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I don't like Damage Reduction. It's a pain to track - my group forgets it half the time until halfway through combat. And when we DO remember, the added math slows down the game. It's messy keeping track of what bonuses overcome what. And a vulnerability mechanic already exists to build that theme into a monster. That's my reasoning - you may disagree - but merit isn't the point of the thread.
How do I eliminate it? My first thought is just dump it and give all creatures with DR extra hit points equal to their DR multiplied by 5. Then they have a vulnerability to whatever overcame their DR, like cold iron for example.
Help me think through ramifications, please. How messy would this get in terms of other rules and unforseen consequences?
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One way to go would be 5E where a creature just takes 1/2 damage from particular effects. Works for ER too.
One Idea I had I called damage threshold, where monsters got a pool of HP that refreshed on there turn. A creature with DR 5 might have a DT of 10 that PCs had to beat that round to do regular HP damage and on the monster's next action their DT would be back and the PCs would have to beat the DT down again,
How would this "vulnerability" work? Without knowing that, it's hard to predict. If each hit deals, e.g., +5 damage, then you get weird interactions with things like smiting.
Overall, it seems a lot simpler for the DM to just train him/herself to remember to look at the "DR" entry in the stat block.
Wouldn't you just have the same problem of forgetting to apply the vulnerability if you're already forgetting to apply DR?
I'd treat it like the Swarm rules. Much simpler. Don't have the right weapon? You're screwed. Do have the right weapon? It's screwed.
Everything gets reduced down to these four categories:
No damage
Half damage
Full damage.
1.5 normal damage.
For example a Vampire, instead of having DR, would take no damage from regular weapons. It would take 1/2 damage from wooden piercing weapons. It would take full damage from magic and silver. It would take 1.5 normal damage from Fire and Holy sources.
Or something like that.
I'd prefer saying that weapons do half damage unless they're silver, cold iron, etc. If the monster is still too squishy, give them more AC or max hit points.
@Kirth, by vulnerability I meant the existing rule for elements, like a white dragon is vulnerable to fire. It's 50% more damage from that source.
Just half damage for non-vulnerable sources of damage would be easier, but mathematically harsher than DR at high levels when you're doing like 50-100 damage.
Just doing DR would be simpler in terms of rules messing, but in this case I actually want it gone.
If I were just going to rewrite DR I would change it to something like temporary hit points. So, if your weapon doesn't bypass the DR, it takes away from the temp hit points instead. Your DR hit points would be equal to the normal DR value times your hit die. These hit points would regenerate at a rate of 1 per minute.
This way DR can be bypassed by anyone if you take long enough. And 1 big hit isn't superior to lots of small hits.
It's just not a mechanic I enjoy. As I said, my group always forgets it and then tries to retroactively apply it. And with iterative attacks and such, I just find it messy. Plus, I'm fooling with a magic item patch that would also be lots cleaner without DR. I really just think there are simpler ways to portray a creature's toughness. As I mentioned in the OP, this is not a debate of the merit of the decision. The decision is made. I want DR out. I'm asking for help thinking through the best way to do it. If you think it's great as it is, cool.
Doomed Hero has a nice, simple idea. It may make certain monsters a bit too tough, so it may be best to use such creatures sparingly.
I feel your pain. I don't have problems with normal DR, yet GURPS had ablative armor that acted like a sort of DR and temporary hit point pool. If you exceeded the DR, any excess damage subtracted the DR total before being applied to hit points. For example, a DR 10 being was hit with 12 points of damage. The 10 points would be absorbed by DR, while two points would lower the DR to 8. The next blow for 12 points would have 8 points stopped by DR, while the remaining damage would drop the DR by 4 more points. Repeat until all DR is gone, then hit points are reduced (with no DR left to minimize damage).
It was an interesting system, yet could be problematic to track. Add on that normal DR could also exist on the same being / object. just saying, it could be worse.
I don't like Damage Reduction. It's a pain to track - my group forgets it half the time until halfway through combat. And when we DO remember, the added math slows down the game. It's messy keeping track of what bonuses overcome what. And a vulnerability mechanic already exists to build that theme into a monster. That's my reasoning - you may disagree - but merit isn't the point of the thread.
How do I eliminate it? My first thought is just dump it and give all creatures with DR extra hit points equal to their DR multiplied by 5. Then they have a vulnerability to whatever overcame their DR, like cold iron for example.
Help me think through ramifications, please. How messy would this get in terms of other rules and unforseen consequences?
Just throwing this out there. We had a similar problem with Spell Resistance - it was an entire additional mechanic that cumulatively slowed down game play a great deal, and made magic almost randomly effective... so, we ditched it. In its place we simply said that every creature whom has Spell Resistance instead gets +4 to save vs. spells and SLA's. Its worked out beautifully.
Perhaps you could do something similar - every creature who would normally get DR instead gains +4 to AC unless that creature is attacked by whatever its vulnerable thing is. Its not perfect, but it damn sure makes life easier.
I like that SR idea, Wiggz. That's another mechanic that I think adds nothing to anyone's fun. This is a game--it should all be fun.
Your DR suggestion is kind of exactly what I'm thinking of doing, except that DR is essentially a hit point modifier, right? It adjusts the hp lost to an attack. Bumping AC would make attacks less likely to do damage, when the mechanic it's replacing isn't about lessening attacks, but lessening damage. Thus, my original idea of just increasing monster hp by DR x 5. Monsters with DR would be proportionally tougher while taking vulnerability damage (x1.5) from attacks by their vulnerability (e.g. cold iron).
From an RP perspective, I prefer that image better, too. Rather than the regular sword not doing as much damage as you think it should (which is just disappointing), the cold iron sword really made the thing howl (which is really exciting). I don't know. To-MAY-to, to-MAH-to, I guess.
I don't like Damage Reduction. It's a pain to track - my group forgets it half the time until halfway through combat. And when we DO remember, the added math slows down the game. It's messy keeping track of what bonuses overcome what. And a vulnerability mechanic already exists to build that theme into a monster. That's my reasoning - you may disagree - but merit isn't the point of the thread.
How do I eliminate it? My first thought is just dump it and give all creatures with DR extra hit points equal to their DR multiplied by 5. Then they have a vulnerability to whatever overcame their DR, like cold iron for example.
Help me think through ramifications, please. How messy would this get in terms of other rules and unforseen consequences?
Just throwing this out there. We had a similar problem with Spell Resistance - it was an entire additional mechanic that cumulatively slowed down game play a great deal, and made magic almost randomly effective... so, we ditched it. In its place we simply said that every creature whom has Spell Resistance instead gets +4 to save vs. spells and SLA's. Its worked out beautifully.
Perhaps you could do something similar - every creature who would normally get DR instead gains +4 to AC unless that creature is attacked by whatever its vulnerable thing is. Its not perfect, but it damn sure makes life easier.
I like this. It fits the fiction where normal bullets seem to miss the werewolf because they are not silver. Mundane weapons that miss pass harmlessly through the creatures flesh.
Yes, DR can be a pain to keep track of at times.
I find the easiest probably is to do as suggested above, if you want simplicity.
No damage, 1/2 damage, full damage, and more damage (1.5X or whatever).
You still have to remember what the DR is for though.
I don't like Damage Reduction. It's a pain to track - my group forgets it half the time until halfway through combat. And when we DO remember, the added math slows down the game. It's messy keeping track of what bonuses overcome what. And a vulnerability mechanic already exists to build that theme into a monster. That's my reasoning - you may disagree - but merit isn't the point of the thread.
How do I eliminate it? My first thought is just dump it and give all creatures with DR extra hit points equal to their DR multiplied by 5. Then they have a vulnerability to whatever overcame their DR, like cold iron for example.
Help me think through ramifications, please. How messy would this get in terms of other rules and unforseen consequences?
From what you are saying it seems like you don't like the way the math work. Have you considered just going about the math differently? Instead of subtracting the DR from the damage you just immediately heal any non-bypassing attacks after a single characterhas done all their attacks by their number of hits x DR?
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If I were to change DR, I'd go with halving/negating damage that doesn't have "X". I think DR is meant to model monsters that can't be hurt with ordinary weapons, that you need something special for.
Halving/negating also has the added effect that it's a bit easier on the thousand-cuts 2WF guys and somewhat slows the "just hit harder" 2H crowd.