Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
I'm quite confused as to what you're asking about or having a problem with.
You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about how things work.
1) You can never make iterative attacks with natural attacks. Each natural attack (not natural attack type but each individual natural attack) can be used only once.
2) If you had a bite and the claw mutations you could make 2 claw attacks and 1 bite attack each round.
3) If you had the claw mutation, the bite attack, and vestigial arms you would physical possess 3 arms with 3 claws. However, your extra arms doesn't grant extra attacks. You could still only make 2 claws and a bite. You could hold a weapon in the 3rd hand, or a potion, or something else. You could also make 1 weapon attack, a bite (at a -5 since combining with a weapon attack), and a claw (also at -5).
Primary and secondary natural attack types are defined in the section about natural attacks in general.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
In the Monster Codex for Goblins, at the bottom of the page there is an entry for making Mutant Goblins. One such goblin can have a number of mutations, including "Extra Arms", which functions as the Vestigial Limb discovery, and "Claws", which states that each hand grows claws and she gains a natural attack for each hand.
On top of that, even if you only assume that it would function with it's two existing hands, these natural attacks are not listed as primary or secondary, so along with a bite attack that a goblin can get in a multitude of ways, a Goblin with 2 claws and a Bite attack can only ever get a single natural attack, if I'm reading RAW correctly. No matter how much BAB it accrues or how many limbs it gets, it can never attack more than once with it's natural weapons.
Can somebody please correct me? I know this can't be how it works and would like some clarification.
When you make a full attack, you can make one attack with every natural weapon you have (provided they are not doing something else).
You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about how things work.
1) You can never make iterative attacks with natural attacks. Each natural attack (not natural attack type but each individual natural attack) can be used only once.
2) If you had a bite and the claw mutations you could make 2 claw attacks and 1 bite attack each round.
3) If you had the claw mutation, the bite attack, and vestigial arms you would physical possess 3 arms with 3 claws. However, your extra arms doesn't grant extra attacks. You could still only make 2 claws and a bite. You could hold a weapon in the 3rd hand, or a potion, or something else. You could also make 1 weapon attack, a bite (at a -5 since combining with a weapon attack), and a claw (also at -5).
Primary and secondary natural attack types are defined in the section about natural attacks in general.
...Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a
Natural weapons are not restricted by the primary/off-hand paradigm so if you had three claws on three arms you could take all three attacks even if one of the claws is on a vestigial arm.
Natural weapons are not restricted by the primary/off-hand paradigm so if you had three claws on three arms you could take all three attacks even if one of the claws is on a vestigial arm.
Here we go with this can of worms again.
That directly disagrees with the FAQ.
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Basically, the easiest way to think of it is imagine you didn't have a 3rd arm. You can do all that same stuff. The vestigial arm lets you hold extra items or change up your attack routine if that's your thing.
So if I have two claws and a bite, could I take an extra arm with a claw and do three claw attacks? Would that be a legal yet rule-manipulative way to do things?
Only your DM knows for sure.
Dethmunki, that is one of the least manipulative things I've seen suggested, particularly in regards to this issue. You pay an appropriate price to get 3 attacks normally, then sure, that doesn't mess with the balance much. The most I can imagine coming from that would be an extra +1 because you took weapon focus(claws).
Anyway, the general purpose of the vestigial arm discovery is to allow you a free hand to do things even if the rest are occupied. It is popular for dual wielding pistol builds, allowing you to reload without dropping any of your guns. It could allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon and still keep a wand at hand. It could allow you to use a reach weapon and still have an extra dagger for anyone that tries to get cute and come in close to you to avoid AoOs.
The vestigial arm has its uses...it is simply that getting more attacks is not one of them.
Thank you everyone. I think I'm beginning to understand this a little better.
One more thing though: I know having 4 arms to fire two two-handed weapons is a no go, but could I instead hold two two-handed weapons and fire one, then next round reload it and fire the other, without switching out/dropping any weapons? Or hold 4 one-handed firearms and fire all four single shots if I have 4 attacks with the appropriate BAB/TWF Feats?
Actually yes, you're not taking extra attacks that you wouldn't otherwise be granted.
So if you had a BAB of 6 and Improved TWF and 2 vestigial arms you could hold 4 pistols and fire all 4 using the attacks granted by BAB, imperatives, and TWF. Though, honestly you only need a single extra arm to effectively reload two weapons so that you can have a full rate of fire. The problem is that pretty much every method involves using expensive alchemical ammunition in conjunction with rapid reload to move the reload speed down to a free action.
But that problem exists no matter how many arms you have.
The mutant goblin template is for GMs to use so you will have to run all of this by him any way. If you are the GM just dont make Goblins that cause a TPK and you are good:)