Prawn wrote: Jiggy wrote: Prawn wrote: A guard should be guarding, so that's taking 10. According to what? Why do you believe this? What originally gave you the idea that T10 has anything at all to do with something you're deliberate about? That is why I asked the question. I am not sure. If you're not sure where you got the idea, and other people (as well as the rulebook) are telling you it works a different way, then it would probably be good to abandon your idea and adopt that which can be supported. Not only for this topic, but as a general "best practice". :)
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If you as a GM take 10 on your NPC's perception checks to detect the PCs then you shouldn't have a problem with your PCs being allowed to do the same.
DM_Blake wrote: Not necessarily. Maybe he's actively looking around, scanning the area for trouble. That's not taking-10, that's rolling. What? The logic doesn't follow. Someone who is actively looking around, scanning an area for trouble could EASILY be taking 10!
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Jiggy wrote: LazarX wrote: Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it. You are wrong. You made this up. It is dishonest of you to present it as fact in the Rules Questions forum. You can take 10 on an action you initiate, not when it's a forced check to avoid surprise. In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it.
LazarX wrote: Jiggy wrote: LazarX wrote: Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it. You are wrong. You made this up. It is dishonest of you to present it as fact in the Rules Questions forum. You can take 10 on an action you initiate, not when it's a forced check to avoid surprise. In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it. You keep saying things and we keep asking for quotes. I specifically asked you for a quote the last time you responded to me. Your lack of refusal to do so is making it look like you are making things up. I am not saying you are, but I am saying it looks that way. If it is a rule then just provide the quote. That would most likely shut myself and Jiggy up. Otherwise this is just going to be a repeating circle of "yes I can" vs "no you cant".
Adventurers are usually on the lookout for danger and ambush. Some people choose to roll, but to say that adventurers aren't actively looking for enemies is ridiculous.
Stop trying to invalidate taking 10 by essentially only allowing it to work in circumstances once can take 20.
LazarX wrote: You can take 10 on an action you initiate, not when it's a forced check to avoid surprise. You made this up too.
Quote: In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. And this. You should really stop making stuff up and pretending it's how the rules work. It's pretty disrespectful to how Paizo has chosen to organize their forums (with different areas for Rules and Houserules, etc).
Quote: You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it. This one I could see someone presuming by accident, but I've already pointed out twice in this very thread how Knowledge checks—which meet your criteria for something you can't T10 on—are most definitely viable for T10. This was even recently confirmed in a FAQ.
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Lets try this one last time.
These are the rules on taking 10. Note the bolded parts
Take 10
When a character or creature is not in immediate danger or distracted, it may choose to take 10 on some rolls (specifically, skill checks). Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
You can choose to take 10 on a task you're focusing on, such as climbing a rope, it means you know that you're making the check and making decisions on how to use the skill.
You also can not take 10 when you are distracted or threathened. Threathened being defined as a dangerous situation. Combat phases count as being in a dangerous situation.
So you can't take 10 in a suprise round for two very good reasons. 1. your'e not in a position to make a choice about handling your perception, and 2. You're in combat whether you realize it or not, so you're not in a position to take 10, unless you have special mechanics that give you an exception.
LazarX, you were not being called out on the claim that you can't T10 in the surprise round.
LazarX wrote: Lets try this one last time.
These are the rules on taking 10. Note the bolded parts
Take 10
When a character or creature is not in immediate danger or distracted, it may choose to take 10 on some rolls (specifically, skill checks). Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
You can choose to take 10 on a task you're focusing on, such as climbing a rope, it means you know that you're making the check and making decisions on how to use the skill.
You also can not take 10 when you are distracted or threathened. Threathened being defined as a dangerous situation. Combat phases count as being in a dangerous situation.
So you can't take 10 in a suprise round for two very good reasons. 1. your'e not in a position to make a choice about handling your perception, and 2. You're in combat whether you realize it or not, so you're not in a position to take 10, unless you have special mechanics that give you an exception.
We've talked about the danger part and I concede that's possible for surprise perception checks, though I'll point out that you're not in combat phases yet at the point you roll perception.
But that's irrelevant to the other point I think. If I read you rightly you're claiming that you can't Take 10 on any reactive check because you're not choosing to make that roll. Based on the bolded "may choose to take 10 on some rolls" phrasing, correct?
I don't think that's what is meant. You're not choosing to make the check, but choosing how to do so isn't the same as choosing to make the check in the first place. You're making a check. You're choosing to Take 10 instead of roll. That doesn't violate the text.
Edit: You've also changed your reasoning for why you can't take 10. I assume you're dropping the argument that it's because you don't have a complete turn.
Since the perception roll to avoid being surprised happens before the initiative roll that starts combat, how can you possibly be in combat for the perception roll?
If combat has started-- i.e. initiative has been rolled-- and the enemies got a surprise round, and you have no idea they're there-- then yes, you're in combat*. But literally by definition, the check being spoken of here does not happen in combat. Other Perception checks can-- trying to detect an enemy using Stealth while under attack by other foes-- but this one? Nope.
*this is the situation in which the Take 10 Juggler would be useful. If you happen to be able to always act in the surprise round, you know that when your juggling has failed something has successfully initiated combat against you, and you better throw up a buff.
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On LazarX's statements, I think most of the conversation has to do with whether #2 is the case here. I have an opinion, but it doesn't rise to the level of making a confident post in the rules forum.
On #1, I don't think that being in such a position that you're fully aware of it is relevant here. I would allow someone to say "I'll take 10 on any Perception checks that come up" and I think this falls into the same situation. Just because the character isn't aware it'll be necessary doesn't mean they can't get in that stance, as it were. Also, I'd allow other things like moment of prescience and this seems like the same level of choice. Likewise on using rerolls that don't require an immediate action (although that's potentially a little dicier).
I understand that this puts me in a funny position on rolls I don't tell the players they're making. That said, I'd allow them to set up conditions on those checks that I would evaluate for them, so that's more a matter of practical limitations (don't want to spoil things they don't know about) than rules limitations.
The title of this thread is misleading. If it were simply taking 10 prior to a surprise round it would be more accurate and the answer would be clear, you are not threatened or in combat until the surprise round begins. Why? Because otherwise it wouldn't be a "surprise" round, you can't be distracted by something that hasn't started and that you cannot see. Taking 10 on perception seems perfectly legit save in the middle of combat or other precarious situations of which you are aware.
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Lazar nobody said you could take 10 on perception rolls in combat. I specifically said you could not. I am saying that before combat starts a perception check would need to be made to determine who can participate in the surprise round if combat does start. That roll is still out of combat, and there is no rule saying you can not take 10 on it.
If you have a rule to support your post on out of combat checks then quote it. So far your last quote only concerns in combat checks.
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Why are so many people treating the Take 10 rules like some kind of golden ticket?
I doesn't even guarantee success.
Seriously, what the hell?
Also I think one problem here is that the title of the thread says "take 10 in a surprise round", but actually you are taking 10 before the surprise round. That may be skewing perceptions(no pun intended) of what is actually going on.
Still, you get the overreactions, that make no logical sense.
"Did you just try to TAKE 10?!? What are you, some kind of cheater?!?"
blackbloodtroll wrote: Still, you get the overreactions, that make no logical sense.
"Did you just try to TAKE 10?!? What are you, some kind of cheater?!?"
Many GM's want to try to force rolls, so they think of any justification they can to avoid taking 10. To call it cheating is going to far however. It is better to just admit they dont like the rule.
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kestral287 wrote: Since the perception roll to avoid being surprised happens before the initiative roll that starts combat, how can you possibly be in combat for the perception roll?
Combat actually has started, because the ambushers are doing their ambushing thing. The surprise round starts before the suprised are aware, the perception check is that immediate reactive check to see if you can become aware and participate in the suprise round.
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thejeff wrote: Edit: You've also changed your reasoning for why you can't take 10. I assume you're dropping the argument that it's because you don't have a complete turn. Not really, I'm rephrasing it in what I think is better language and context, with the quoted rule posted.
I would consider the imminent start of combat an "immediate danger" and thus disallow taking 10 on perception checks to determine surprise.
bbt: A character with a good perception check may only fail to see ambushes 10-25% of the time, but if you allow them to take 10, they may never be surprised. I prefer to keep surprise rounds a bit less predictable.
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wraithstrike wrote: Lazar nobody said you could take 10 on perception rolls in combat. I specifically said you could not. I am saying that before combat starts a perception check would need to be made to determine who can participate in the surprise round if combat does start. That roll is still out of combat, and there is no rule saying you can not take 10 on it.
If you have a rule to support your post on out of combat checks then quote it. So far your last quote only concerns in combat checks.
The rule I quoted is the one that supports my position. Where are fundamental disagreement is that I rule that combat starts when the ambush does. When you are making that perception check, the suprise round has ALREADY started. The check simply dictates whether you get to act in it or not, and since that check is being made during the surprise round, you can not take ten on that or any other check barring special mechanical exceptions. And for obvious reasons you can't take 10 on when material calls upon the Judge to make secret Perception checks.
Surprise rounds are wierd anyway.
This happens all the time: The monsters jump out from cover. Party makes the percep check, then party gets the init, goes first and ambushes the ambushers while they are still flat footed.
How can the monsters, who started the surprise round, be flat footed?
So the possibility of someone maybe not being able to take 10 BEFORE the surprise round doesn't phase me one bit.
I am just saying that I don't understand the actual rule involved. Once the rule is clear, I can always discuss a house rule if it bothers me.
LazarX wrote: kestral287 wrote: Since the perception roll to avoid being surprised happens before the initiative roll that starts combat, how can you possibly be in combat for the perception roll?
Combat actually has started, because the ambushers are doing their ambushing thing. The surprise round starts before the suprised are aware, the perception check is that immediate reactive check to see if you can become aware and participate in the suprise round. No they're not.
They're "doing their ambushing thing" once the surprise round starts. Before then they can be stealthing and setting up their ambush, but they are not ambushing.
Perception wrote: Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are trying to "avoid being surprised", by definition you cannot already be surprised, yes? And if you're not surprised, and not participating in the surprise round, and the surprise round is the first thing to happen in combat... then there's no possible way for us to be in combat.
Unless you can demonstrate with a rule that combat begins before the surprise round?
Prawn wrote: Surprise rounds are wierd anyway.
This happens all the time: The monsters jump out from cover. Party makes the percep check, then party gets the init, goes first and ambushes the ambushers while they are still flat footed.
How can the monsters, who started the surprise round, be flat footed?
So the order of someone maybe not being able to take 10 BEFORE the surprise round doesn't phase me one bit since the danger is already present.
I am just saying that I don't understand the actual rule involved. Once the rule is clear, I can always discuss a house rule if it bothers me.
If the monsters are "jumping out of cover", that probably is the surprise round. The PCs should have already made their Perception checks vs. the monsters' Stealth checks and failed. Once they fail that check, the monsters can initiate combat by using their surprise round for a standard or move action-- in this case moving out of cover. If the PCs instead made the checks to notice the monsters, combat begins with no surprise round and monsters under cover.
Pretty much the only time a PC should have a monster jump out of cover at them and then catch that monster flat-footed is a Diviner, Kensai, or similar "always act in the surprise round" class, who tend to be based on obnoxiously good reflexes, being Creed-level tactical geniuses, or literally seeing the future. In which case these things make sense (but also, they would get their action before the monster jumps out of cover, if they're winning initiative).
LazarX wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Lazar nobody said you could take 10 on perception rolls in combat. I specifically said you could not. I am saying that before combat starts a perception check would need to be made to determine who can participate in the surprise round if combat does start. That roll is still out of combat, and there is no rule saying you can not take 10 on it.
If you have a rule to support your post on out of combat checks then quote it. So far your last quote only concerns in combat checks.
The rule I quoted is the one that supports my position. Where are fundamental disagreement is that I rule that combat starts when the ambush does. When you are making that perception check, the suprise round has ALREADY started. The check simply dictates whether you get to act in it or not, and since that check is being made during the surprise round, you can not take ten on that or any other check barring special mechanical exceptions. And for obvious reasons you can't take 10 on when material calls upon the Judge to make secret Perception checks. I'm perfectly willing to accept that argument, though I don't think it's as clear as you do and would rather it be stated before it comes up in game.
I'm not happy with "because you don't have a full round" or because "you're not in a position to make a choice about handling your perception".
As for your obvious last point - would you accept a request from a player to have all secret Perception checks to be done as Take 10 if possible? Or am I reading the obvious reasons wrong?
Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
LazarX wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Lazar nobody said you could take 10 on perception rolls in combat. I specifically said you could not. I am saying that before combat starts a perception check would need to be made to determine who can participate in the surprise round if combat does start. That roll is still out of combat, and there is no rule saying you can not take 10 on it.
If you have a rule to support your post on out of combat checks then quote it. So far your last quote only concerns in combat checks.
The rule I quoted is the one that supports my position. Where are fundamental disagreement is that I rule that combat starts when the ambush does. When you are making that perception check, the suprise round has ALREADY started. The check simply dictates whether you get to act in it or not, and since that check is being made during the surprise round, you can not take ten on that or any other check barring special mechanical exceptions. And for obvious reasons you can't take 10 on when material calls upon the Judge to make secret Perception checks. That is incorrect.
Here is the order of things.
Someone makes a stealth check.
Someone makes a perception check.
If the person hiding decides to attack those who are aware can participate in the surprise round---combat begins.
The reason is this:
hiding goblins
PC moving along the path-making perception checks.
The ranger notices the goblins, tells them to stand down because <insert reason>
The goblins may not attack. At that point combat never began.
edit: Now I know some GM's don't do it that way, but that does no make it right. Basically if you are aware of the opponent you get to fight, but that awareness(perception) check should be already taken care of.
Otherwise you are saying the victim gets an initial perception check, and then another one during the surprise round, and that is not how the rules work.
Byakko wrote: Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
He doesn't see anything in the rules which support it either or he would have provided a quote by now.
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The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
_Ozy_ wrote: The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
It is also explicitly representative of being in danger.
Or distracted. Not necessarily both.
thejeff wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
It is also explicitly representative of being in danger.
Or distracted. Not necessarily both.
A potential ambush is a distraction. It is also not you being threatened. You don't even know about the potential ambush. The ambush may never even take place, so it is not a threat yet, just like potentially failing to make the DC on a disable device check to jam a door with enemies that you don't know are coming is not a distraction or threat. Basically the distraction or threat has to be clear and present, and not a "might probably happen" for you to not be able to take 10. That is the point of the rule.
thejeff wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
It is also explicitly representative of being in danger.
Or distracted. Not necessarily both.
Representative of being _distracted_ by being in danger. There is simply no other way to rule it in a way that makes sense, otherwise you get the 'danger detector' by juggling taking 10 until you drop the ball because 'now you are in danger' without even knowing it.
You have to be able to posit some sort of mechanism by which the rules actually work. What mechanism are you invoking such that an unknown threat makes it more difficult to succeed at a routine skill usage? Is there some sort of magic 'misfortune' field that exists in the game that automatically interferes with a person whenever that person is in danger?
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wraithstrike wrote: Byakko wrote: Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
He doesn't see anything in the rules which support it either or he would have provided a quote by now. And if we're playing that route, I see nothing in the text I quoted that says you can take 10 on perception checks in the suprise round.
Pathfinder isn't a game where you can argue "I can't find a rule that says I can't do X". The burden of proof is finding one that says you can. I have made my argument for when I consider combat to have started. When you are in combat, whether you are aware of that fact or not, you can not take 10 on your checks.... period.
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_Ozy_ wrote: thejeff wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
It is also explicitly representative of being in danger.
Or distracted. Not necessarily both.
Representative of being _distracted_ by being in danger. There is simply no other way to rule it in a way that makes sense, otherwise you get the 'danger detector' by juggling taking 10 until you drop the ball because 'now you are in danger' without even knowing it.
You have to be able to posit some sort of mechanism by which the rules actually work. What mechanism are you invoking such that an unknown threat makes it more difficult to succeed at a routine skill usage? Is there some sort of magic 'misfortune' field that exists in the game that automatically interferes with a person whenever that person is in danger? There is no interference. it's the sudden compression of action and movement which comprises the suprrise initiation of combat. Reactive checks BY THEIR NATURE are not under concious control, if you are relying on instinctive use of Perception, you can't take 10 on it.
Dude, read the original post. It was about taking 10 _to determine_ whether a PC was surprised for the surprise round. It was NOT about taking 10 while acting during the surprise round.
Sometimes you shouldn't post just based on the title of the thread.
LazarX wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Byakko wrote: Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
He doesn't see anything in the rules which support it either or he would have provided a quote by now. And if we're playing that route, I see nothing in the text I quoted that says you can take 10 on perception checks in the suprise round. Sure there is. You can take ten on skill checks. Perception checks are skill checks. Unless there is something else that says otherwise, you can take ten on perception checks, including those to avoid surprise.
Quote: When you are in combat, whether you are aware of that fact or not, you can not take 10 on your checks.... period. This is correct. Fortunately, when one is rolling - or taking ten on - a perception check to avoid being ambushed, they aren't in combat yet.
General rule: you can take 10 on a check unless you are distracted or in danger.
That's the rule we're operating off of. That is us, accomplishing our burden of proof.
Now the burden is on you to illustrate a specific rule indicating that these perception checks made before the surprise round are in combat. You have failed at meeting your burden, whereas our General-Rule burden of proof was actually achieved by the original poster.
Further meeting of the burden of proof was accomplished by illustrating just why a Perception check made before the surprise round can't possibly be part of combat, first met by Jiggy several hours ago and later matched by DM_Blake and myself (and probably one or two others).
So. Burden's on you Lazar. Get to work on those rules quotes.
LazarX wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: thejeff wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: The surprise round hasn't started until _after_ the perception check. The perception check is to determine whether the PCs can participate in the surprise round or not, whether they actually are 'surprised'.
Not being able to take 10 is representative of _being distracted_ by threats. If the PCs have not detected the threat yet, then they can't be distracted by that threat that they haven't detected.
I seriously have no idea where some of you guys are getting your rules from.
It is also explicitly representative of being in danger.
Or distracted. Not necessarily both.
Representative of being _distracted_ by being in danger. There is simply no other way to rule it in a way that makes sense, otherwise you get the 'danger detector' by juggling taking 10 until you drop the ball because 'now you are in danger' without even knowing it.
You have to be able to posit some sort of mechanism by which the rules actually work. What mechanism are you invoking such that an unknown threat makes it more difficult to succeed at a routine skill usage? Is there some sort of magic 'misfortune' field that exists in the game that automatically interferes with a person whenever that person is in danger? There is no interference. it's the sudden compression of action and movement which comprises the suprrise initiation of combat. Reactive checks BY THEIR NATURE are not under concious control, if you are relying on instinctive use of Perception, you can't take 10 on it. Rule please. The general rule is that you can take 10 on ALL checks (except UMD) unless distracted or threatened.
Tell me, where do you see the prohibition on taking 10 with reactive checks? FFS, taking 10 on reactive perception is "the norm" when you are dealing with NPCs and PCs. It's your passive perception score.
Here, I'll quote the actual rule:
Quote: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Notice the difference between 'your character' and 'you' (the player) in the quoted rule. The player make choose to 'take 10' as long as 'the character' is not distracted or in immediate danger.
You're simply, once again, inventing rules that don't exist.
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Bronnwynn wrote: LazarX wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Byakko wrote: Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
He doesn't see anything in the rules which support it either or he would have provided a quote by now. And if we're playing that route, I see nothing in the text I quoted that says you can take 10 on perception checks in the suprise round. Sure there is. You can take ten on skill checks. Perception checks are skill checks. Unless there is something else that says otherwise, you can take ten on perception checks, including those to avoid surprise.
Quote: When you are in combat, whether you are aware of that fact or not, you can not take 10 on your checks.... period. This is correct. Fortunately, when one is rolling - or taking ten on - a perception check to avoid being ambushed, they aren't in combat yet.
And that's where we disagree. If the players have no forewarning I don't allow them to make active Perception checks every 30 feet of overland travel. I only allow take 10 on perception if you are in a standing guard duty position, (which is the assumption I make of standard NPC Guards) not if you're traveling, because your mind is on other things, minding the road, controlling your mount, keeping from getting lost, idiotic conversation, etc.
... Guards don't have their minds on other things or have idiotic conversations?
You're an unrealistic optimist I see.
LazarX wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Byakko wrote: Guys, it really doesn't matter if combat has started or not.
Not being able to take 10 isn't dependent upon being in combat, it's dependent upon being in immediate danger.
That being said, LazerX, you have posted a number of questionable statements in this thread:
Quote: "You can't take 10 on a reactive check. You can only take 10 on actions that you initiate, such as a perception search."
"Since you don't have a complete turn to do your check, you can't take 10 on it."
"In this case the perception check is more like a saving throw, so no taking 10 on it. You don't even realize you're making the check, so you can't take 10 on it."
You seem to be under the impression that you can't take 10 on reactive checks. I see nothing in the rules which supports that.
He doesn't see anything in the rules which support it either or he would have provided a quote by now. And if we're playing that route, I see nothing in the text I quoted that says you can take 10 on perception checks in the suprise round.
Pathfinder isn't a game where you can argue "I can't find a rule that says I can't do X". The burden of proof is finding one that says you can. I have made my argument for when I consider combat to have started. When you are in combat, whether you are aware of that fact or not, you can not take 10 on your checks.... period. The rules say taking 10 is allowed unless ______. You have yet to show anything supporting your side.
I can quote the rules, and show that nothing you mentioned is supported.
I am not attacking you so there is no need to be upset. I am just pointing out that you have not shown anything to back your case.
I understand the rules are not perfect, and sometimes I have had to use precedent to prove a point, but you have provided neither rules nor precedent to back your statement. Without that you wont get anywhere. If you like I can just make a new thread asking if someone hiding removes the ability to take 10 for perception checks. Better yet I can make a general case for taking 10, and citing a few examples so we can take of this with regard to disable device and other skills also.
_Ozy_ wrote: Dude, read the original post. It was about taking 10 _to determine_ whether a PC was surprised for the surprise round. It was NOT about taking 10 while acting during the surprise round.
Sometimes you shouldn't post just based on the title of the thread.
I mentioned this already, and he claims that the perception check is made after the surprise round begins.
edited: for correctness
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I am flabbergasted by some of the definitions of perception here. Let's just call it looking and listening. A party of adventurers are always looking and listening, because they are constantly getting in fights, including for hidden threats.
A perception check before the surprise round is just asking, "Did you see the enemies before they attack?" Are you threatened at that point? Not from the attack because it HASN'T HAPPENED YET. Are you distracted at that point? Once again, not from the attack, because it hasn't happened yet.
Taking 10 is just an average set lookout. Perception is an ongoing always present activity, the game cannot perfectly model that, but noticing an attack before the attack happens is quintessentially a situation one can take 10 in because you performing a normal task.
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Has initiative been rolled?
Yes? You are in combat.
No? You are not in combat.
That is how you know if you are in combat.
Prawn wrote: As a DM, I ruled last night that perception checks for surprise had to be rolled, reasoning that surprise was a distraction.
The player said that taking 10 does not involve any intention, so he could take 10 even if he doesn't know he needs to be actively looking for something.
What do you guys think?
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
1 When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2 Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3 After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
4 Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5 When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
Note the order. Combat starts Then surprise is determined. If you are rolliing perception for a surprise round you are in combat and already have an initiative score. A monster sitting in the dark pondering if your heroes would make a good snack, while in combat, is pretty much the definition of immediate danger.
wraithstrike wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Dude, read the original post. It was about taking 10 _to determine_ whether a PC was surprised for the surprise round. It was NOT about taking 10 while acting during the surprise round.
Sometimes you shouldn't post just based on the title of the thread.
I mentioned this alrady, and he claims that the perception check is made after the surprise round begins.
edited: for correctness Well, I guess him being wrong about that too shouldn't come as shock to pretty much anyone at this point.
Seriously, half the time it sounds like he's playing a completely different game.
Quote: I mentioned this alrady, and he claims that the perception check is made after the surprise round begins. He is more or less correct. Quoted above. Step 2, determining awareness, is most often the perception check. (In other circumstances it might be a sense motive check, or in really weird cases almost anything, like aknowledge history check to notice that one of these statues is the 8th of the 7 Kings of Myrnos)
BigNorseWolf wrote: Prawn wrote: As a DM, I ruled last night that perception checks for surprise had to be rolled, reasoning that surprise was a distraction.
The player said that taking 10 does not involve any intention, so he could take 10 even if he doesn't know he needs to be actively looking for something.
What do you guys think?
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
1 When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2 Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3 After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
4 Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5 When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
Note the order. Combat starts Then surprise is determined. If you are rolliing perception for a surprise round you are in combat and already have an initiative score. A monster sitting in the dark pondering if your heroes would make a good snack, while in combat, is pretty much the definition of immediate danger.
That depends entirely on the scenario, see SKR here.
In that scenario, the guard's perception roll occurs before combat, and without him even knowing he is being threatened. In fact, the perception roll is to detect the threat.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Prawn wrote: As a DM, I ruled last night that perception checks for surprise had to be rolled, reasoning that surprise was a distraction.
The player said that taking 10 does not involve any intention, so he could take 10 even if he doesn't know he needs to be actively looking for something.
What do you guys think?
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
1 When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2 Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3 After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
4 Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5 When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
Note the order. Combat starts Then surprise is determined. If you are rolliing perception for a surprise round you are in combat. A monster sitting in the dark pondering if your heroes would make a good snack, while in combat, is pretty much the definition of immediate danger.
Nothing says roll perception after initative is rolled.
What the rules say is that you may need to roll a perception check to determine who is or is not aware.
If you look at the "Surprise" section it actually mentions rolling for perception before the "Surprise round section is even mentioned".
In an actual game it goes like this.
Goblins are hiding.
PC's make reactive checks just like the would for anyone hiding, no matter if it is an enemy or scared creature. *
Those who are aware of the goblins get to act in the surprise round which begins when initiative is rolled, not before init is rolled for reasons I already explained in another post.
The order is NOT like this:
Goblins are hiding.
PC's make reactive checks just like the would for anyone hiding, no matter if it is an enemy or scared creature. *
Surprise round begins.
PC's get a new surprise round perception check.
Those who are aware of the goblins get to act in the surprise round which begins when initiative is rolled, not before init is rolled for reasons I already explained in another post.
*Remember perception includes distance modifiers so I might see the goblins 50 feet away from where I am, and they may not plan to attack at that time for <insert reasons>
Now are you saying I get a new perception check even though I see them?
Are you saying the surprise round starts when I am 50 feet away, and so I can not take 10, even though the GM's plans for them to attack, but they have not committed to it yet?
Wraithstrike wrote: Nothing says roll perception after initative is rolled. Dude, no. It literally lists an order that they happen in, with numbers. Everything says perception happens after initiative is rolled. You don't get to play epistemic nihilist in a rules discussion.
Even with that argument, its nuts to claim that you're not in immediate danger when the monster is about to pounce you.
How an ambush actually works is one of the vaguest area in the rules. But if the party is close enough to be rolling perception checks they are in immediate danger.
I am not saying what you think I am. You can't impose your rules interpretation on my rules interpretation and then claim that I'm the one with a discrepency.
How it works according to that list is
Goblins are hiding.
Surprise round begins
PC's make reactive checks just like the would for anyone hiding. An enemy is an immediate danger so they can't take 10. A scared creature is not so they can (so long as said creature doesn't explode when surprised or anything, limited time offer, do not use if nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant..)
How I have it work is
Goblins are hiding. Because NPCs always know when the party is coming. Or the area the pcs are traveling through always has something in the way. Or something.
The goblins declare they want to start the fight when the party is within X feet. (Probably 30 for their sneak attack)
Goblins roll stealth.
PCs get close enough to possibly see the goblins. They roll perception against the lowest adjusted for distance goblin.
Any PC making the check acts in the surprise round, if there is one.
Then take inits. Technically i'm supposed to do this first, but as everyone's mini is frozen in place, it really doesn't matter.
_ozy_, I don't see the relevance there.
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