Yes, it does stack; or no it does not? I recall there was a change to the size stacking FAQ, or an additional entry on the matter.
In any case, I don't recall what the final word was, or if people had even agreed on an interpretation.
Virtual size changes don't stack, and since spiked added a virtual size change, it doesn't stack with Bashing anymore.
==Aelryinth
|
The answer is no, because there is nothing *TO* stack. A spiked shield is a weapon of a certain size in its own right, not a change in size in any way. (see table 6-4 CRB, it has its own listing.) The fact that it is described in fluff text as deals damage as if it were designed for one size category larger is immaterial. There is no effect being applied at that point. A spiked Heavy Shield as a medium weapon is listed as 1d6 damage.
It somewhat negates the "cheese" (if that is the true core of your complaint) of getting to wield the "1 size larger weapon" without having to pay some feat or magical cost, by changing the damage type to piercing which is the most often blocked by various DR.
You apply the single best "Effective" size increase (ie bashing), to get to 2d6, and then apply the single best "Actual" size increase (ie enlarge person) to work your way to 3d6 damage, per the FAQ.
|
|
They never did. Bashing is a shield enhancement that can be applied to a light or heavy shield. Shield spikes are not a shield and even if they were, they are not either of the types allowed.
That is the common misconception. That the spikes are somehow separate from the shield ( or armor) The spikes make it both a shield and a martial weapon at the same time, (hence the spiked shield entry in the weapon chart, not shield spikes) with the same pool of +5 to enhancements and +5 to Special abilities to split over weapon and shield categories. Yes +2 armor and +3 hit/damage is possible (as well as the maximum enhancement bonus) or until you spend a lot of feats to get to shield master and get to use the shield armor enhancements as weapon hit/damage enhancements as well. The existence of that feat progression only makes sense if there is one pool.
Don't get me started on the abuses of having the extra slots to place magical abilities that having the spikes be separate implies. Everyone would be walking around in spiked armor AND shields.
|
|
They never did. Bashing is a shield enhancement that can be applied to a light or heavy shield. Shield spikes are not a shield and even if they were, they are not either of the types allowed.That is the common misconception. That the spikes are somehow separate from the shield ( or armor) The spikes make it both a shield and a martial weapon at the same time, (hence the spiked shield entry in the weapon chart, not shield spikes) with the same pool of +5 to enhancements and +5 to Special abilities to split over weapon and shield categories. Yes +2 armor and +3 hit/damage is possible (as well as the maximum enhancement bonus) or until you spend a lot of feats to get to shield master and get to use the shield armor enhancements as weapon hit/damage enhancements as well. The existence of that feat progression only makes sense if there is one pool.
Don't get me started on the abuses of having the extra slots to place magical abilities that having the spikes be separate implies. Everyone would be walking around in spiked armor AND shields.
I wrote this without re-reading the armor spikes section again. Apparently armor spikes are separate, but shield spikes are not.. Mea culpa. The wording is not consistent between the two.
|
As the author of the original FAQ request that was answered, the two specific examples I used were shield spikes + bashing, and Improved Natural Attack + strong jaw, as they all include the same language (as if X size categories larger).
To answer the OP's question in this thread, "No", they do not stack.
|
Contributor
|
A link to what?
...or...
I assume he's waiting for a post saying that the specific components being discussed won't stack.
|
|
There was no specific Dev comment, or anything of that nature, to Shield Spikes, and the Bashing property.
I asked a general question about X (citing Y and Z as specific examples).
A general response was given (citing the wording of all things similar to Y and Z).
Z did not need its own, specific, separate, response.
In fact, in order for Z to be excluded from the response, it would actually *need* to be called out, specifically.
Not the other way around.
|
|
The FAQ mentions Bashing, but in regards to how it interacts with things like Enlarge Person.Which is stupid, really. Enlarge Person just makes you and your equipment bigger, it's no different from if a Large [for example] creature happens to be wielding the same thing.
Indeed, it is no different.
Bashing works with Enlarge Person.
What, exactly, is "stupid" about that?
The FAQ in question is:
Is that the only one dealing with size increases? I know I saw two distinctly different entries, or else they updated the entry at some point.
|
Is that the only one dealing with size increases? I know I saw two distinctly different entries, or else they updated the entry at some point.The FAQ in question is:
It was updated on March 27th. Bashing and Spiked shields no longer stack per the new FAQ.
However, if you still want a 2d6 shield bash, it's possible.
Start with a Large Size Heavy Shield. Use the Shield Trained Trait to treat heavy shields as light weapons. Thus the Large Size Shield is one handed.
Since Actual Size and virtual size stack, you can use your large size bashing shield for 2d6 with a -2 penalty. Then when you get Shield Master, there is no penalty.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
PDT declares that shield master feat was poorly worded, thus closing loophole that people were exploiting by pretending to not be able to comprehend the feat.
People react by saying "MRATIALS CANT HAVE NICE THINGS, AMIRITE".
News at 11.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The reason I am doubtful of Spiked Shields not stacking with Bashing, is that Shield Spikes, change the base damage, and are not an "effect".
The FAQ calls out "various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice".
So, it would have to be ruled that Shield Spikes are an "effect".
Surely, one could at least consider, why this would be different.
The reason I am doubtful of Spiked Shields not stacking with Bashing, is that Shield Spikes, change the base damage, and are not an "effect".
The FAQ calls out "various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice".
So, it would have to be ruled that Shield Spikes are an "effect".
Surely, one could at least consider, why this would be different.
Monks Unarmed damage increase is an "effect" as per the FCT FAQ. This wouldn't be any different, would it?
|
|
The reason I am doubtful of Spiked Shields not stacking with Bashing, is that Shield Spikes, change the base damage, and are not an "effect".
The FAQ calls out "various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice".
So, it would have to be ruled that Shield Spikes are an "effect".
Surely, one could at least consider, why this would be different.
I feel that my comment earlier covers this, but if you think it doesn't, let's try another angle.
Is it your opinion that "text trumps table"? There are multiple instances in many rulebooks where there is a conflict between what's listed in a table, and how that same thing is described in text.
Spiked Shields are listed in the weapons table as martial piercing weapons with a set damage dice and critical modifier. If they were described nowhere else, that table would become our only source for their rules.
But we have text that further describes what that table really means: "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you".
The section I bolded is exactly what this FAQ addresses: "as if they were one size category larger than they actually are". And Shield Spikes were one of the two examples I used in my FAQ request for that exact reason.
I don't understand the significance of your emphasis on the word "effect". Spikes clearly seem like a game effect to me, one that results in an effective size increase. Just as Improved Natural Attack is an "effect" on a creature's claws. Both are equally covered by this FAQ.
That's a class ability, that has been ruled an effect.
Are you implying that the monk's unarmed damage increase does not stack with things like Stonefist Gloves or pretty much anything else for that matter? If so, I really don't believe that was the intent of the developers. Such items are basically meant for monks and other martial artists!
Monks Unarmed damage increase is an "effect" as per the FCT FAQ. This wouldn't be any different, would it?I have just lost the last vestiges of faith I ever had in Paizo's sense of game balance.
I doubt they are even aware of the potential interaction of their two disparate rulings, much less had any intent to change the way the game works in such a drastic fashion.
|
|
That's a class ability, that has been ruled an effect.Are you implying that the monk's unarmed damage increase does not stack with things like Stonefist Gloves or pretty much anything else for that matter? If so, I really don't believe that was the intent of the developers. Such items are basically meant for monks and other martial artists!
Those gloves would increase the effective size of unarmed strikes. They would not stack with The Brother of the Seal's Hands of Stone Ability, the Strong Jaw Spell, or anything else that treated unarmed strikes as if they were one size larger.
I'm well aware of that, Imbicatus. It just seemed to me that blackbloodtroll was saying that any one of those things you mentioned would not stack with the monk's improved unarmed damage class ability (which, to my knowledge, says nothing about size).
|
|
They stack with the Monk's unarmed damage, for two reasons:
1) That's what they state. The function of the item is quite clear. A Monk puts them on, and their damage increases. I see no other way to interpret the text. When choosing if an item has a function, or no function at all, I'm going to go with the former.
2) The Monk's unarmed damage has nothing to do with "effective size" or any of the other examples phrased in the new FAQ. If the Monk's ability stated something to the effect of "Deals unarmed damage as if X sizes larger than usual", then it would fall under the scope of this FAQ.
It doesn't, so it doesn't.
They MAY be arguing that effects that increase the monk's UA damage (such as a monk's belt) don't stack with size increases, or with one another (likely the latter).
Which kind of makes sense. a Large Monk starts at a higher level then a medium one, but really, the damage is coming from ki, and they have the same amount...their increased damage should be equal at higher levels, the Large guy just starts higher.
But no, otherwise. The advancement of a monk's UA damage has nothing to do with size increases. Stonefist Gloves should work fine.
==Aelryinth
I'm well aware of that, Imbicatus. It just seemed to me that blackbloodtroll was saying that any one of those things you mentioned would not stack with the monk's improved unarmed damage class ability (which, to my knowledge, says nothing about size).
I think what BBT is saying is that the shield isn't an effect. What it's doing is like getting a large sword that has a better base damage than a medium sword. What it's doing isn't the same as the two effects than add to the base damage as if it was bigger. The reason it IS bigger. In the shields case it's physically improved to deal more damage into a new base form and not improved by an external enchantment/effect that makes it act as if it was bigger.
So if I buy an item called a "spiked light shield" from the weapons table, can I make it bashing?
I didn't change its size or apply an effect: I just bought a single mundane item.
It won't work that way the same way Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw aren't going to stack, Gwen.
INA actually makes the natural attack BIGGER. It's still a virtual size effect, it really and truly is 'normal' all the time, but if you add Strong Jaw, they don't stack...it still operates off the base.
So, yes, you can add Bashing to a Spiked Shield. No, it doesn't stack with the spikes. They add a virtual +1, Bashing adds a virtual +2. So Instead of 2-12 you'd have a 1-8 dmg Spiked Shield...still an improvement, just not as good.
==Aelryinth
Ah, it's possible I misunderstood then.
|
|
How about a Impact Heavy Spiked Shield? A heavy Spiked Shield has an entry on the weapons table and it is not light, making it a valid option for Impact.
The problem is that a Spiked Shield is an independent mundane entry on the weapon table, but the description makes things needlessly complicated by adding size increases.
A spiked shield should be a separate weapon from a normal shield entirely.
If you take a 1d6 club, and hammer nails through the end you do 1d8 damage. You didn't make it act as if it were once size larger, you made it into a morning star.
So if I buy an item called a "spiked light shield" from the weapons table, can I make it bashing?
I didn't change its size or apply an effect: I just bought a single mundane item.
This is the thinking I was talking about. Some people think that there should be an exception for things like the spiked shield because they aren't really a size change but an easy way to explain what the base damage is. An added spike didn't make the shield grow in size...
If it didn't include the 'as if it were one size larger' language, you'd have a point.
I think they were specifically trying to nerf the 2-12 x/20 off-hand weapon, more then anything.
Keep in mind you can always house rule that Shield and Spiked Shield are indeed two separate items.
However, you then have to actually MAKE them separate items. As it is, you can add spikes to an existing shield...that's the source of the virtual size increase.
There are no rules, for instance, that adding spikes to a club makes it a Morningstar. You get a club with spikes, that the DM will probably rule also does piercing damage. To make a Morningstar, you actually have to MAKE one from scratch.
==Aelryinth
It won't work that way the same way Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw aren't going to stack, Gwen.
INA actually makes the natural attack BIGGER. It's still a virtual size effect, it really and truly is 'normal' all the time, but if you add Strong Jaw, they don't stack...it still operates off the base.
So, yes, you can add Bashing to a Spiked Shield. No, it doesn't stack with the spikes. They add a virtual +1, Bashing adds a virtual +2. So Instead of 2-12 you'd have a 1-8 dmg Spiked Shield...still an improvement, just not as good.
==Aelryinth
It seems really wrong that an FAQ about spells and effects would apply to a single mundane item that I can purchase from a gear table without alteration. It would never occur to me that those two things have anything to do with each other.
If it didn't include the 'as if it were one size larger' language, you'd have a point.
I think they were specifically trying to nerf the 2-12 x/20 off-hand weapon, more then anything.
Keep in mind you can always house rule that Shield and Spiked Shield are indeed two separate items.
However, you then have to actually MAKE them separate items. As it is, you can add spikes to an existing shield...that's the source of the virtual size increase.
There are no rules, for instance, that adding spikes to a club makes it a Morningstar. You get a club with spikes, that the DM will probably rule also does piercing damage. To make a Morningstar, you actually have to MAKE one from scratch.
==Aelryinth
For me, the wording was just an easy way to give the new damage and not with the foresight that it would be counted as the same kind of thing as magical effect that increase size.
As to 'nerf the 2-12 x/20 off-hand weapon, you can have a estoc (2d4 (crit 18-20) with effortless lace in your offhand so it's a pretty useless nerf...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So if I buy an item called a "spiked light shield" from the weapons table, can I make it bashing?
I didn't change its size or apply an effect: I just bought a single mundane item.
You bought a mundane light shield with mundane spikes.
You can make it Bashing, but as per the FAQ, it will overlap the effect of the mundane spikes.
Edit: you can't actually purchase a spiked light shield from the weapons table.
It has no price listed.