[PFS] What to do with an Undine?

[Drogos]

So I've had the boon for awhile and I keep jumping from one idea to a next without settling on something. Below is decisions I've made and then backed off of for whatever reason;

1) Undine Adept - aquatic and water subtype summons aren't terribly good in most environments

2) Zen Archer - really strong, still not terribly certain this won't be the way I go, but it kind of feels meh on the whole (it shoots things, like great, but that's kind of it)

3) Musketmaster - Similar to the Zen Archer, I just haven't played any gunslingers

4) Water Singer - looks cool, but not sure how much I'm really going to opt to use it's special abilities rather than just buff

5) Unchained Monk/Rogue build - I picked the book up because I'm planning on using my Ifrit boon for Summoner and I got to looking at the other stuff in the book. Monk looks like a departure from what I'm used to from the class, but I think I like the direction. Rogue was to get Dex to Damage for Unarmed and also get Debilitating Injury. I figured with that and Style Strike I'd be able to kick my AC against a single opponent to stratospheric levels, which struck me as interesting. This is where I'm currently leaning, but I'm not sold on it. Since Unchained is so new, I'm not sure what thoughts are on certain abilities. I'm also worried because this takes like 9 levels to come online, which is less than ideal.

So this is kind of where I'm at and I'm hoping a bit of input from folks will help me out. I've got the full 4 elemental boons, so I could make a Suli, but I'm just not feeling anything I'd like to build with that race and I've largely decided what I'd be interested in for my other three boons (Ifrit Summoner, Oread Reach Cleric, and Sylph Magus).

[Claxon]

May I add one? An archer ranger/slayer? The str penalty hurts a bit, but it's only 1 point of damage. The bonus dex and wisdom help balance that out though. Ranger brings an animal companion and some spells into the mix. Most importantly, use of a wand of CLW.

Mounted archery is exceptionally strong, and even if you have to get off the back of your animal companion you're still incredibly powerful.

Personally, I find the ranger much more interesting than slayer or zen archer, with comparable levels of damage output in the early game (edge to Zen Archer though) ending with the Ranger being massively more capable of damage output once he obtains Instant Enemy.

[Drogos]

I certainly am open to other options. I will mention that my core character is a Ranger, but that doesn't disqualify the class. I just try not to redo builds too much.

[RainyDayNinja]

Go Gunslinger, but take a one-level dip into Zen Archer for Precise Shot as a bonus feat, plus Wis to AC. Gun-fu monk.

[calagnar]

Drogos wrote:

5) Unchained Monk/Rogue build - I picked the book up because I'm planning on using my Ifrit boon for Summoner and I got to looking at the other stuff in the book. Monk looks like a departure from what I'm used to from the class, but I think I like the direction. Rogue was to get Dex to Damage for Unarmed and also get Debilitating Injury. I figured with that and Style Strike I'd be able to kick my AC against a single opponent to stratospheric levels, which struck me as interesting. This is where I'm currently leaning, but I'm not sold on it. Since Unchained is so new, I'm not sure what thoughts are on certain abilities. I'm also worried because this takes like 9 levels to come online, which is less than ideal.

This will not take 9 levels to be effective. It will be effective from level 4 on. 1 level monk, 3 levels rogue. every thing after that builds on the base of what you need. This kind of build can have a very high AC and good damage. Just takes 3 levels of rogue to get the Dex to damage with unarmed strikes. Around level 8. You should be at mid to high 30s AC. Combine that with Piranha Strike and Dex to damage your looking at around 1D8+10 damage with 3 attacks per round with flurry. Not bad for a level 8. I just like characters that are a bit out side the box.

[Mystically Inclined]

Claxon wrote:

Mounted archery is exceptionally strong

It is? I've never seen it in play. What advantages does it have over a standard archer build? Mobility, yes, but is that really much of an issue when you're towards the back of the party?

[Claxon]

Mystically Inclined wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Mounted archery is exceptionally strong

It is? I've never seen it in play. What advantages does it have over a standard archer build? Mobility, yes, but is that really much of an issue when you're towards the back of the party?

You get to make a full attack, despite your mount moving. You only take penalties if your mount double moves or runs. The is devastatingly effective because it's nearly impossible for an enemy to pin you down and get a full attack on you, while you can pretty much always do so to them. Plus, if you grant your mount the bodyguard archetype it can take the bodyguard feat. With higher intelligence it can take In Harm's Way to save your bacon if need be. I use the animal companion as a mobile defense turret.

Also, it doesn't actually change your build. Your archer doesn't actually need any of the mounted archery feats, they just reduce penalties that you're unlikely to care about. So the build is exactly the same, feat wise.

This is exactly what you want to build, except take clustered shots sooner and boon companion and reduce emphasis on Snap Shot line. It's nice, but your goal is normally to stay as far away as possible from the enemy, not get close to them.

In my experience, once you start to get into higher levels your animal companion just isn't that effective of a source for damage, and puts you in harm's way. So it's better to just build them as a defensive tool. You do sacrifice some damage output with them, but I've honestly over found them to be effective at levels 7 or less. After that their to-hit and damage just can't keep pace to be particularly relevant. At least not without spending a large amount of WBL on them.

[Drogos]

calagnar wrote:

This will not take 9 levels to be effective. It will be effective from level 4 on. 1 level monk, 3 levels rogue. every thing after that builds on the base of what you need. This kind of build can have a very high AC and good damage. Just takes 3 levels of rogue to get the Dex to damage with unarmed strikes. Around level 8. You should be at mid to high 30s AC. Combine that with Piranha Strike and Dex to damage your looking at around 1D8+10 damage with 3 attacks per round with flurry. Not bad for a level 8. I just like characters that are a bit out side the box.

I see your point. I was kind of thinking it looking like this:

STR 10, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8

1 Monk) Weapon Finesse, Dodge*
2 Rogue) [Weapon Finesse], retrain 1st for Hydraulic Maneuver
3 Rogue) Weapon Training: Unarmed, Piranha Strike
4 Rogue) [Dex to Damage: Unarmed]
5 Rogue) [Debilitating Injury], Combat Swipe, Triton Portal? (kind of interesting to summon my own flanking partner)
6 Monk) Improved Grapple*
7 Monk) Aquatic Ancestry?
8 Monk) [Ki Power: Barkskin]
9 Monk) [Style Strike: Defensive Spin]
10 Monk) [Ki Power: Hydraulic Push], Improved Trip*
11 Monk) Extra Ki?

Yeah, I pretty much feel like I have no clue how to build a DEX monk.

[LazGrizzle]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Go Gunslinger, but take a one-level dip into Zen Archer for Precise Shot as a bonus feat, plus Wis to AC. Gun-fu monk.

I really dig this idea!

Maybe take a cpl levels of Monk so your unarmed strike is a little beefier. Or 1 level Zen Archer, 2 levels Brawler or something.

[calagnar]

Drogos wrote:

calagnar wrote:

This will not take 9 levels to be effective. It will be effective from level 4 on. 1 level monk, 3 levels rogue. every thing after that builds on the base of what you need. This kind of build can have a very high AC and good damage. Just takes 3 levels of rogue to get the Dex to damage with unarmed strikes. Around level 8. You should be at mid to high 30s AC. Combine that with Piranha Strike and Dex to damage your looking at around 1D8+10 damage with 3 attacks per round with flurry. Not bad for a level 8. I just like characters that are a bit out side the box.

I see your point. I was kind of thinking it looking like this:

STR 10, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8

1 Monk) Weapon Finesse, Dodge*
2 Rogue) [Weapon Finesse], retrain 1st for Hydraulic Maneuver
3 Rogue) Weapon Training: Unarmed, Piranha Strike
4 Rogue) [Dex to Damage: Unarmed]
5 Rogue) [Debilitating Injury], Combat Swipe, Triton Portal? (kind of interesting to summon my own flanking partner)
6 Monk) Improved Grapple*
7 Monk) Aquatic Ancestry?
8 Monk) [Ki Power: Barkskin]
9 Monk) [Style Strike: Defensive Spin]
10 Monk) [Ki Power: Hydraulic Push], Improved Trip*
11 Monk) Extra Ki?

Yeah, I pretty much feel like I have no clue how to build a DEX monk.

With a quick once over I would do something like this.

Str 8 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 8

Level
1: Monk1: Crane Style,& Dodge
2: Rogue1: Rogue Finesse
3: Rogue2: Piranha Strike Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
4: Rogue3: Rogue Finesse Unarmed strike (Dex to damage)
5: Rogue4: Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter
6: Monk2: Combat Reflexes
7: Monk3: Crane Wing
8: Monk4: Ki Power Qinggong Power Barkskin
9: Monk5: Improved Critical Unarmed Strike Style Strike: Leg Sweep
10: Monk6: Improved Trip, Ki Power Elemental Fury Acid
11: Monk7: Crane Riposte
12: Monk8: Ki Power Wind Jump

[TGMaxMaxer]

This pretty much screams Inquisitor with a repeating crossbow, so you dont' have to worry about str at all, (other than carrying weight) or the rapid reload feat.

Use the Sacred Huntmaster archetype to get a full druid companion and the hunter animal focus and teamwork synergy, and go to town.

I have one in play, and at level 5 he just got bane, and with the 2 ranged attack teamwork feats (one gives bonus if my AC is attacking the target I shoot, other gives even more if he is flanking it as well) he's a beast.

[Ventnor]

Be an Unchained Monk. Get Hydraulic Push ki power (it's a Qinggong power). Get Hydraulic Maneuver. Trip and blind enemies from across the room.

[Cavall]

The missus is really enjoying her elemental bloodline tattoo sorc.

[Drogos]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I think I'm going to go with the Unchained Monk (may multiclass with Rogue, not certain). Some really good suggestions came up, some I'm disqualifying based on other characters I already play, some I'm going to use on other races.

So if I go with the Multiclass, I'm leaning towards a combination of my build and Calagnar's build (basically on the feats I was uncertain about, picking up the Crane Wing stuff). I'm on the fence on the Rogue dip because I'm not certain if getting DEX to damage through a class trait or Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is better. I also like Debilitating Injury, but that's a 4 level delay on a lot of Monk abilities. Thoughts?

[calagnar]

Drogos wrote:

Thanks all for the suggestions. I think I'm going to go with the Unchained Monk (may multiclass with Rogue, not certain). Some really good suggestions came up, some I'm disqualifying based on other characters I already play, some I'm going to use on other races.

So if I go with the Multiclass, I'm leaning towards a combination of my build and Calagnar's build (basically on the feats I was uncertain about, picking up the Crane Wing stuff). I'm on the fence on the Rogue dip because I'm not certain if getting DEX to damage through a class trait or Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is better. I also like Debilitating Injury, but that's a 4 level delay on a lot of Monk abilities. Thoughts?

Both work well it's personal preference.

Rogue levels let you do traps, sneak attack damage, and Dex to damage.
Monk levels makes you better at fighting.