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Hey guys,
I could really use some help with gathering up all the different outsider types and how they differ from each other fluff-wise.
Aeon, Agathion, Angel, Archon, Asura, Azata
Daemon, Demodand, Demon, Devil, Div
Inevitable, Protean, Psychopomp, Qlippoth
Do Genies fit into this scheme on the same level as all others? Or are they different from the others somehow? What about Oni and Kami? Also the same kind of stuff? And Rakshasa, which I'm used to thinking (from previous editions) as a different sort of monster than demons and devils? Are these all now the same sort of stuff as demons/devils?
A and D seem especially prominent as initial letters -- is there any significance to that? Like does it imply their alignment? Are As good and Ds evil?
There are just so many that reading their Bestiary entries I feel like I'm drowning in all the information and constantly mix up which is which. Can anybody boil down each race in 25 words or less how they differ from the others? Do we really need six different Good outsider categories? Are they all distinct from each other somehow?
Am I missing any outsiders that should be there?
Is there a tree hierarchy like are demodands or divs sub-categories of demons or devils, or on an equal level to them? Are any of them sub-categories of others, or are all the listed outsiders on the same level?
Are some outsider categories bound to a single alignment? Are all of them? Do some of the above outsiders have varying alignments? Or are they all a single alignment?
I would really appreciate any and all clarifications.
Well, first, that's quite a few questions.
Could write a book.
I advise you go to Archives of Nethys Monsters and read through all the various basic outsider entries.
Asuras are LE, so no. Not all As are good.
Genies are elemental outsiders, basically air/earth/fire/water to the others good/evil/law/chaos.
Rakshasas, oni, and kami are native outsiders.
Basically spirits that take physical form on the Material Plane.
Again, read their individual entries.
We need the different types of outsiders for the same reason we need the different alignments.
Each outsider personifies their alignment.
Devils are lawful and evil, evil but playing by the rules.
Demons are chaotic and evil, evil not bound by the rules.
Etc.
No, the outsiders are not bound to "their" alignment, but their nature usually makes them that alignment.
While succubus paladins are a thing, that is the very, very, rare exception.
Most of the ones you mentioned do have different alignments, but some share alignment.
Devils and Asuras are both LE, but are both very different creatures.
Bigrig has stated it well
Another great place to go and look for sort of quick guides is The Pathfinder Wiki
Specifically: Outsiders
If it helps, here's Outsiders by home plane (Note the as some, like Angel have more than one home plane are not always the same alignment and not exceptions to the rule, Or like Div's they may not have the alignment of their home plane)
Heaven (LG) - Archons, Angels
Nirvana (NG) - Agathions, Angels
Elysium (CG) - Azatas, Angels
Axis (LN) - Axiomites, Inevitables
The Boneyard (TN) - Psychopomps
Maelstrom (CN) - Proteans
Hell (LE) - Devils, Asuras
Abaddon (NE) - Daemons, Divs(CE)
The Abyss (CE) - Demons, Qlippoth, Demodands
Shadow Plane - Kyton (LE)
Any plane - Aeon (TN)
There aren't really tree hierarchies, most are all their own type. And while there is a sort of hierarchy of types (Demons are higher and more powerful than Demodands), each type has it's own internal hierarchy (Balor out-ranks a Succubus, although there are always exceptions somewhere) that makes this more a generalization.
Of note Devils (Asmodeus), Demons (Lamashtu), Qlippoth (Rovagug) and one of good outsider types (Sarenrae), have a Major Deity ascended from their ranks (well, Devils are more; made in a deity's image, aka deity came first), most of the others have Demi-gods.
If it helps, everyone accidentally gets them mixed up sometimes.
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If it helps, everyone accidentally gets them mixed up sometimes.
That helps a lot actually. :)
Thank you to both of you for your help. I guess maybe if I tried to boil them down myself, it might stick with me better, and maybe I could use this thread as a reference to come back to when I need a refresher.
Devils (LE): Contract guys, businessmen, lawyers
Asuras (LE): Anti-god guys, sort of Hindu inspired names?
Divs (NE): Want to cause suffering, hate mortals
Daemons (NE): Want to destroy everything, hate mortals
Qlippoth (CE): Want to destroy everything, hate mortals, lovecraftian amorphous
Demons (CE): Want to destroy everything, want to prolong pain and suffering
Reading their Bestiary fluff, divs, daemons, qlippoth and demons don't seem all that different. They're all just rar destroy everything hate hate hate, without a clear direction that I can squeeze out of the descriptions.
If it helps, the Div entry has this quote:
While demons exist to destroy, devils yearn to corrupt and control, and daemons seek the death of all things, the foul beings known as divs strive to ruin and despoil all things created by mortals.And
all qlippoth possess within their minds a burning hatred of mortal life, particularly humanoids, whom they know to be the primary seeds of sin.
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A note on the difference between demons and daemons- demons do not want to (intentionally) destroy the world. They enjoy the world- so many nice things to break. Unfortunately...they tend to have a poor sense of boundaries, and as such they might accidentally kill everyone, leaving no one left to torture. Well, there are always other worlds to play with. Basically? Short sightedness of a captain planet villain.
Daemons understand their end game- they believe existence is meaningless, so why not end it all? Of course, ignoring all those meaningless 'morals' and enjoying yourself on the high by drinking souls is just as valid as trying to save kittens, in that case. Both happen because you feel like it. Anyway, the thing with daemons is that they tend to focus on causes of death, and the destruction of personal relationships. They are trying to 'prove a point'. Many depictions of the joker tend to fall into this kind of category (with the obsession with batman since since he is a huge symbol of meaning and trying to salvage this trashpile)
More notes-
Qlippoth have an end goal as well- before mortals came along, their realm was all nice and mind boggingly and horribly twisted in their favor. Now, there is an infinite horde of demons messing up the place, forcing them into the crevices and shadows. They don't like that. But with new demons born from evil mortals all the time, it is a losing battle. So cut off the source- kill all mortals, and then you can start to whittle the demon horde down. End goal- "Get off me lawn, ye dern kids!"
Asuras hate gods because, compared to the Judea-Christian interpretation of gods....Golarion's are just as short sighted and a-holish as mortals. Steal something from me? Curse you into horrible twisted monster that wrecks havoc on local mortals. Gods mess up, and still feel like they are oh so superior. Which...honestly, I can vaguely understand. There are like...2 evil gods/demigods to every good one. And people think congressmen are out of touch with the plight of the people... Still, most Asura hardly care for mortals either, and either kick them around to annoy gods, or use them as chess pieces.
Rakshasa- They also aren't big on this whole 'god' thing. Not that they go out of their way about it (they have their whole reincarnation thing that avoids that whole outerplanes nonsense). They would much rather just sit in their castle, having a harem feeding them grapes, and then go out out for a little snack by releasing a prisoner into the death maze for a bit of sport. Kind of like devils really (can be good administrators...but still...evil), without the cosmos spanding plans and hierarchy. Their power plays are usually on the midscale of 'taking over the throne' or 'invading the neighboring kingdom to get new source of tax revenue'.
Between Divs, Daemons, Demons, and Qlippoth, it's also about the motivation behind it. Same as the alignments NE and CE, both get confused and it is a very blurred line between them.
Qlippoth are far older, beginning/before time old. The original owners/rulers of the Abyss (and still rule the deeper levels, and no-one knows how deep it goes). They hate mortals because mortals become demons, their true enemy, who took the abyss away from them.
Demons are the "babies." Created relatively recently, by some enterprizing Daemons. They are the souls of CE mortals given birth by the abyss - they are sins taken to excess, no holding back. They do what they do for fun.
Daemons devour souls, they feed off mortals. They crave destruction, because it gives them food.
Divs are according to "myth" fallen Genies. They worked with mortals, then the relationship broke down, and it went all down hill from there.
I was wrong earlier, Divs are NE not CE, the page I read as a reminder was wrong.
Edit: Lemeres already said it.
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Difference between oni and kami-
Kami are the guardians of the sacred icecream cone. They do everything in their power to insure it stays perfectly cold, perfectly scooped, and with the just right amount of sprinkles. No, you can't have any of the ice cream, eating it would mess it up.
Oni- I am sick of this. I am eating the damn ice cream. And I am not going to share it with anyone. I've spent too long staring at this damn thing, I deserve it the most. I'll punch anyone that says otherwise.
And it kind of devolves from there. Oni then take on a might makes right attitude- the world is there to be enjoyed by those that are willing to take it. And oni are very good at taking things.
After that, you get your typical civil war- good wants to stop selfishness, selfishness says no and escalates the issue and become worse, shots fired back and forth, and humans are the ones to suffer. The typical stuff that made countries like Rahadoum take up atheism (or the philosophy of 'do they really deserve to be called gods?' and 'do we want literal outsiders to fight to decide who gets control over our fates'?)
Side note- I agree with the Asura and Qlippoth, to some extent- the whole demon fiasco was a debacle for any gods that call themselves 'good'. They basically dumped the CE souls like toxic waste in the abyss (instead of trying that...you know... forgiveness and redemption stuff), and they let the problem pile up until some idiot threw a match on the whole powder keg. Sorry if I let this out a bit too much in discussing the subject...and take the whole setting a bit too seriously and literal for a fictional setting that just needed excuses for arbitrary villains.
Azata vs. Archon- Odd couple- "One is a free spirit, and the other is a control freak. But can they get along in order to save the multiverse?"
Or "Artsy elves vs. Stern Dwarves".
Agathion- Forget all these politics, and lets just do the right thing guys. Also, they are the fuzzy animal ones.
Angel- any of the above, really. Maybe a race, and then they side with whichever group speaks to them? To some extent- team good has at least a bit more teamwork across philosophies compared to team evil. At least at a level where you can send each other christmas cards. Or really, mortals respect all the good disciplines, and this is a group born of that unilateral respect.
Aeon- keep the balance. Good? Evil? Order? Chaos? Too much of any of them causes problems. Stop the problem. No matter who you have to kill or help. Or "Team Neutral, kinda nuts flavor".
Psychopomps- in control of keeping the afterlife going. They have a job to do, and being neutral helps them do it. Angels, demons, devils, and daemons all mostly let them do their thing since they keep a good flow of reinforcements going for each side. If they didn't, then people would stop playing ball and souls would be a free for all. Daemons are kind of a pain usually though (preying on souls and eating them, and all). Or "Team Neutral, fair enough flavor".
Ooh, I'm going to right about Kytons. I love them.
Kytons are nihilists, similar to Daemons, but they have their eyes set elsewhere. There obsession with pain and body modification is an extension of their outlook. Too them, everything is meaningless, but pain is something real and tangible. It has more importance than any fleeting fancy. By bringing this pain to everyone else, they are doing a service to the rest of the multiverse.
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Axiomites and Inevitables- Trying to tame the wild frontiers of the outerplanes. Their city, Axis, is the main hub for it all.
Proteans view them as the borg though (the axiomites are equations/programs, and inevitables are robots...so it might not be an unfair comparison). Thus, the huge war between order vs. chaos. It is kind of similar to the qlippoth situation- proteans were there first, and then the gods and the forces of Axis came steam rolling all over the proteans etch-e-sketch (yeah, that seems like a good metaphor for how they see the world- full of possibilities, but each should be temporary). The people of Axis view the proteans as mere mad barbarians, maybe going on the tone of a plague/natural disaster.
Proteans-
"Mortals are so (boring/same/limited). They need to learn how to (change/live/grow). Going with two arms and two legs all their lives....bleh. Trying being a tree sometime. Or a racoon. My cousin Oliver always sings the praises of being a rock for vacation, but I say being a sunset is better. Let me (help/make/force) you to see things a little differently, boring man. You can go back to being human after a couple decades."
Sorry...I saw the multi-speak thing used for proteans once (doubt it is anything official), and I fell in love with it. I mentally picture it as different voices whispering at the same time. Anyway- no set attitude, besides a dislike for order. They might like mortals, they might hate mortals. Depends on the individual and mood at the time. Heck, they might have been mortals, or their dad was a mortal and laid their egg (little set origin, obviously). Still, even if they are benevolent, they might not be too respectful over mortal concerns.
Proteans-
"Mortals are so (boring/same/limited). They need to learn how to (change/live/grow). Going with two arms and two legs all their lives....bleh. Trying being a tree sometime. Or a racoon. My cousin Oliver always sings the praises of being a rock for vacation, but I say being a sunset is better. Let me (help/make/force) you to see things a little differently, boring man. You can go back to being human after a couple decades."
Sorry...I saw the multi-speak thing used for proteans once (doubt it is anything official), and I fell in love with it.
It's pretty official. I started out doing an unofficial version of that in forum posts and some turnovers, but James Sutter did his own take on the same in print first in the Chapter 6 opener for the Gamemastery Guide, and also for an imentesh protean in his novel 'Death's Heretic'. My original version was inspired by the Weaver's speech patterns from China Mieville's 'Perdido Street Station' and was a bit more free flowing and severely lacking in punctuation.
James's take evolved it along further and I really, really like that version that made it to print. It's delightfully weird and makes sense for them in not always making sense. :)
I did a large block of protean speak text in the opening fiction for the 3PP 'Protean Lords of Porphyra' for purple duck games, as well as the opening fiction piece for 'Lords of Law' by Legendary Games (wherein a keketar discusses his/her/its interaction with a variety of lawful outsiders).
Something to point out is that rakshasa of Indian myth have a slightly more complex motivation, but they haven't really been explained that much in Pathfinder yet. So let me preface this with the warning that later information could very well invalidate it, also my knowledge of mythology may be off. They frequently depicted as follow religious laws very well, but only ever serving the letter of the law for their benefit without actually serving the spirit of intention behind them. As a result their society is evil out of neglect and extreme legalism rather than a huge amount of overt malice. Citizens exist because the laws allow it rather than vice versa. Should a noble happen to want to hunt you for sport, then that's how it's going to be so long as he pays the proper fees and observes proper custom.