So, with this new system could you...
Does this mean you can cast 3 spells per two turns?
It specifically states you can spread Advanced Actions over multiple turns.
Turn 1, Spend 2/3 on spell. Spend 1 on next spell.
Turn 2, Spend 1/3 on previous spell to cast. Spend another 2/3 to cast second spell.
??
CRB says you cant cast more than one quickened spell in a round, iirc.
most you could get is two (one standard+one quickened) in a turn, which is the same as the old system.
No, I mean regular spells. Not quickened.
Each "Cast a Standard Action Spell" takes 2 actions. Just spread 3 spells over 2 turns.
Overall, how smoothly does this new action economy work with the Bestiaries? Does it simplify action, or does it take some translation to work with the new system?
In general, the bestiaries' monster offense stats are one of the things that for some reason always took me a min to process... I'll have this moment of staring at the page wondering if it means, they can attack with "A, B AND C", or if it means, "A, B, OR C", or something else... Probably, very straight forward to most, but I dunno, one of those things that personally causes a brain-glitch sometimes.
Some observations:
- You can no longer draw a weapon as a free action when taking a move and you have a base attack bonus of +1 or more. I believe this might be an error, because you can still do that on a charge, and you can still ready a shield as a free action in such a case.
- The charge action does not include an attack. You must take an attack action after the charge. This also means you cannot—as several posters in this thread surmised—move and then charge. However, if you can, for some reason (such as the haste spell or two weapon-fighting), make additional attacks after a charge, you gain the charge bonus on all these attacks.
- There is no more withdraw action. You must use the step action to get out of the threatened zone, and after that you can move away, or move once and attack somewhere else. You can even use two step actions and a move to get away from an attacker with reach without provoking an attack of opportunity.
- If you are under the effect of a haste spell, you can take an additional attack action. However, that attack is no longer made at your full base attack bonus. If you make four attacks in this way, they are at +0/–5/–10/–15.
- If you ready an action and then take it, you can no longer make an attack of opportunity for the remainder of the round. If you make an attack of opportunity before your readied action is triggered, you can no longer take it.
- Spells that take 1 round to cast, such as summon monster, can now have their effect occur immediately at the end of your round.
- On the tactical scale, all creatures are now 50% faster. This has no effect on running races, as the run action is more or less unchanged.
- You can now attack and then take the total defense action, although at a reduced bonus.
- Making an attack of opportunity eats your ability to make an immediate action. However, taking an immediate action no longer reduces what you can do on the following round.
- The staggered and disabled conditions are no longer defined. They should probably reduce you to 2 acts.
- The nauseated condition also is no longer defined, it should probably reduce you to 1 act that cannot be committed for an attack action.
Used this last night with my group of newer players. When I introduced it to them and told them what had changed, I don't think they 100% understood then, since their grasp of the game is still pretty light. However, once we actually got into combat and I told them, round-by-round, what had changed and what they could do now, they asked me why we did it the other way. I have to agree, in a lot of respects.
--Two-weapon fighting makes a lot more sense now. You give up accuracy for more attacks, but you always are getting those additional attacks. Which is good; you spent a feat for it, and you had to narrow down to smaller weapons to take advantage of it.
-- Moving and attacking is a lot more fluid, and the game is more mobile on the whole.
-- Multiple attacks makes low-level play (they were level 2) a little more lethal, but it also is much more difficult to take advantage of additional attacks at lower levels unless you're full-BAB. The barbarian and slayer loved it, while the TWF unchained rogue figured out that he could move>feint>attack, feint>attack>attack, or do other things during his turn that made his character more useful.
-- The wizard player said that it made a lot of sense to have a spell take up two actions. Already new, she understood the power of her character's spells, and in prior weeks would ask me things like "Why is sleep the same action as these guys attacking? I can take out, like, six dudes, and they can only hit one."
-- I got to do interesting things with encounters and fiddle with how many actions something took. Splitting things up into actions let me give the players explicit things that came into play in non-combat situations. For instance, the rogue was trying to disable a trap while the rest of the party was holding back a wall. His disabling took 9 actions, and in those 9 actions everyone else got their 9 to do things like push at the wall, wedge something into it, help another character, etc. In the end it made the whole encounter a lot more dynamic, and I really, really enjoyed being able to use the same economy for in-combat and out-of-combat encounters.
-- Having said that, it also lends itself really well for creating boss encounters. You could easily add a template to creatures that gives them extra actions on their turn, buffing them up so that a single creature can counteract the overwhelming action economy of a party. Another thing that could be really wicked is having creatures that naturally bypass certain parts of Complex actions or actions like spells that take up 2-3 chunks of the turn. If you had an entire race that could cast spells as single actions, that could be an insanely powerful enemy "boss race." Further, you can fiddle a lot with environmental effects, and I think that will be fun as well. A powerful arcane orb could make it so that creatures in the dungeon only get 2 actions per turn, or a dense swamp could do the same thing.
All-in-all it was great. I'll be using this for my group from now on, though my other table I'll keep the same since they're already knee-deep in a Mythic, E8 Reign of Winter campaign. They have enough to worry about.
I understand complaints, but I also have to point out that, once again, this is an optional system. Having played it for a full session it ran more smoothly on the whole, made martial characters feel more fluid and impressive, and it placed more of an emphasis on placement for the wizard so that spells could go off. As a DM, it also opened the game up a lot and gave me a great shorthand to convey to players how environments, traps, or whatever work. Being able to say, "Yeah. This boss monster gets 5 actions per turn" is a lot easier than trying to come up with a way to make action economy work better for a BBEG through other contrivances.
Not having "standard" and "move" and "swift" is also really nice, because I think newer players have a hard time reconciling the name of the action with what you're doing. A bard activating inspire courage as a move action isn't a move action, it's an action that uses up one of your move actions, so now you have another move action, a swift, and a standard, but if you use your move you can't use your standard and vice versa, but you can always use your swift unless you used an immediate action between your last turn and now. That's way less comprehensible than saying that inspire courage uses up an action. Attacking uses up an action. Moving uses up an action. Spells use up two. Most abilities use up one. You have three actions per turn.
rogues/slayers can now [move+sneak][attack][attack] with this system.
at first glance it seems like it'd work fairly great with TWF/ITWF--even better with HiPS or the stealth rogue edge/skill unlock.
Wait so with this haste gives an extra attack at minus 15? that probably makes it the worst third level spell in the book. Talk about a fall from grace.
Wait so with this haste gives an extra attack at minus 15? that probably makes it the worst third level spell in the book. Talk about a fall from grace.
for everyone but pummeling style monks, yeah.
Wait so with this haste gives an extra attack at minus 15? that probably makes it the worst third level spell in the book. Talk about a fall from grace.
Depends on what you do with it. What Haste does is give you an extra action that must be the attack action. Making 4 attacks in the round does lead to -15 however there are other options that open up.
such as
Cast a Spell -> move -> attack(haste)
Cast a Full round Spell -> attack (haste)
5' step -> 5' step -> 5' Step -> attack (haste)
Spell Combat -> Spell Strike -> attack (haste)
Move -> 5' Step -> attack(haste) -> 5' step
5' Step -> attack(haste) -> 5' step -> Move -> give middle finger(free action)
Attack -> Load heavy crossbow -> attack (haste)
Activate Armor of Reigheousness -> 5' step - attack (haste)
Activate Judgement -> activate Bane -> 5' step -> attack (haste)
Activate Smite Evil -> charge -> attack (haste)
Haste was ridiculously good anyways. Third level spells, by and large, are some of the most useful and powerful spells in the game, often belying their actual level. I mean, when I do homebrew stuff and tinker with classes, one of the first things I tell myself is "At fifth level a wizard can fly. What can this class do?" Alternatively, at 5th level a wizard can buff the entire party with haste, which is pretty bonkers.
A slight nerf to the spell isn't the end of the world, and like Greylurker said above, it is still incredibly useful. It now means that everyone affected by it has a free attack every turn, regardless of whatever else they did. A magus could now cast a haste, move, and use his hasted attack action to do spellstrike, since it's denoted as an Attack action. That's solid. A warpriest could swift cast three buffs and still swing.
Do I understand correctly that a 11th level twf mobile fighter got a huge buff? 1 action move, 1 action full attack, 1 action full attack?
Do I understand correctly that a 11th level twf mobile fighter got a huge buff? 1 action move, 1 action full attack, 1 action full attack?
The Attack action is not a Full attack. There is no Full attack in this system
the Attack action would allow him 1 attack with main weapon and 1 attack with off-hand weapon.
Do I understand correctly that a 11th level twf mobile fighter got a huge buff? 1 action move, 1 action full attack, 1 action full attack?The Attack action is not a Full attack. There is no Full attack in this system
the Attack action would allow him 1 attack with main weapon and 1 attack with off-hand weapon.
So his special ability that allowed all of his attacks minus one as a standard action got removed.
So his special ability that allowed all of his attacks minus one as a standard action got removed.Do I understand correctly that a 11th level twf mobile fighter got a huge buff? 1 action move, 1 action full attack, 1 action full attack?The Attack action is not a Full attack. There is no Full attack in this system
the Attack action would allow him 1 attack with main weapon and 1 attack with off-hand weapon.
considering the archetype never had that ability to begin with yeah it's gone.
That said, it dose make the 9th level ability of the archetype baked into the system for everyone. I'd either give them back Weapon Training at that level or maybe reduce the two-weapon penalties by another 1 to replace it
So his special ability that allowed all of his attacks minus one as a standard action got removed.Do I understand correctly that a 11th level twf mobile fighter got a huge buff? 1 action move, 1 action full attack, 1 action full attack?The Attack action is not a Full attack. There is no Full attack in this system
the Attack action would allow him 1 attack with main weapon and 1 attack with off-hand weapon.
considering the archetype never had that ability to begin with yeah it's gone.
That said, it dose make the 9th level ability of the archetype baked into the system for everyone. I'd either give them back Weapon Training at that level or maybe reduce the two-weapon penalties by another 1 to replace it
I guess I was thinking about rapid attack. Turning 40 in a couple of days. Maybe the mind is turning 70....
Ok so that is a bust. But a level 20 mobile fighter gets 3 whirlwind attacks a round.
oh from the mobile archetype, I thought you were talking about the two weapon archetype
Yeah that looks like it doesn't work but the wording of it suggests a good fix.
Have the ability combine move and attack into a single action.
Rapid Attack (Move, Attack, 1 act) - You can move up to your movement rate and make an attack at any point during that movement.
The system is pretty vague on some points, which is both a hindrance and a blessing. Some things are wonky without adjudication, like Vital Strike. But, since you're already well within homebrew territory just using the optional system, you can adjust things however you need to make it work how you want. It's a great framework.
I know there's not a whole lot of caster sympathy out there, but this pretty much ruins the teleportation subschool. I don't like it generally, a lot of classes are build on swift and standard actions; it's a nerf to all classes that have powers based on that. Luckily, it's optional, no need to utilize it.
wait how is it a nerf to teleportation?
it's always ended your turn after use (unless you've got dimensional agility, which also works in this system), so it doesnt seem much different to me.
then again i dont play casters too often, so if im missing anyhting really obvious please enlighten me.
I'll be happy when I finally have this book, and can dive into sections like this one and start wrapping my head around it.
From reading posts and specific examples, I swear I've changed my mind half-a-dozen times already whether or not I'll be using this AE...
Because it allowed move, cast, teleport. It was a rare and unique combination that made the teleportation subschool interesting. It really allows a wizard to think tactically on the battlefield without have to resort to flying or invisibility. That cannot be accomplished under this action economy; you need to choose between full moving or, for most of your career, a short form of teleport. Still useful, but not nearly as interesting.
I like swift actions; they have an interesting flavor and allow for combinations of unique activities. I fear that notion is so baked into the system that such a radical change cannot accommodate the myriad rules made based upon this assumption.
Find a way to give martials pounce abilities; leave the action economy system alone.
couldnt you do that with this system as well? i thought the teleport was part of the casting, and casting a spell is only 2 actions, so couldn't you [move][cast] to teleport anyway?
It wasn't a nerf to the teleportation subschool specially. It was a nerf to all casters, as they can no longer move + cast + quickened cast. You can consider the swift action teleport as a form of quickened casting. It's deliberate that if you want to cast twice in a round, you must sacrifice your move action to do so.
on the other hand that swift action teleport is now something that can be used multiple times in a round.
so you could teleport in -> attack with a held charge touch spell -> teleport away.
or
Teleport to the top of a wall -> cast a quick spell -> teleport to a hiding place.
Yes a lot of old tactics don't work in this system, but it also opens the door to a lot of new tactics
Oh, wow, there might be a nerf to the teleportation subschool? That's very likely the most powerful wizard school you could get, outside of maybe divination.
Shift being nerfed is my new favorite part of the system.
Oh, wow, someone is complaining that there might be a nerf to the teleportation subschool? That's very likely the most powerful wizard school you could get, outside of maybe divination.
Shift being nerfed is my new favorite part of the system.
Gladly I will never adopt this system. The whole game is based on certain types of actions; ad hoc changes to a fundamental action system after the fact cannot be done mid-edition without chaos. Start a new edition if you want to do this.
I am all for deeper skill uses and better classes, but I definitely don't want to see a poorly thought out change to a fundamental part of system design to nerf something which barely needed to be nerf because pits, stinking clouds, etc. still exist. Teleportation subschool made it fun to play a wizard that didn't fly or go invisible all the time; something I've heard repeated complaints on the forum about. Nerfing it means all wizards will just be flitting above the battlefield.
I don't want PF 2.0, but changes to action economy should come with an entirely new edition; too much in the original is based on the swift/standard dichotomy.
Except that the new system is better.
Wizards can still shift, it's just the equivalent of a move action now.
So then don't use it.
Yes. It becomes your move action. Cast and then shift or move. It's a severe nerf and it's boring. But it still beyond dumb to jury-rig a new action-economy system into thousands of pages of material based on a different action-economy system.
Dumb it is not, it's just a different system that makes the game play differently without having to buy a new edition and invalidate years of collecting books and whatnot all over again.
So then don't use it.
yes, that's what he said he's doing.
Yes. It becomes your move action. Cast and then shift or move. It's a severe nerf and it's boring. But it still beyond dumb to jury-rig a new action-economy system into thousands of pages of material based on a different action-economy system.
so... an powerful ability got nerfed and it's now not as fun? sorry, if i don't sound sympathetic.
I definitely agree that the ability to teleport as a swift action without spending a spell slot is definitely a bit too powerful in the hands of a caster, even if it's only X times or Y feet per day. If it was in the hands of a martial, it'd be different.
They honestly should've made that ability a move action from the start.
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The charge action does not include an attack. You must take an attack action after the charge. This also means you cannot—as several posters in this thread surmised—move and then charge. However, if you can, for some reason (such as the haste spell or two weapon-fighting), make additional attacks after a charge, you gain the charge bonus on all these attacks.
And no penalty to AC for a charge, just the +2 to hit bonus.
I think it works really well. Different, but I think once you adjest. I see it enhancing lower level play and reducing some of the issues at higher levels. Also allows for a lot more creativity in what you can do in a single round and across rounds. Now you set up a scene in which a door can be cranked open by using say 10 actions, while combat rages around characters can engage in fighting has and trying to overcome the task, although that's a simple, not very creative example.
The staggered and disabled conditions are no longer defined. They should probably reduce you to 2 acts.
The nauseated condition also is no longer defined, it should probably reduce you to 1 act that cannot be committed for an attack action.
I think Nauseated is still defined. It reduced you to a move action per round. 1 action, move actions only (any of them). The other two are trickier since move us a single action, the old standard is two. I think restricting to a single action could work best. Single action. Harsher on spell casters though, since they won't be casting spells.
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No, I mean regular spells. Not quickened.
Each "Cast a Standard Action Spell" takes 2 actions. Just spread 3 spells over 2 turns.
The normal limits on spells still apply
Core page 213 (Magic Chapter) "A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round.
Indicates normal limit of 1 spell per round, with the exception of an additional 1 swift. You can't use 1actionto start a spell, then complete it next round and cast another, that would be 2 spells in the round and violates this core principal.
Yes. It becomes your move action. Cast and then shift or move. It's a severe nerf and it's boring. But it still beyond dumb to jury-rig a new action-economy system into thousands of pages of material based on a different action-economy system.so... an powerful ability got nerfed and it's now not as fun? sorry, if i don't sound sympathetic.1) I don't care if you are sympathetic, if someone finds something fun, tactical and interesting (and certainly not OP) and allows them to play without resorting to spells people whine about even more like fly or invisibility you should be sympathetic; 2) Changing the fundamental action rules of a game system with thousands of pages of material is insane and will lead to a billion unintended consequences.
A change this fundamental belongs in a new edition, where the notion of the swift action is essential to a lot of class powers. For instance, the warpriest. I am all on board with options and changes, but this an alternative rule for running combat in an entire system that used an entirely different notion of action in developing all of its classes, APs, and activities. Luckily, it's optional. When all the classes are built anew that's when a revision to action economy makes any sense.
Why are you in this thread?
That's needlessly hostile.
My thoughts exactly. It's like getting upset at someone in the homebrew section instead of just going "huh..." And moving on your way. It's optional. Don't play it. If you have a DM that does, don't play a class or build you think is nerfed by the action economy revision. Otherwise I don't see the point of the histrionic rage that's proven mostly that a spell that's the equivalent of a 9th level spell that is given as a first level ability has been ever so slightly nerfed.
That's needlessly hostile.
I'm genuinely asking, the point he was trying to make has been made. There is no reason to drag the conversation out to listen to him repeat "I don't like it" for X number of pages.
Sincere or not, it's still needlessly hostile. If you want that poster to let things go, you should consider doing the same.
Sometimes the medicine is a bitter pill and you can't help it.
You cannot accommodate to everyone's tastes. You just have to uuuh, pick the best solution.
Unpolitely said, someone is always going to be more right than others.
So how do Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler fuction with this new system?
How do lots of things in general work that change something from Standard -> Move or Move- > Swift. Do they just do nothing now?
While generally speaking I like the potential the new system has, I think equalizing swift and move actions without reworking class mechanics that rely on one or the other was unfortunate. I wrote a post comparing martials in the new and old system here.
The short form is that Pathfinder balanced class features that relied on swift actions on the premise that A: They wouldn't interfere with other actions such as attacks and B: they'd be limited to one swift action each round. Removing those limitations changes the power level of feats, spells and class features - at times significantly so. As an example of a class that was brought down by the change, I currently have a steel-breaker brawler in my group. Each round He spends a swift action to use Exploit Weakness to add a +2 to his attack bonus. In the revised action system the odds of him using that action instead of taking a move action (to attain a flanking position, giving both himself and his ally a +2) or simply take another attack action are very slim indeed. There are a lot of actions like this - the arcane strike feat, studied target etc.
Personally I think the best solution is to use the new system, but make a houserule that you have three normal actions and one swift action each round. Whether or not you can combine your one swift action and a normal action to do multiple swift actions is up to each GM.
So how do Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler fuction with this new system?
How do lots of things in general work that change something from Standard -> Move or Move- > Swift. Do they just do nothing now?
Generally speaking, a standard action takes two actions and a move action takes one. So something that goes from standard -> Move usually goes from 2 actions to 1 action. Swift actions are still one action, so Move --> Swift makes no difference now.