|
| 16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hello.
As the all capital "OFFICIAL" in the title, I would like to define with you, once for all, the rules about Grenadier Alchemical Weapon (Su).
All over the internet there are a lot of opinions and house rules about whether or not it can add Int to damage and how many times(?), but nothing clear by rules. So, I'm now considering:
- a 2 level Grenadier
- with Trow Anything (Ex) class feature (duh?!)
- using Acid+Alchemist's Fire flasks obtained via Hybridization Funnel, i.e. 1d6 (Acid, prompt) + 1d6 (Fire, prompt) + {1d6} (Fire, {delayed})
What usually bother 2nd level Grenadiers is principally the damage associated to the following actions:
1) Apply Alchemical Weapon to an ammunition and fire it;
2) Apply Alchemical Weapon to a bomb and throw it.
General question: how much damage do these attack actually do?
My question: that being so, is the Grenadier a good (Alchemist Archetype) damage dealer?
PS: This is a PFS thread, so no real-life-mechanics stuff, only RAW!
Here some RAWs:
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.
This ability replaces poison resistance.
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb's minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist's bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My (general) answers:
1) Let's say we want to apply our hybridized mixture (2d6+{1d6}) to a Medium sized Longbow arrow (1d8). With the Alchemical Weapon full description clear in mind, let's focus on the following part:
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon,...
The full effect of our mixture is 2d6 (Acid+Fire, prompt) + {1d6} (Fire, {delayed}) + 2 (Acid+Fire, prompt, splash), that adds to the damage of the arrow itself: 1d8.
Then it continues:
...but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets.
So we exclude splash damage, and we have (in the same order as before):
2d6 + {1d6} + 1d8
Does Throw Anything Int bonus apply? Let's see:
An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any.
The full effect of the mixture doesn't include Int bonus: that is an Alchemist's Extraordinary ability. Plus, we are dealing damage with an arrow, not a splash weapon, so Throw Anything doesn't apply in this case.
2) Same as above, but we are (trying) to apply our mixture to a Bomb (Su), that deals 1d6 + Int (Fire) + 1 + Int (Fire, splash) damage (the +Int damage is gained via Throw Anything, but it can be considered in the same way as a Longsword dealing 1d8 + Str damage). While the arrow was obviously a good candidate, what about Bombs? In the full description we read:
Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.
So Bombs are actually weapons and can be selected by feats, not weapon for the purpose of qualifying for feats. It seems then that it could go. We then apply our mixture full effect without splash. Splash is removed ONLY from the full effect of the mixture, because, again,
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets.
while the splash effect of the Bomb (i.e the weapon) is not removed.
So we get:
1d6 + Int (Fire, bomb) + 1 + Int (Fire, bomb, splash) + 2d6 + {1d6} (Acid+Fire, mixture)
PS: I've read all sort of opinion about "preparing a Bomb is a complex operation so you can't stop in the middle and than add alchemicals because science". No, Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, as well shooting an arrow is a standard action (draw the arrow is free), while Alchemical Weapon is (at 2nd level) a move action. So you CAN (if my answers before are right) shoot an alchemized (term by me) arrow/Bomb in a round, each round.
About MY question, I'm up to you :)
Sorry for the wall of text, but I hate incomplete threads.
Greetings, bye!
EDIT: errors
I'd also be interested in a clarification here. Please include the Explosive Missile discovery.
|
|
Once we have defined the actions above, Explosive Missile is simply applied.
Benefit: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
Whatever the damage of the arrow is (+Int or not +Int), you simply add the effect of the Bomb (1d6 + 1d6/2 levels + Int + Splash). This because:
When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target.
|
|
Shouldn't this be in the Rules Forum? There is nothing PFS specific about this question.
Yeah, it should. But I asked this for my PFS character, trying to avoid non-RAW answers. So it should be there, but it could be here too. Plus, I cannot move it (I think), so please guys, stay on the topic :)
Thanks.
Here's a key question for the Alchemical Weapon ability:
Alchemical Weapon says "but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets". Does the fact that the splash is removed change the inherent category of the weapon?
Here's the issue:
Acid flask is on a table with the special quality "splash", which means it's a splash weapon and the Throw Anything feat applies.
If circumstances cause the weapon to not do splash damage in a specific case, is it still considered a "splash weapon"? The text of Throw Anything says "adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any". Clearly, Throw Anything would apply if there were no targets in the splash zone, if the target was in a enclosed area where it couldn't splash, etc.
But what happens when you have abilities that effectively remove the splash from a weapon, like the Concentrated Splash feat? "When you deal a direct hit to a creature with a splash weapon that normally also deals splash damage, you can choose to forgo dealing splash damage..."
Scenario 1) With Concentrated Splash, you elect to not do the splash damage in exchange for additional damage. Is the acid flask still considered a splash weapon for the purposes of Throw Anything?
Scenario 2) Then compare that to Alchemical Weapon. You elect not to do splash damage in exchange for additional range and additional damage. So is the acid flask still considered a splash weapon for the purposes of Throw Anything in this case?
If you answer differently for each scenario, it will help if you explain your reasoning: what makes the two scenarios different?
This is a pedantic pet peeve that in no way changes the point or strength of your argument:
Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.
So Bombs are actually weapons
"are considered" =/= "are actually" or "are"
On a one-to-one comparison, if thing A "is considered" thing B, it actually means that thing A is not thing B, but we will treat it as if it were thing B, at least for the discussion at hand.
In a category membership statement (the case at hand), if thing A is actually a member of Category 1, we would also just say, "Thing A is a {name of Category 1}."
In general, the only reason for an author to use the term "are considered" instead of "are" (and the only reason for an editor to let the unnecessary passive voice stand) is to allow some wiggle room in the definition for some reason.
I don't see anything in this particular discussion where any wiggle room might come into play, but it doesn't change the grammatical and rhetorical usage. If we assume the author and editor know what they're doing, then they had a reason to use "are considered" instead of "are"--especially when you realize that in two-column print layout, every letter counts, and 10 letters is a lot of wasted space for sloppy usage.
In a forum where we're always talking about "RAW", it helps if we refer to what's actually written. What's written is "are considered", not "are" or "are actually".
Like I said, it's a digression that has no actual bearing on the discussion at hand, but it's still a pet peeve.
|
|
Scenario 1) With Concentrated Splash, you elect to not do the splash damage in exchange for additional damage. Is the acid flask still considered a splash weapon for the purposes of Throw Anything?
Scenario 2) Then compare that to Alchemical Weapon. You elect not to do splash damage in exchange for additional range and additional damage. So is the acid flask still considered a splash weapon for the purposes of Throw Anything in this case?
If you answer differently for each scenario, it will help if you explain your reasoning: what makes the two scenarios different?
Thank you, your point is really intresting.
In my opinion, I would answer differently, in particular:1)Yes, you apply Throw Anything and keep the +Int bonus. This because Concentrated Splash doesn't alter the category of the thrown alchemicals. You are still throwing a (categorised) splash weapon, that in this case doesn't splash. It's still a splash weapon, the same way a broken Longsword is still a Longsword, and not a Shortsword.
2)No, you don't apply Throw Anything, because, splash or not splash weapon, you are not actually throwing it. You are applying its full effect to a projectile, and then throwing it (the projectile). The full effect comprehend the splash, removed by Alchemical Weapon, but not the +Int bonus, because it is a bonus that you apply AFTER, if you throw the alchemical. I say this sadly, because I really would like it was the other way :)
Plus, a clarification about the double move action (move to draw the alchemical + move to apply Alchemical Weapon) would be appreciated. I would say single move for all, just because it's not specified, alchemised weapons loose their effect after 1 minute, wasting money/resources if you don't use them, and because it would be otherwise practically unusable. All these limitations + a 25CD alchemy check + 10 minutes work for a single arrow + 200gp Hybridization Funnel for a +2d6+{1d6} damage is not quite worth. Double move and wasted resources for just +1d6 (no Hybridization Funner) is even less worth. You could actually throw the alchemicals "by hand" each round with splash and +Int bonus obtaining a much better result!
Is there a way to highlight this questions to the upper spheres? To me, these resemble the prototype of Frequently Answered Questions.
EDIT: Added things
My reading of the rules say:
The funnel makes 2 separate items into one - so fire (1d6) + acid (1d6) become a new item:
Flask of fire/acid (1d6 fire/1d6 acid)
Throw anything doesn't add the int bonus twice to this item - your damage would be 1d6 fire, 1d6 acid + int bonus.
So if you apply this to an arrow it doesn't add anything (as throw anything doesn't apply) - so you get:
1d6 fire/1d6 acid/1d8 arrow - not sure where you are getting any delayed damage from this - I'm not seeing it.
As to the second question:
Creating the bomb is a standard. Adding it to the weapon is a move. If the bomb isn't used in the round it's created - it becomes a dud. " Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert"
Thus - unless you have a way to take a second standard action to actually fire or swing the weapon - no. The problem isn't putting the bomb on a weapon - as of level 6 you could do this and hand the arrow/weapon to another character to use - rather the problem is that creating the bomb is *always* a standard action.
Bombs dont exist until you make the standard action to create them, and once theyre created you throw them immediately within the same action, as you stated. Alchemical weapon works with bows and arrows because the arrows exist when you use your move action, it is impossible to use a move action while holding a bomb in your hand because core rulebook action rules. At any rate I think throw anything would still apply because a splash weapon is always a splash weapon even if the splash damage doesn't take effect, at least as far as rules are concerned.
|
|
So, since now we have:
1) Alchemical Weapon and projectiles:
a- 2d6 (Acid+Fire, mixture, prompt) + {1d6} (Fire, mixture, delayed) + 1d8 (Longbow), move action to draw the alchemical and apply Alchemical Weapon
b- 2d6 + Int (Acid+Fire, mixture, prompt) + {1d6} + Int (Fire, mixture, delayed) + 1d8 (Longbow), move action to draw the alchemical and apply Alchemical Weapon
c- 2d6 (Acid+Fire, mixture, prompt) + {1d6} (Fire, mixture, delayed) + 1d8 (Longbow), move action to draw the alchemical + move action to apply Alchemical Weapon
d- 2d6 + Int (Acid+Fire, mixture, prompt) + {1d6} + Int (Fire, mixture, delayed) + 1d8 (Longbow), move action to draw the alchemical + move action to apply Alchemical Weapon
2) Alchemical Weapon and Bombs:
a- No can do
b- 1d6 + Int (Fire, Bomb) + 1 + Int (Fire, Bomb, splash) + 2d6 (Acid+Fire, mixture, prompt) + {1d6} (Fire, mixture, delayed)
Add a * to select an option without the delayed {1d6}
From what I've read, the options that Paizo agrees with are always the least appealing, so I would say 1)c* and 2)a.
Paizo, choose two!
|
|
Sorry for bumping, but I'm going to play a 2nd level Grenadier in a PFS event, with people I don't know, and I would like to be sure that my character works in a certain way, whatever this way is.
Plus, this is still an incomplete thread, and I hate incomplete threads.
(I've noticed a lot of grammar errors in my previous posts, sorry for that, English is not my first language.)
What is the delayed from - I honestly am missing that (and it bugs me).
|
|
What is the delayed from - I honestly am missing that (and it bugs me).
It's the effect of Alchemist's Fire.
A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. If desired, the target can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.
You know something - we've been doing that wrong for years. *sigh* sometimes the things you miss - thank you clears it right up.
Gray Warden, you have a well written thread here and I hope that it receives a FAQ or at least an answer in thread.
I have a PFS Tiefling Grenadier Alchemist 3, and I apply my alchemical mixtures to arrows or if the enemy has high armor/low touch, but is out of bomb range or I am out of bombs, apply mixtures to dye arrows, no 1d8 damage but is against touch AC at longbow ranges.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
UPDATES
Since the intent of this thread is that of being an unofficial OFFICIAL compendium about Grenadier and Alchemical Weapon, here the state of the art as it is now, plus new questions.
Q>> If I use Alchemical Weapon on a weapon or projectile (duh?!), do I get to add INT TO DAMAGE even if it doesn't splash?
R>> YES
Q>> If I have more than one ability that lets me add Int to damage (eg. Focused Shot + Alchemical Weapon), do I actually add it MORE THAN ONCE?
R>> NO, because the two bonuses come from the same source.
Q>> Can I use Alchemical Weapon on Bombs?
R>> NO, Bombs are considered weapons once thrown and don't exist before that moment. No source for this one, the answer lies in the description of the Bombs and in common sense.
+>> Bombs and Extract are quite "hard-coded" in PF, so unless explicitly stated, Bombs don't act as Weapons before the act of throwing them (you can't sunder an Alchemist's bomb) and Extracts don't act as Potions
Now, new questions and my personal responses:
Q>> Does the Alchemical need to be retrieved with a MOVE ACTION before the infusion?
MyR>> NO, retrieving the object seems to be part of the infusion move action, so no double-move action required. Plus, other Alchemist's class features involve some form of objects manipulation: Bombs need to be activated and drawn in order to be thrown, and all this is part of the throwing action. Plus my GM doesn't make me pay the double-move, plus it seems that the only people on the forum who seem to support the double-move seem not to be playing a Grenadier.
Q>> Do Alchemical Weapon and Explosive Missile STACK?
MyR>> YES, BUT...Alchemical Weapon uses a MOVE ACTION (up to two move actions if the answer to the above question turns out to be YES) to infuse a projectile with the full effect of one Alchemical. Explosive Missile let one infuse one projectile with the full effect of a Bomb and throw it as a STANDARD ACTION. So, start the fight with an Acid flask in hand, infuse the projectile with it (Alchemical Weapon, move action), add to it your Bomb and throw it (Explosive Missile, standard action) choosing from which one the Int bonus comes. It sounds right to me, BUT...
Anyway, nobody seems to care on the internet. It seems to be a disagreement between JJ and the general consensus. Am I missing any errata or something?
I'm actually rather curious if since Grenadier was reworked into a hobgoblin archetype in Monster Codex if this is even legal. >.>
|
|
I don't understand what you mean. The Grenadier is in the PFS Field Guide, and from the Additional Resources Rules:
All rules in this book are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Also,
To create a goblin or ratfolk character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation. None of the other races in this book are legal choices for character creation. Other character options are legal choices for all PCs as noted below in each race section.
[...]
Hobgoblins: chain challenge, motivated march, and spirit of the corps are legal feats for play. All equipment on page 117 is legal for play. The yzobu is added as a legal animal companion.
So, nothing about Hobgoblins.