GM'ing a Kingmaker game online and last session the characters levelled up to 3rd. Custom classes are okay so long as I balance them, but as they had been changing their characters around for a while I said that any changes would have to be finalized by next session, as we would be moving forwards from there. One player who had previously played a Broodmaster, came up with the following custom summoner 'archetype' drawn from the story summoner archetype (think Yu-Gi-Oh). First, you have 54 cards, harrow cards to be exact. The cards are split into 6 categories (one for each stat) and there are 9 cards per category, one for each of the alignments. He has proposed to further subdivide the cards to elements (fire, earth, water and air). NG and NE are water, CG and CE are fire, LG and LE are air, and LN and CN are earth. Additionally dex, wis, and cha are evil, while str, con, and int are good. The element sections would add damage resistance and added damage to the primary attack and the alignment would add damage as well. He gave the example of the wanderer card: NG of int, so your eidolon gains DR/good. Said that there were then 5 eidolon possibilities: quadruped (acid), biped (fire), serpentine (air), aquatic (water), and fey (true neutral). Resistances can be bumped into immunities via evolution points, and more eidolons come into play the more cards are drawn. All stats are halved for each card in play however, minimum size diminutive and stat bonus 0 unless it's negative due to size. The summoner also loses his spells (except for summon monster ability and cantrips) and instead uses cards as spells. Each of the 54 harrow cards is a different spell from all the spell lists however once the spells have been chosen for each card they can't be changed unless you write over it like a scroll. Once the card is used it can't be used again until the spell/eidolon is dismissed. This conversion is intended to create an interesting level of play amongst eidolon choice and creative use of cards. Basically I want your balancing this (admittedly massive) change in class. Ideas?
Sorry, a slight bump with an update - some repetition as I wanted to clarify some stuff.
So I have a guy who wants to make his own archetype for the summoner that is compatible with the story summoner but has more Yu-Gi-Oh additions. Basically he gets a tarot deck of 54 cards. The cards are split into 6 categories (one for each stat) and there are 9 cards per category, one for each of the alignments. He has proposed to further subdivide the cards to elements (fire, earth, water and air). NG and NE are water, CG and CE are fire, LG and LE are air, and LN and CN are earth. Additionally dex, wis, and cha are evil, while str, con, and int are good. He has the card names on a spreadsheet, along with the element, stat, and alignment. Additionally he wants to use this deck for a variant spell-casting system. Cantrips are normal in terms of how they work (spells known and all that) but the first to sixth level spells are different. He wants to have all his available spells in the deck, so he's got a list of all the summoner spells of 1st level and has organized them into the deck of cards and noted which spell goes with what card on the spreadsheet. Because there are only 35 or so summoner spells, he's repeated a few choice spells throughout the deck. Basically the way it works is he has a number of cards in his hand equal to his spells per day (which is four right now). Other than cantrips he can only use the spells he has in his hand, and after a card is used it is reshuffled back into the deck and a new card is drawn. He is allowed to play more than his spells per day, but loses hit points for each additional spell cast. The hit points lost are equal to the level of the spell squared. As for eidolons, he has five full strength eidolons, although they can't all be in play without repercussions. Each eidolon is elementally themed, and can only be summoned by playing the matching card (fire, air, earth, water, and true neutral is fey). Summoning an eidolon does not count as casting a spell, so the eidolon would be summoned, the card reshuffled, and another one drawn without penalty. Additional eidolons can be played, however hit points, attack bonuses, and the total damage per hit is affected proportionally. For these three stats, they are always equal to their normal number over the number of eidolons in play, so if there are five eidolons, those three stats are divided by five. Additionally he wants to sacrifice feats for the eidolons in exchange for elemental damage and resistances. The resistance would be for a corresponding element, and would be equal to the hit dice of the eidolon. The elemental damage would also correspond to the eidolon's element, and would be an additional dice on all attacks equal to the eidolon's hit dice. He wanted to try and balance some of it out so I think there was something about whenever he dismissed an eidolon it got all of its hit points back, but he lost health equal to half of the evolution points of the eidolon. If the eidolon dies then he loses health equal to the evolution points of the eidolon. At this moment his eidolons get max hit-points for their first three hit dice, and then roll for it afterwards. He's also using the story-kin eidolon and summoner's arcana from the story summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner/archetypes/paiz o---summoner-archetypes/story-summoner-summoner-archetype) - btw, how do you put a link into one of those blue 'here' buttons on this message board? He isn't using the evolve base form from the story summoner archetype but is still losing transposition. What I'm asking for is advice on how to make this work in terms of game balance while still retaining some of the flavour, as I think this is probably unbalanced. It's not just a Yu-Gi-Oh themed summoner as he got the original idea from (http://joshcorpuz85.deviantart.com/art/Beacon-The-Seer-485507747) but it started to turn out that way. Thoughts?
I've also posted this in the home-brew section (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s9te?YuGiOh-Summoner) if you think that's more appropriate.
Alright, I'm going to try and revamp the wall of text into something readable (courtesy of Oceanshieldwolf)
The first change to the character is the card deck.
54 Cards:
split into 6 different stats (str, dex, etc)
each stat has nine cards, one for each alignment
cards are further grouped into elements based on alignment
- NG and NE are water
- CG and CE are fire
- LG and LE are air
- LN and CN are earth.
- N is 'fey'
Then there is spell stuff he wants to change, cantrips are the same, all other spells are as follows:
Each of the 54 cards is listed on a spreadsheet with the relevant stat, alignment, and element, as well as an additional column for associated spell.
For any of the spell levels he can cast, he can associate a spell with a card. As he is level 3, he has access to first level spells (and cantrips, which are normal). Therefore of the 35 or so first level spells available to a summoner a card can be associated with each of them, and multiple cards can be associated with the same spell.
At any time he can have no more cards in his hand then he has spells per day (which is four right now). Except for cantrips he can only use the associated spells he has in his hand. After the associated card is used it is reshuffled back into the deck, which frees up a spot in his hand for another card.
He is allowed to play more than his spells per day, but loses hit points for each additional spell cast. The hit points lost are equal to the level of the spell squared.
Eidolons have been changed dramatically, with the following differences.
He has five different eidolons, themed to match each of the four elements + fey.
Eidolons are summoned by playing a card that matches their element (or is a fey card). Summoning uses up the card as normal, but does not count as casting a spell. More than one eidolon can be summoned, but not without penalty.
Hit points, attack bonuses, and total damage per hit is affected proportionally to the number of eidolons summoned. For these three stats, they are always equal to their normal number over the number of eidolons in play, so if there are five eidolons, those three stats are divided by five for each eidolon.
The eidolons do not receive feats, instead they gain elemental damage and resistance to their corresponding element. The resistance to the element is equal to the hit dice of the eidolon. The elemental damage is an extra dice on all attack rolls equal to the eidolon's hit dice.
If an eidolon dies the summoner loses hit points equal to the evolution points of the eidolon. If the eidolon is dismissed the summoner loses half as many hit points as if the eidolon had died. Summoned eidolons start with no wounds.
All five eidolons currently have max hit points for the first three hit dice, and then roll afterwards.
These changes are compatable with the story summoner, except that evolve base form is not gained, but transposition is still lost.
He said that the original idea came from here and while it's cool, I think it might be overpowered.
Thoughts?
I think this is way, way, way too complicated for a class that is already pretty complicated.
If he wants to riffle a deck of harrow cards to determine stuff on his own, as an rp tool, that is great. Changing mechanics is pretty much always* a bad idea.
*I actually mean always.
I feel you, although this is one of those players where it it very hard to say no to him. It's a bit difficult to GM sometimes but the ideas are fairly cool and I feel like I should reward creativity to some extent. I admit that this seems overly complex and - more concerning to me - unbalanced. Do you have any suggestions to the 'archetype' to make it less complex/more balanced compared to the other classes. By balanced I mean that we have a few first time players in the group, including one sword-saint samurai (probably not the most powerful class).
Have you looked at
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo ---summoner-archetypes/story-summoner-summoner-archetype
Which is a harrow themed summoner, add a few feats in and you may well get the feel you are looking for.
Unfortunatly as I despise Yugi-o and similar things I can't actually tell if the archetype would help.
Rewriting a lot of rules for one player is problematic as if it ends up unbalanced you will have to perform another rewrite half way through the game and other players may start wanting their own special snowflake abilities which would be a lot of work.
Have you looked at
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo ---summoner-archetypes/story-summoner-summoner-archetypeWhich is a harrow themed summoner, add a few feats in and you may well get the feel you are looking for.
Unfortunatly as I despise Yugi-o and similar things I can't actually tell if the archetype would help.
Rewriting a lot of rules for one player is problematic as if it ends up unbalanced you will have to perform another rewrite half way through the game and other players may start wanting their own special snowflake abilities which would be a lot of work.
He is already using the story summoner archetype in addition to these changes, but I appreciate the help. This idea was admittedly last minute, as I put a limit on free character changes after third level so he won't make any more major changes without using the downtime retraining rules.
The extra spells for hp damage is a screaming red flag.
So a 2nd level spell costs 4 hp on average a charge from a wand of cure light wounds heals that and costs 15gp.
Yes please I will pay 750 gp for another 50 2nd level spells per day.
Make it con damage or hp damage which has to be healed naturally then it is a real price
The random selection of 1st level spells is slightly limiting but careful selection of the ones overrepresented and use of healing magic (picking is deck as an in character excuse) should let him overcome that easily.
And as there are less spells of each higher level he gets to cherry pick even better for the more powerful spells , thats cool for him
Eidelons should get average hp for all dice or roll if you are being generous, maximum hp is overkill
If he wants extra abilities for an eidelon then spend evolution points, he can already spend a feat for an extra evolution point
Multiple Eidelons , it looks to me like he can have any one of 5 at full strength.
So that 5 custom eidelons for different tactical situations thats great ! I want it for all characters.
When he swaps Eidelons are they fully healed ? normally healing an eidelon is one of the checks on their power.
I stopped looking at this point, the worst powergamer I know would not try to run this past me for fear my laughter at him when I rejected it would do me harm
I would tell him stick with the rules in the books, the summoner is already one of the most powerful classes and stop trying to be god. The harrowed summoning feat may help a bit
Sorry for being negative but really this is rather broken in my arrogant opininion. Can one of those multiple Eidelons be worn like a Synthesist summoner as well? thats about the only thing he missed
The extra spells for hp damage is a screaming red flag.
So a 2nd level spell costs 4 hp on average a charge from a wand of cure light wounds heals that and costs 15gp.
Yes please I will pay 750 gp for another 50 2nd level spells per day.Make it con damage or hp damage which has to be healed naturally then it is a real price
The random selection of 1st level spells is slightly limiting but careful selection of the ones overrepresented and use of healing magic (picking is deck as an in character excuse) should let him overcome that easily.
And as there are less spells of each higher level he gets to cherry pick even better for the more powerful spells , thats cool for himEidelons should get average hp for all dice or roll if you are being generous, maximum hp is overkill
If he wants extra abilities for an eidelon then spend evolution points, he can already spend a feat for an extra evolution point
Multiple Eidelons , it looks to me like he can have any one of 5 at full strength.
So that 5 custom eidelons for different tactical situations thats great ! I want it for all characters.
When he swaps Eidelons are they fully healed ? normally healing an eidelon is one of the checks on their power.I stopped looking at this point, the worst powergamer I know would not try to run this past me for fear my laughter at him when I rejected it would do me harm
I would tell him stick with the rules in the books, the summoner is already one of the most powerful classes and stop trying to be god. The harrowed summoning feat may help a bit
Sorry for being negative but really this is rather broken in my arrogant opininion. Can one of those multiple Eidelons be worn like a Synthesist summoner as well? thats about the only thing he missed
Thank you, this is exactly what I wanted. I knew this was unbalanced but I needed something backed up by another person. - You are a person, right? ;)
I'll start weaning this down based on your suggestions or failing that tell him to stick to story summoner.Edit - for his eidolons, what do you think of this:
Whenever an eidolon is dismissed - whether intentionally or not - the summoner suffers as much damage (HP) as the eidolon had lost. In turn, eidolons are always summoned with no wounds.
Thoughts?
Its mixed
its a while since I dealt with a summoner but as I recall healing damage they have taken normally requires a specialist summoner spell, so this is an advantage in that it can shift the damage to something which can be healed conventionally, although of course he can already absorb some of the damage the eidelon takes via life link and heal it conventionally.
The downside is that of course he could end up unable to switch eidelon because the damage would kill him this is a disadvantage.
The risk of the Eidelon being dismissed is real but there are several magical items which can reduce the risk of the Eidelon being dismissed and he should be trying to get one of those anyway
It is a bit of a limitation and I think you should be ok with it