Hi there! Simple question here. If a Mindchemist(or Alchemist with the Cognatogen discovery) uses a Cognatogen and gains a +4 in Int and uses Fox's Cunning afterwards, will it stack?
So the +4 of Cognatogen, will it stack with the +2 of Fox's Cunning?
Thanks ;)
One bonus is alchemical (cognatogen) and the other is enchantment (fox's cunning). They stack. Enjoy a +8 bonus to int.
Alright, thanks!
Now I'm on the subject anyway. If I for example have +5 int normally and I am a lvl 4 mindchemist, this would mean that I have a daily use of bombs of 9(class level + int). Now if I were to add that +8, would that daily use increase to a maximum of 17?
Of course that'll take in consideration that it doesn't renew every time I increase my int more than once per day and things like that.
For the duration of your increased Int, you'd have extra bombs, just as a Cleric with Eagle's Splendor would have 2 extra Channels for that duration.
But I thought that increase to ability score does not allow increase in things per day?
Here's some light reading =)
I'm going to assume you mean all three the bits about Temporary ability scores?
Yup!
I believe they all came out at the same time, even.
Okay thanks! Well it's almost half past 1 am over here so I'm giving my DM this link so he can read it later on.
If you don't mind, can you check this topic again a bit later for possible updates? It's really unclear on how temporary ability scores are handled and for a long time we've assumed that things like these are like spells per day for a caster. Meaning that they only increase if it's a permanent increase and not a temporary. So it's a bit hard to change from that setting.
Though it's still possible that he would rule against it. It's still his final decision of course :)
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It's really unclear on how temporary ability scores are handled and for a long time we've assumed that things like these are like spells per day for a caster. Meaning that they only increase if it's a permanent increase and not a temporary. So it's a bit hard to change from that setting.
The TL;DR I posted up thread should answer all of your questions (it's copied and pasted from the FAQ).
Imagine a Cleric wearing a Headband of Charisma +4, which bestows a permanent +4 Enhancement bonus to the wearer's Charisma for as long as it is worn. That Cleric gains two more uses of Channel Energy per day from wearing it (among other things).
Now imagine that same Cleric instead benefitting from a casting of Eagle's Splendor. Same +4 Enhancement bonus, but this time it's from a temporary source. According to the FAQ, this temporary bonus should be handled, in all ways, as though that Cleric was wearing a headband.
If a Paladin was the target instead, they'd gain 2 more Lay on Hands (among other things).
If a Sorcerer was the target, they'd gain more bonus spells from having a high casting stat.
If a _X_ was the target, they'd gain _+Y_ per day.
The reason there's 3 FAQs is because there are so many corner cases that people might've continued to debate unless they could all be addressed at the same time.
(which, IIRC, all revolved around the spell Paragon Surge. It was a sad day for Half-elves everywhere)
I don't think this is correct.
Ability Scores[/url]] {. . .}
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
{. . .}
So Fox's Cunning etc. don't last long enough to give you bonuses for having a high ability score, other than increases to immediate-use bonuses as noted in the Temporary Bonuses section above the one I quoted (on the same page).
Think about what would happen if you COULD gain extra uses of things (spells, Bombs, Lay on Hands, etc.) from temporary ability score increases:
Party of Paladins and 1 Sorcerer just barely standing after The Big Fight, all out of Lay on Hands. They have found a Headband of Charisma +2, enough bonus to give each of them another Lay on Hands. So they pass it around. Each one puts it on and uses a Lay on Hands, then passes it on to the next Paladin. After all is done, they agree that it will give the greatest benefit on their Sorcerer, so the last Paladin passes it on. Now you have all of the Paladins in the party each having negative 1 uses of Lay on Hands. How is that supposed to work?
So Fox's Cunning etc. don't last long enough to give you bonuses for having a high ability score, other than increases to immediate-use bonuses as noted in the Temporary Bonuses section above the one I quoted (on the same page).
Seems to me that the above-quoted FAQ specifically contradicted this stance, and was intended to put such arguments to bed permanently.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
(...)
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
So as long as the duration of the temporary effect lasts, you should get extra daily uses of whatever powers key off of those stats, even if it opens the door, on rare occasions, to headband cheese.
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UnArcaneElection, you've quoted a third party site as your evidence.
d20pfsrd is not affiliated with Paizo. They're a fan-based site that means well, but can get things wrong.
The quotes I've provided are from the official FAQ.
Alright, after being annoyed to hell by me about it(more so because I wanted to avoid a group discussion about this which would be an even worse hell) my DM acknowledges what the FAQ said and will implement this concept.
I thank him for his everlasting patience with me ^^;
Thanks for the help!
UnArcaneElection, you've quoted a third party site as your evidence.
d20pfsrd is not affiliated with Paizo. They're a fan-based site that means well, but can get things wrong.
The quotes I've provided are from the official FAQ.
Okay, the FAQ may have changed some things, but here's the original PRD (and let's see if I can avoid botching the formatting this time):
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Now, the FAQ after this may supercede the above, but it creates weird situations like what I was talking about above in which characters having abilities with a limited number of uses per day can squeeze more out by passing around a +Stat item, and then end up with a negative number of uses per day after passing the item on to the next person; this potentially includes even spells (Gasp!).
I originally quoted the d20pfsrd.com PRD because I knew where to find the information there (and for the most part that site is easier to navigate), but the Paizo PRD gave me the same thing, just arranged differently.
I don't think bonus spells are an issue in practical terms. A caster might gain extra spell slots but won't be able to use them without 8 hours rest and 15 minutes to an hour to ready or prepare them (for spontaneous and prepared casters respectively).
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I don't think bonus spells are an issue in practical terms. A caster might gain extra spell slots but won't be able to use them without 8 hours rest and 15 minutes to an hour to ready or prepare them (for spontaneous and prepared casters respectively).
I don't know why a spontaneous caster would need to rest to use a spell slot they haven't already used. And as for prepared casters, it's a little harder, but the wizard can easily prepare another spell in the duration of Fox's Cunning with the Fast Study arcane talent.
I've got another question regarding the alchemist and might as well ask it here instead of opening a new topic.
Combat states
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
I'm assuming that a bomb does not class as a thrown weapon because it's a thrown splash weapon but all the same, will my STR be added to damage?
The Bomb class feature answers this.
You add your Intelligence modifier to the damage.
Which is preferable, for the Int-based Alchemist.
Yeah I got that part of course but what I wonder if the Strength modifier is added because it is thrown. Just looking for ways to add even more damage :P.
Probably not going to work but if you don't ask you don't know for sure right? :)So basically aside from the text in the Bomb Class feature which states 1d6 + Intelligence modifier and 1d6 for every odd level, can you add the Strength modifier because of the text I showed earlier.
You do not get to add the strength modifier, no.
You do not get to add the strength modifier, no.
I figured that yeah but what's the reasoning? I'd say because the bombs are glass bottles which can't sustain the force they were thrown with. A rock on the other hand would sustain the force and therefore pass the force onto its target.
Here's some light reading =)
Did they ever give any indication why they ruled it that way? At least in the extra-stuff-per-day cases, which seem like they could (and IMHO should) have easily been excluded? The rest makes sense to me.
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Here's some light reading =)Did they ever give any indication why they ruled it that way?
IIRC, it just had to do with simplicity.
"Things should be the same, or they should be different"
Bull's Strength gave you all the bonuses of having a higher Strength, and Bear's Endurance gave you the hit points of having a higher Constitution.
There wasn't really a good reason to say that <this> bonus applies, but <that similar bonus over there> does not.
Consistency is key in running a game with so many variables.
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So it seems the rule is: If you add the ability modifier, then you can apply the temporary ability increase. If you have to look it up in a table, then you don't.
With the following two exceptions: Skill points (not affected), and carrying capacity (affected).
That seems overly broad and I am not sure it was their intention.
That FAQ entry mentions bonus 7 times, and says it is the "anything" that the "ability score bonus" affects (not just the ability score, which would explain why "bonus spells per day" is not affected, since that depends on the actual score, not the modifier).
Bonus has a specific meaning:Bonus definition:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores.
I am not sure uses per day falls into that category. But I can't say for sure either way.
Alright, thanks!
Now I'm on the subject anyway. If I for example have +5 int normally and I am a lvl 4 mindchemist, this would mean that I have a daily use of bombs of 9(class level + int). Now if I were to add that +8, would that daily use increase to a maximum of 17?
Of course that'll take in consideration that it doesn't renew every time I increase my int more than once per day and things like that.
One big thing to note here is you confuse a stat and a stat bonus. A stat gives a stat bonus of (stat-10)/2 so in order to have a +5 intelligence bonus you have to have a intelligence of 20. The bonus' you listed add to the stat and not directly to the stat bonus, so if you had both buffs up your intelligence would be a 28 which would give you an intelligence bonus of +9.
This would give you bombs/day of 13 not 17 as per your example, and would increase your bombs damage and splash damage by +9 instead of only +5.
Note here the actual increase to the crunchy numbers here is +4 and not +8 because it has to pass through the formula.