I have been reading the dresden files and I find Michel carpenter to be the best example of a paladin I have found in fiction. To that end I want to make an archetype to help reflect his abilities.
I feel like detect evil should be replaced with something else. Maybe plot sense that he know how to arrive in the nick of time?
Other ideas?
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Okay here are a few thoughts that I have in no particular order.
Detect Evil: Michael is better at this than the pathfinder paladin, not only can he identity evil directly but he has a sort of sense for evil in the area (can sense Nicodemus presence at the airport and on the train in book 5). Additionally he as Harry says there is no point in lying to a knight of the cross so maybe a bonus to sense motive and perception vs illusions (in book 10 Sanya identifies Thomas as a vampire right away). Or you could just leave detect evil as is and then add perception to class skills, maybe have Cha add to sense motive and perception as part of divine grace.
Smite Evil & divine grace seem fine.
Divine Bond: clearly bonded to his sword I'd probably do something like loose lay on hands but have a stronger divine bond to your weapon maybe just always active instead of min per day.
A big thing about Michael is the version of the paladin code he follows allows him to be lawful good not lawful stupid but still very flavorful.
It is his job to save the souls corrupted by evil and thus always gives them a chance to surrender and redeem themselves, fights fairly etc. However against immortal evils he doesn't have any restrictions on how he fights.
This enables paladins to be good and merciful when there are mortal souls to be redeemed but means that they are okay stabbing the black dragon or the arch demon in the back because a head on assault would be idiotic.
Something akin to Commune would make sense.
S/He'd have to be pretty high level to be anything like Michael. And probably mythic. A Knight of the Cross in training could be interesting in terms of someone wanting to be worthy of it.
A War Oracle might make some sense. He's very paladin in terms of character, but I agree with others that he doesn't really fit with a Pathfinder paladin. At least not fully.
The Dresden Files RPG is great. It's FATE and very story teller. And the RPG books have great margin notes...
I'm afraid I'm only familiar with "Dresden Files" by way of the canceled TV show, and I don't remember much at all about Michael.
But, is "Paladin" really the best class to represent what the character can do? Perhaps there's another character class with abilities that are closer?
After that, it's easy enough to add a Code of Honor onto the character as part of the fluff... you can do that for almost any of the usual character classes with no real problems: Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Sorcerer, Monk, Cleric, etc.
For example, Batman isn't too far off from a paladin-type character in concept, but Batman's abilities are probably better modeled with the Rogue than with the Paladin class. Take one Rogue, add Batman's vigilante-flavored code of honor, an appropriate costume, a gritty back-story, and turn him loose on the streets at night to fight crime, and you're at least 90% or more of the way to a paladin-like Caped Crusader character with no modifications to the basic Rogue mechanics.
In other words, is the ability to know where exactly the right place to be to fight evil probably better modeled by a Wizard specialized in the Divination school? Yes? Are many, most, or all of the other abilities of this character roughly equivalent to Wizard abilities? Then class or multi-class as a Wizard, Multi-class as fighter or whatever as appropriate, add a Paladin-style code of honor, an appropriate costume, add a holy-warrior back-story and concept to your description, and you're probably set to go.
That said, does "...plot sense that he know how to arrive in the nick of time..." need to be mechanically modeled? It actually seems like it can be easily built into the character "fluff" as the default reason the PC chooses to be on the adventure. "So, why are you guys meeting up in the tavern to accept a quest from some weird wizard again?" Stereotypical Rogue: "I'm here for the money!" Stereotypical Monk: "I'm here for revenge!" Stereotypical Fighter: "I'm here to kick bulette monsters and take names!" Pretty much ANY character: "I'm here, because I have a feeling this is where I need to be, right now, and these feelings are never wrong...."
I'm afraid I'm only familiar with "Dresden Files" by way of the canceled TV show, and I don't remember much at all about Michael.
But, is "Paladin" really the best class to represent what the character can do? Perhaps there's another character class with abilities that are closer?
If you don't know the character why would you think Paladin isn't the right class? And in Michaels case it really, really is.
On spells
So yeah he's got some spells but he just uses healing and protection ones, he avoids buffs.
I know about the dresden files RPG and have read though it really liked it, but I can't get a group together for it.
I think the biggest different between a knight of the cross and a pathfinder paladin is that when a knight of the cross has faith it is rewarded. He can be sure if he stays true everything will turn out all right. He can trust the DM. A pathfinder paladin however can be put into double binds and other stupid things.
I know about the dresden files RPG and have read though it really liked it, but I can't get a group together for it.
I think the biggest different between a knight of the cross and a pathfinder paladin is that when a knight of the cross has faith it is rewarded. He can be sure if he stays true everything will turn out all right. He can trust the DM. A pathfinder paladin however can be put into double binds and other stupid things.
trust in the GM is Unfortunatly not somthing you can make rules about. All players should be able to trust the GM. But i agree it seems to often be a issue with Paladins.
The downside to the "going where needed" hook/power, is it is 100% deus ex machina, so it will only really be swallowable if the player knows of this walking into the character creation process.
I'm pretty sure that Deus ex machina is on the Paladin Crest (or maybe eques ex deus?), they are designed to be the cavalry that comes in when all hope seems lost.
That said I feel like a lot of campaigns end up running deus ex machina anyways. Unless the PC's actively mess up they should be able to arrive in the nick of time to save the day. Big damn heroes style.
In a sense, I guess that is true. More so once Divination really gets going. All I was really trying to stress was that in the books and RPG for the Dresden Files, is that those members of Faith never seemed to be in concious control of arriving where needed when needed, and that trying to replicate that facet of being a KotC will require regular DM intervention...mayhaps the reason the higher powers never seem to answer prayers is because they are too busy using their limited intervention in the mortal plane getting these champions to where they need to be? Could be an interesting plot point...esp if the forces of the lower powers are dead set on severing such lines of command and control.The downside to the "going where needed" hook/power, is it is 100% deus ex machina, so it will only really be swallowable if the player knows of this walking into the character creation process.I'm pretty sure that Deus ex machina is on the Paladin Crest (or maybe eques ex deus?), they are designed to be the cavalry that comes in when all hope seems lost.
That said I feel like a lot of campaigns end up running deus ex machina anyways. Unless the PC's actively mess up they should be able to arrive in the nick of time to save the day. Big damn heroes style.
Or pehaps the higher powers do answer prayers, and interven all the time, but being higher powers they do it in a way that morals cannot see without faith. :)
Actually paladin ISN'T the best choice. Michael is a man who believes. Not just in god but in a truly righteous way of living. He lives by that. Yes that does seem paladin like, but his restrictions are due to his link to the sword, nothing else. It's an Artifact an artifact with prerequisites and limits but he's more or less an ordinary mortal. He's better off being represented as a fighter or maybe Chevalier. (not familiar with it)
Actually paladin ISN'T the best choice. Michael is a man who believes. Not just in god but in a truly righteous way of living. He lives by that. Yes that does seem paladin like, but his restrictions are due to his link to the sword, nothing else. It's an Artifact an artifact with prerequisites and limits but he's more or less an ordinary mortal. He's better off being represented as a fighter or maybe Chevalier. (not familiar with it)
I don't remember the exact quote but in "the Warrior" Harry replies to Molly at one point that the swords are just metal, it's the people who wield them that give them power.
My take on the Knights of the Cross have always been that they are Jim Butcher's way of writing the paladin concept in a realistic and satisfying way. He's a gamer and has undoubtedly run into the old arguments around Paladins and being LG. I think "the Warrior" does a good job of showing this and showing something that could possibly cause him to "fall". I really recommend reading it if you haven't, it's a personal favorite.
The Knights of the Cross might not fit neatly into Paladins because the settings are to different. At their core they are people who believe in being good people, standing up against evil when presented, but value compassion, forgiveness and free will. They don't have to be about serving a god either or belonging to a particular fate. Occasionally they might get into a bind like when Michael couldn't step in to stop Leah from trying to collect on the bargain Harry made with her or staying their hand against a Denarian who gives up their coin just to save their skin. I think Grave Peril does a good job with dealing with the question of the Paladin in a land where slavery is legal. If an innocent needs there help they are willing to take on long odds for the innocent's sake.
If I was going to go with something based on the Dresdinverse I'd ditch spells and the mount and give them some channel energy and possibly some inspiration benefits for allies beyond courage. Another thing that might be interesting for a Paladin would be something inspired from Sanya's character concept: a Paladin that was someone evil but hand all their beliefs exposed as lies and now is a Paladin to undue the harm they did.
Excellent point however, that view is Harry's not intrinsically true in the case of the blade. Here we get into the murky waters of belief in the Dresden verse. That belief is a power all it's own, but that doesn't mean much in the case of Amorrachius. It isn't the subject of belief like the shroud or the Grail.
Excellent point however, that view is Harry's not intrinsically true in the case of the blade. Here we get into the murky waters of belief in the Dresden verse. That belief is a power all it's own, but that doesn't mean much in the case of Amorrachius. It isn't the subject of belief like the shroud or the Grail.
Not really, remember that the false shroud has power due to belief. As Harry said in Death Masks, whether it was the real one or not, a lot of people believing it was real would give it real power. Uriel states in Skin Games that it was thanks to Harry and Butter's actions that allowed Fidelachious to reform. The swords are confirmed to have the nails of the cross in them, but they are believed to have them. Keep in Mind all that Michael was able to do without Amorrachius at Bianca's ball in Grave Peril. The sword doesn't make the knight, something Uriel has said about Michael a couple of times.
If you look at it the other parts of the Dresdenverse, like the Oblivion war, it might even be conceivable that these items could be sealed away if something came along and to get people to forget about them over centuries. Belief is a big deal in the Dresdenverse.
Yes, but part of what I'm saying is that the shroud and the grail are believed in a very wide scale, the swords aren't. They're not historical and religious artifacts that all of Christianity grew up hearing about. They're something both more and less, by the way, might wanna throw a spoiler up there not everybody has read the last book.
They're the legendary swords Excaliber, Kusanagi, and Durandel. Excaliber and the grail at least are strongly link. Also, while not as widely known, people have seen them being actively used to destroy monsters. Seeing is believing.
Sorry, I was being sly at work, It slipped my mind to do a spoiler. This is a fun debate btw.
Indeed, but where do you get this information? I don't recall any of that.
Actually paladin ISN'T the best choice. Michael is a man who believes. Not just in god but in a truly righteous way of living. He lives by that. Yes that does seem paladin like, but his restrictions are due to his link to the sword, nothing else. It's an Artifact an artifact with prerequisites and limits but he's more or less an ordinary mortal. He's better off being represented as a fighter or maybe Chevalier. (not familiar with it)
So paladin isn't the best choice, except Mchael acts like a paladin, has most of the powers of a paladin, and has the restrictions of a paladin.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then I think it's fair to say it's a member of Anatidae family, you know?Sure his restrictions are mostly self-imposed from being a righteous man, but that is exactly what a paladins restrictions should be. Keep in mind that paladins, like Knights of the Cross (See: Sanya) don't need gods in D&D and PF. They can't follow gods, like Michael does, but they don't need to. Also his restrictions aren't because of the sword, they are because he s a good christian that actually follows his religion.
And in trying to convert a character to a game system making him a fighter with an artifact sword that is more powerfull than any artifact in the books is worse than giving him levels in the class that already has the right powers.
What powers? I've never seen him exhibit any powers that aren't expkaines by the sword other than his spider sense.
But explaining all his powers as being from the sword makes for crappy Pathfinder. It works on Dresden Files RPG and on Mutants and Masterminds but not in Pathfinder. So we make him a paladin.
Back on topic, @fictionfan maybe if we scrap plot sense as something that has to be a thematic choice of the DM, we can make an archetype trading Lay on Hand for a more powerful Weapon Bond and a few extra combat feats?
A melee type that isn't reliant on any physical stats, just charisma.
You mean something like a SMITING PALADIN?
Can't say I'm familiar with hex blades. I tend to cue into classes and thats it. I've only built two straight melees in my entire gaminng career.
Here is an idea. The player comes up with their code and whenever it causes them trouble they get a hero point.
Indeed, but where do you get this information? I don't recall any of that.
Ghost Stories- Sir Stewart names them for Harry. Harry says something about having a GED.
I have the audiobooks and only a few others besides them. I've listened to them a lot at work.
Hmm. Guess I need to hurry up on my re-read.
What powers? I've never seen him exhibit any powers that aren't expkaines by the sword other than his spider sense.
Grave Peril At Bianca's, when he doesn't have the sword, a Red Court Vampire (Kelly Hamilton) touches Michael while trying to mess with him and her hand catches fire. Later he gets dogpiled by red court, yell some latin, and they go flying off him. Red Court aren't as vulnerable to faith as Black Court.
Charity also manages to pull some stuff off too in Grave Peril (in Graceland Cemetery) and possibly Proven Guilty (the gate in Arctis Tor). I'd say she has at least a few Paladin levels :).
Charity Carpenter? Warpriest.
:)
If you don't know the character why would you think Paladin isn't the right class?I'm afraid I'm only familiar with "Dresden Files" by way of the canceled TV show, and I don't remember much at all about Michael.
But, is "Paladin" really the best class to represent what the character can do? Perhaps there's another character class with abilities that are closer?
A better question might be, "why should I think that the obvious (or at least the first) choice of D&D Class is necessarily the best fit for a non-D&D character concept?"
It's been my experience that D&D classes can be some fairly strange and specific things that as seemingly obvious first choices rarely fit a non-D&D character concept very neatly. For example, the Barbarian class would probably be one of the worst choices for modeling Conan the Barbarian in D&D.
And, in the case of the D&D Paladin, there are many other options that can cover similar ground to the Paladin: Clerics are an obvious choice if healing magic is involved, but Bards, Druids, multi-class characters like Wizard-Rogues or Sorceror-Fighters, or any of a bewildering number of third-party classes and prestige classes can, with a quick re-write of the flavor text and the addition of a little character background and an optional code of ethics, model a miracle-working holy-warrior character.
Put another way - a quote from the original post: "I find Michel carpenter to be the best example of a paladin I have found in fiction...." - This character might be the best example of a paladin in fiction, but is the D&D Paladin necessarily a good enough example of a paladin in fiction?
With dozens or hundreds of other Class options out there and no particularly good reason that I've seen to write all but one of them off yet, I'm only suggesting keeping your options open.
I've personally considered that Conan was best modeled as a No-Spell Ranger, with max FE: Humans, and then Beasts and Constructs. In the books, he's not really a berserker, he's got all the appropriate skills and woodslore, wears light armor, etc etc.
Even if only 10th level, +6 FE vs all humans would make him deadlier then any raging barbarian.
==Aelryinth
Don't forget that Charity is a minor talent. At least.
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I think one of the big differences between Michael and normal Paladins is that Michael is a bit more subtle.
Well, not much. He's still a guy slinging around a broadswords that emits holy radiance and shouting in latin, but he's not quite as overt with his divine abilities-- it's mostly the aforementioned holy radiance. Maybe some abilities that make his Paladin status less apparent, until he really starts slinging around the holy power.
In addition, one of the Swords' abilities, in the RPG, is the ability to trigger the Catches of all defensive abilities. Perhaps an ability that allows the character to bypass a certain amount of DR or make his weapons different types for the purposes of bypassing DR?
Oh, and I really like the idea of a boosted Detect Evil. Fits with the character.
So as mentioned above you can play it a few ways, either Michael get's his power directly from the sword in which case he is a fighter with an attuned object or he gets his power from his faith in which case he is a paladin in his own right even without the sword.
I would put my vote on the second remember even in book 3:
I'd Say Paladin: Warrior of the Holy Light (Mostly because of what he does in book 10 at the train station)
You could make showing up when needed a class ability but I think it really only works when the GM plays the role of God arranging things for him.
Beyond that all of the abilities fit pretty well, the smiting, his faith protecting him
the detecting of evil (though I think it should be an area thing rather than a specific target thing).
Lay on Hands is a bit out of place as Michael doesn't do any overt healing in the books but almost no one does (I can only think of five instances of magical healing, two by senior council members, two by a fairy nobles, and one other which is in a non-combat situation). Maybe he just has a lot of Divine feats for other uses of his lay on hands abilities.
That said I would think that the sword is still an artifact of the Holy Avenger persuasion but more mighty, and not necessarily restricted to Paladins but rather to people of pure heart and purpose.
His mercies are more in the neighborhood of dispels and immunities, removing magical conditions more then actual physical healing.
He burns the swarm off Harry in Skin Game, and removes Mab's tampering with Harry's head in Summer Knight. He holds back the darkness in the train station, and the shadow of Andurial.
healing is a rare thing in Harry's world...either you heal yourself supernaturally or not much at all, people who can heal others are very rare and/or extremely powerful. Seems to be an outgrowth of shapechanging, or simply massive vitality. Since healing is MUCH easier in PF, Michael would do fine as a PF paladin.
His Detect Evil is more a Find the Path, kicking on when he's got something to do, leading him to where he needs to be. Very deus ex machina, but that's the whole idea behind it as being a Fist of God.
==Aelryinth
I'm hoping that the next wielder of Fidelacchius is a video game fan, so he can start throwing wind blades, whirlwind attacks, chopping through walls, setting the sword on fire, and so forth.
After all, that's what magic swords are supposed to do, right?
==Aelryinth