[Unchained] Alternate Crafting Rules

Rules Questions

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Wonderful new system!

Questions:

1-Can someone voluntarily increase crafting difficulty? If not, how can we address base progress per day for extremely simple masterwork items like slings? (300gp masterwork component would mean 300 days to craft? Even good daily rolls wouldn't yield much more than a daily 5 - 6 gp progress after quintupling result...)

2-Can helpers take 10? Ten unskilled laborers yielding +20 to the craft roll? what is the point of hiring trained laborers? Can they just aid your check or can they provide their own daily progress values?

3-special raw material cost such as flawless steel: how do we figure out the base material cost of anv item? Is there a simple multiplier we that can be figured out?

Thanks!

Yeah, the rules still suffer from the fact that simple/expensive items take longer to create than complex/expensive items for high skill modifiers.

Progress with a 45 craft skill check:

extremely simple: 0.5gp * 9 = 4.5 gp/day
simple: 1gp * 8 = 8gp/day
normal: 2gp * 7 = 14gp/day
complex: 4gp * 6 = 24gp/day
intricate: 8gp * 5 = 40gp/day
very intricate: 16gp * 4 = 64gp/day
extremely intricate: 32*3 = 96gp/day

To avoid this from happening, the rules would need to double progress for each +5 over the DC (x2, x4, x8, x16) instead of the 'normal' Pathfinder progression (x2, x3, x4, ...) in which case all of the above values would go to 128gp/day.

Of course, that would mean you could make cheap items extremely (too?) quickly unless you changed the base rate.

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I think an even simpler fix is to roll craft and cross reference the table to see how much gp worth you crafted that day...

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

If you roll higher than the highest dc listed in table you add 32gp progress for every 5 you exceed that dc... excluding traps and poisons of course

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

The other option would have been to scale the masterwork component down for simple items and up for intricate ones.

So 300gp for complex is the base (i.e. a longsword is normal and becomes complex by way of MW...)

Perhaps normal MW should be 150gp?

Simple MW 75gp?

Then intricate, very intricate and extremely intricate MW components become 600, 1200 and 2400 respectively? Or cap it at 300?

This would push MW exotic weapons by an extra 300gp...

Kinda makes sense to me... you'd have mw clubs and slings for 75gp plus cost of weapon; MW daggers and other simple weapons at 150gp plus cost of weapon... yesssssss.....

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I think i might go with roll craft and cross ref table for amount per day done... as long as you're hitting min DC required it's amazingly simple to keep track

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
1-Can someone voluntarily increase crafting difficulty? If not, how can we address base progress per day for extremely simple masterwork items like slings? (300gp masterwork component would mean 300 days to craft? Even good daily rolls wouldn't yield much more than a daily 5 - 6 gp progress after quintupling result...)

The masterwork component is DC 20. CRB p93.

Masterwork Sling = Free sling + 300gp MW component.

Later that page, it states:
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you’ll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
2-Can helpers take 10? Ten unskilled laborers yielding +20 to the craft roll? what is the point of hiring trained laborers? Can they just aid your check or can they provide their own daily progress values?

No. Aid another cannot Take-10. CRB p86.

/cevah

Cevah wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
1-Can someone voluntarily increase crafting difficulty? If not, how can we address base progress per day for extremely simple masterwork items like slings? (300gp masterwork component would mean 300 days to craft? Even good daily rolls wouldn't yield much more than a daily 5 - 6 gp progress after quintupling result...)

The masterwork component is DC 20. CRB p93.

Masterwork Sling = Free sling + 300gp MW component.

Later that page, it states:
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you’ll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
2-Can helpers take 10? Ten unskilled laborers yielding +20 to the craft roll? what is the point of hiring trained laborers? Can they just aid your check or can they provide their own daily progress values?

No. Aid another cannot Take-10. CRB p86.

/cevah

That's the standard rules for crafting. Knight is talking about the Unchained version, which is different. I'm not sure they're better, tho. Especially when trying to make that masterwork item. In those rules, DC is set by how complicated the item is. (Which for weapons is a little arbitrary--how's a siangham more complex than a greatsword?) Masterwork bumps it up one category, so a greataxe (DC 15 normally) becomes DC 20. And at 4gp a day standard for that, your axe will be ready in ... 320 / 4 = 80 days assuming normal rolls. And that your 2x gain days are offset by your 0x gain days.

And no more taking 10 on crafting either? Ouch.

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Again, I think i might go with roll craft and cross ref table for amount per day done... this way if I hit the highest DC I can build my MW sling at a rate of 32gp worth per day, instead of the moronic 1gp progress per day...

Edit: the new system has a definite advantage over the CRB craft--> if you're crafting MW daggers, slings, clubs, quarterstaff, etc., you can never flub your roll and waste your resources as the DC is much lower than the CRB DC 20...

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

also, the Unchained craft is way faster.

A DC 20 MW longsword, say you roll 20 --> 20 x 20 = 400 sp worth per week (i.e. 40gp per week)

Unchained: 8gp / day x 5 days = 40gp per week (same)

however if you roll 25 on craft --> 25 x 20 = 500 sp = 50 gp per week

Unchained: 16gp / day x 5 days = 80 gp per week

etc.

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

...also, anyone notice the 20 ranks craft skill unlock? you can now craft magic items without any feat and without any spellcaster levels:

featless magic item creation with no spellcaster level required:
20 Ranks: You can craft magic armor, magic weapons,
magic rings, and wondrous items that fall under your
category of Craft using the normal Craft rules.

Now, if I was a designer, smart money would be design a feat with Signature Skill feat or Rogue's Edge class feature as a prereq, that lets you use all skill unlocks as if you had 20 ranks in it (and with a super boost ability when you *do* reach level 15 and 20...)

That would make rogues awesomer, and actually make the Signature Skill feat worthwhile for non-rogues (like a fighter or barbarian who wants to craft his own magic weapons at 1/4 cost... the two feats needed would balance out the cheap magic weapons advantage...)

I'm having a really hard time understanding the special raw materials. Like, I understand that using them is supposed to modify your craft checks (such as making them crafted faster or less likely to fail), but how do I determine how much I need? The price is only given per pound, but that doesn't seem right. For example, an adamantine rapier weighs half as much as an adamantine scimitar; these two are supposed to cost roughly the same, but under this system would you need half as much adamantine for the rapier, thus making it half as expensive to craft?

Shouldn't these special materials just be price modifiers? I don't understand why the costs are per pound.

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

also, the Unchained craft is way faster.

A DC 20 MW longsword, say you roll 20 --> 20 x 20 = 400 sp worth per week (i.e. 40gp per week)

Unchained: 8gp / day x 5 days = 40gp per week (same)

however if you roll 25 on craft --> 25 x 20 = 500 sp = 50 gp per week

Unchained: 16gp / day x 5 days = 80 gp per week

etc.

That would be a DC 20 for a MW longsword in Alternate Craft, so 4gp/day x 5 days = 20 gp per week. If you roll 25 it doubles to 8gp/day x 5 days = 40.

It's actually slower, except for the higher DCs, I believe.

EDIT: Although the normal craft is actually based on 7 days a week, I believe...

An additional question on the same topic.

What is the effect of the new crafting rules on Master Alchemist feat?

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

also, the Unchained craft is way faster.

A DC 20 MW longsword, say you roll 20 --> 20 x 20 = 400 sp worth per week (i.e. 40gp per week)

Unchained: 8gp / day x 5 days = 40gp per week (same)

however if you roll 25 on craft --> 25 x 20 = 500 sp = 50 gp per week

Unchained: 16gp / day x 5 days = 80 gp per week

etc.

That would be a DC 20 for a MW longsword in Alternate Craft, so 4gp/day x 5 days = 20 gp per week. If you roll 25 it doubles to 8gp/day x 5 days = 40.

It's actually slower, except for the higher DCs, I believe.

EDIT: Although the normal craft is actually based on 7 days a week, I believe...

A MW Longsword is complex item therefore 8gp per week... which doubles to 16gp/week if you exceed craft DC by 5...

Which is why in my campaign I just use the Craft skill check result and cross reference the table to tell the player how much he crafted that day; much simpler, and much faster when your Craft modifier is high. I've also made the following modifications to Alternate Craft: (MW simple weapons are cheaper!)

Skills: Alternate Crafting Rules in effect (see unchained p.72-76) with the following modification - craft roll determines progress per day not item complexity (only thing you use complexity for is to figure out min DC). Also, masterwork items now cost less or more, depending on their complexity, as follows: (examples provided below; please consult unchained book for specific items)
Extremely simple (no MW component available)
Simple - 75gp (MW Sling)
Normal - 150gp (MW Dagger)
Complex - 300gp (MW Longsword)
Intricate - 600gp (MW Bastard Sword)
Very intricate - 1200gp (MW Siege Weapons)
Extremely intricate - 2400gp (MW Cannon)

One way to speed things up: combine Unchained Crafting with the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign. Take the "Smithy" building from Downtime:

Smithy wrote:

Create 18 Goods, 1 Influence, 17 Labor (730 gp)

Rooms 1 Forge, 1 Office, 2 Storages

An armorsmith, blacksmith, or weaponsmith.

With the Rooms listed the PC gains a +14 to earning GP or Goods. Earn a bunch of Goods and spend them; they grant +1 bonuses to your crafting (Max +5). The Forge also counts as Masterwork Tools for another +2. Tack on some trained helpers adding Aid Another bonuses (you can have 2 of them in the Forge with you) and you've jacked up your crafting output.

Figuring you've built a Smithy for yourself by level 2 and you've maxed out your Craft: Weaponsmithing you've got at least a +5 from your own skill, you've spent 5 Goods for another +5, you've got 2 Aid Another bonuses for +4 and the Masterwork Tools bonus of the Forge gives you another +2. That's +16 on your roll.

If you can't take 10 on your crafting roll you've got a 17-in-20 chance for success. If you pull off an average roll of 10 on a d20 you're beating your DC by 5 so about half of your crafting days will get some kind of multiplier.

Mechalibur wrote:

I'm having a really hard time understanding the special raw materials. Like, I understand that using them is supposed to modify your craft checks (such as making them crafted faster or less likely to fail), but how do I determine how much I need? The price is only given per pound, but that doesn't seem right. For example, an adamantine rapier weighs half as much as an adamantine scimitar; these two are supposed to cost roughly the same, but under this system would you need half as much adamantine for the rapier, thus making it half as expensive to craft?

Shouldn't these special materials just be price modifiers? I don't understand why the costs are per pound.

I was wondering the same thing. Does anyone have any thoughts on what this should be?