Matt Groening, Eddie Izzard, Trey Parker, Matt Stone, Stephen King, Jack Black,Joss Whedon, David Duchovney, Patrick Rothfuss, Alton Brown, Felicia Day, Eliza Dushku, Matthew Lillard, and supposedly Dame Judi Dench DMs for her grandkids.
and I got to play with Fritz Leiber who ran Fafhrd.
* I bet Robin gets into the Big Game "up there" with Gygax, Arneson & co.
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D&D was a game of the nerds. A game for the social outcasts and awkward kids who needed to escape in a world of fantasy rather than deal with the harsh realities of their world.Yep, those nerds, social outcasts and awkward kids like Stephen Colbert, Chris Hardwick, musician Moby, Vin Diesel, Matthew Lillard, Wil Wheaton, Robin Williams*, Jason Alexander, Patton Oswald, Mike Myers, Billy Crystal, Kevin Smith, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, Matt Groening, Eddie Izzard, Trey Parker, Matt Stone, Stephen King, Jack Black,Joss Whedon, David Duchovney, Patrick Rothfuss, Alton Brown, Felicia Day, Eliza Dushku, Matthew Lillard, and supposedly Dame Judi Dench DMs for her grandkids.
and I got to play with Fritz Leiber who ran Fafhrd.
* I bet Robin gets into the Big Game "up there" with Gygax, Arneson & co.
Off the top of my head, Colbert was an awkward kid who overcame it with comedy, Moby was a wierdo, Diesel is a self described nerd, Lillard was a wierdo, Wheaton was a nerd, Williams suffered lifelong depression and commited suicide, Kevin Smith was an awkward kid, Groening the same way, Izzard is definitely a wierdo (still is), Parker and Stone were both awkward kids, Alton is still a wierdo today, Day was awkward and a nerd (she still is a nerd)...
As I said, most of us grew up and embraced our weirdness and made something out of it. Almost everyone in your list did. Hell, I'm still a nerd and I love it. And I love the works of nearly everyone on your list (I'm not sure who Judi Dench is).
If you're going to criticize me, at least try not to quote mine me as well. While you're busy trying to make me look like a fool, you're just making yourself look like a jackass.
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You know, in regard to the four armed noble ginsu saguahin, I think you did the right thing, DM Under. Sometimes you just need to say "No".
"Ooh, but you're not respecting my concept."
"If your character concept doesn't fit the established guidelines of the game as presented by the GM, then change your concept."
I mean it's not like that's the only possible character type he could've played. When there's billions of combinations possible with as many races, classes, feats, and traits in the game as there are, saying no to a handful isn't really stifling creativity.
Better a legit allowed combo that isn't secretly gimped IMO than secretly nerfing a player who chose an idea you weren't comfortable with in the first place.
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It could be, with the millions of players out there across the world, the couple dozen or so of famous ones you can mention are, you know, statistical outliers...
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I absolutely am more forgiving than most people I know - especially for younger people (and this guy is in his late teens).This was a rather critical fact that you left out earlier. Would have changed my replies.
I.. I don't believe you.
You've been against me this entire thread, finding a way to criticize me no matter what I have said or did. You even criticized me for doing exactly what you said I *should* have done.
So I really do not believe that your replies would have changed had you known the age of the person (who is technically an adult); you've decided to be against me for whatever reason. Each and everyone one of your replies in this thread have shown that.
I think that the only reason you even said this is because it's yet another way to make it look like I'm the bad guy and that your replies critisizing me are somehow my fault, when you're the one who chose to poorly read my original comments and critisizing me based on your lack of understanding the situation. At first, I was forgiving of you because I had thought that maybe I was in the wrong and that I didn't give enough detail - but you've literally criticized me for doing what you think I should have done, and that is entirely on you.
And now you're critisizing me for a quote mine without any regard to my qualifying statements that went wth it.
Frankly, I'm tired of your crap and your deception.
So don't blame me for your words. Own them. Their yours. Stand by what you say. And if you think you were in the wrong, then apologize for it and correct your own words.
And if you can't apologize for your incorrect statements and general meanness, then.. Well, I can't put you on ignore with this site like I can others, but at least everyone here will know that you'd rather be known as a jerk than anything else - and there are a lot of top names from the messageboards in this tread. So if you can't apologize or even say something nice, then learn to live with the reputation you create for yourself.
It could be, with the millions of players out there across the world, the couple dozen or so of famous ones you can mention are, you know, statistical outliers...
...what the f&$* is that and why is it on your face.
I—I'm sorry, I know that's not what we're talking about here, but...
...IT CHANGED D:
Okay, back on-topic. DrDeth, I've noticed you tend to take highly hostile or critical sides in the threads you post on. Perhaps if you were a bit less aggressive in those your highly grudging retractions would be afforded more weight here.
It might only be tangentially related to the thread topic, but reading the last few post I realized something: I was 10 or 11 when I started playing D&D. (Moldvay Basic, if anyone's asking.) It's not that I was some maladjusted social misfit, It's that Idd barely had the experience to develop a personality at all.
But playing RPGs (that, is sitting around a table, engaging with a group of people) is a social activity. D&D is where I learned how to relate with others, and I'm a better person for having played the game.
I guess I'm saying that caring about D&D being nerdy is something you grow out of, but I don't want to turn this into a "It Gets Better' promo.
I apologize bookrat if you think I have been in any way mean or a jerk towards you. You asked for a opinion on what you had done, and I disagreed with what you had done. You're not a bad person, what you did isn't horrible, I just felt it is the DM's job to confront players about issues like this.
I appreciate that "this GM is really bad at confrontation" and I understand the problems that might cause and your frustration. Still, no matter how bad the DM is at confrontation, I feel it's his duty to handle this, not one player vs another. My responses were also made the a general audience, not just your situation "A Player doesn't "step in", Player to Player. Ever. Either the DM handles it, or the players as a group discuss it.. ...The point here is that it's never a one player decision to accuse another of "cheating". "
This was not directly addressing just your situation. It was advice for any and all readers. This sort of thing is for the DM to handle, I have always said
I think you did what you thought was right, and I appreciate your sense of what's right and wrong. I am glad it worked out for you.
So- I think you are a wonderful poster and a credit to your gaming table. I thank you for handling a difficult situation in a adult manner. But you shouldn't have had to handle it.
finally- having been a DM for a very long time means I do have biases, and my bias is that handling issues like this is the prerogative of the DM, no matter how bad he is at confrontation- after all DM's gotta learn too, right?
Can you forgive an old grognard for being set in his crusty old ways?
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Well, do we blame old people who are still being racist? ;)
It's neat that your table is run with such a sharp divide of power. That's a valid way to run. It's also not a very common way to run these days. The GM manages the NPCs and story. Maybe the rules, too. Sometimes even stuff like venue and food. But the GM is not in charge of the social aspects. The GM should be consulted in such areas, but the standard is, "If the GM can't stop Player A from being a dick, it's handled as players see fit." There's no obligation to get a consensus from the collective before going up to Player A and telling him his sheet's got more errors than a goblin crossword puzzle.
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Well, at least you didn't have to deal with this in PFS.
I have one fellow, I sometimes play PFS with, who plays an illegal Race, without a Race Boon, along with a misunderstanding of how some math works, and apparently how CN, means neurotic evil dick, who assaults children, eats human flesh, and does the occasional nice thing, so it's all okay.
By the way: @bookrat: I would game with you.
Just checking here DM-Under, are you sure the power gamer in question wanted to be more powerful than the party, or just more powerful than normal? [In the later case the party could be powered up to match and let him have his fun too. In the first case there's really no help for it.]
Both. He didn't care about balance or my attempts to balance him with the party.
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I apologize bookrat if you think I have been in any way mean or a jerk towards you. You asked for a opinion on what you had done, and I disagreed with what you had done. You're not a bad person, what you did isn't horrible, I just felt it is the DM's job to confront players about issues like this.
I appreciate that "this GM is really bad at confrontation" and I understand the problems that might cause and your frustration. Still, no matter how bad the DM is at confrontation, I feel it's his duty to handle this, not one player vs another. My responses were also made the a general audience, not just your situation "A Player doesn't "step in", Player to Player. Ever. Either the DM handles it, or the players as a group discuss it.. ...The point here is that it's never a one player decision to accuse another of "cheating". "
This was not directly addressing just your situation. It was advice for any and all readers. This sort of thing is for the DM to handle, I have always said
I think you did what you thought was right, and I appreciate your sense of what's right and wrong. I am glad it worked out for you.
So- I think you are a wonderful poster and a credit to your gaming table. I thank you for handling a difficult situation in a adult manner. But you shouldn't have had to handle it.
finally- having been a DM for a very long time means I do have biases, and my bias is that handling issues like this is the prerogative of the DM, no matter how bad he is at confrontation- after all DM's gotta learn too, right?
Can you forgive an old grognard for being set in his crusty old ways?
Absolutely. This post here brings you back up in good graces with me. :)
We all get a little "focused," so to speak, every now and then. And we all need a little check here and there. I know some people here have had to reign me in when I was too harsh on them before.
What separates us from the chaff is our willingness to say sorry and mean it. So thank you for your apology.
Back to the issue at hand; I understand your point of view, and I understand where it comes from. I just completely disagree - however, I'm a rare bird that believes the game does not being to the GM and I understand that *a lot* of people do not agree with me on that particular point of view. Because I understand this, I typically try not to argue about which way is right, but rather present my opinion with the caveat that most will not agree.
To me, it's a group game and therefore a group decision. The GM is just one player amongst everyone at the table. Whenever I read "GM needs to make a decision" I change it to "Everyone at the table needs to make a decision." For me, we all decide the house rules, we all decide the the game we want to play, and we're all (or we all should be) mature enough to be able to talk to each other about it. I typically agree that a GM should be able to make a quick call to keep the game moving, but then the group decides how it will be handled in the long run. At my table (literally my table because we play at my house and I'm usually the GM), I expect all of us to look up questionable rules between sessions and have an opinion by the following session.
Most of my opinion comes from playing at a table for nearly 13 years with a GM who believed that the GM had all the power - and by the end of it all it was an extremely bad experience for me. I lost a lot of friends over this power-hungry and controlling GM (who was also prone to lying and talking crap about people behind their backs); a GM that threw a hissy fit if you dared use Math to prove your point and declared "Fine, game over; you win bad guys lose everyone go home" if you argued with her about any of her decisions.
I don't ever want to have my hobby destroyed by a person like that ever again. So I am very adamant about keeping it a group decision, even when I'm not the one playing the GM position. And when I'm the GM, I don't ever want to be perceived as a domineering GM, so I always want to hear what everyone else has to say about a rule or something in game.
This is our game. This is our hobby. How do we want to play, together?
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You know, in regard to the four armed noble ginsu saguahin, I think you did the right thing, DM Under. Sometimes you just need to say "No".
"Ooh, but you're not respecting my concept."
"If your character concept doesn't fit the established guidelines of the game as presented by the GM, then change your concept."
I mean it's not like that's the only possible character type he could've played. When there's billions of combinations possible with as many races, classes, feats, and traits in the game as there are, saying no to a handful isn't really stifling creativity.
Better a legit allowed combo that isn't secretly gimped IMO than secretly nerfing a player who chose an idea you weren't comfortable with in the first place.
Thank you for the support. I will go have a salutary green tea in your honour.
Mmmm, it smells nice.