Making the Quarterstaff whole
*** This is by no means an optimization guild, but rather an attempt at a fun character ***
*** please take this into account when replying – Thank you ***
I am looking at building a Large melee Druid around the Quarterstaff, using Shillelagh as a staple for combat.
Originally I had planned to do this using a Wild Shaping Druid (Apes, Dire Apes, etc)
but your equipment does not grow (e.g. your weapon), rather it merges.
So you would be forced to walk around with a tree truck (Large Quarterstaff),
drop it when Wild Shaping and then pick it up again.
From a role-playing stand point, not very interesting.
The following is what I have come up with instead.
-This character will be played from 1st level on.
Human/Half Orc
- + 2 to Str
Trait
- Magical Lineage (Enlarge)
Druid (Nature Fang)
-Shillelagh
-Slayer Talents (actually important)
-Full caster
Plant Domain (Growth Sub)
- Enlarge as a Swift action
- Enlarge and Righteous Might added to Spell list
Feats
1st Improved Initiative/ (Insert Human Feat)
3rd Power Attack
4th TWF (ST: Ranger Combat Style)
5th Improved Overrun
6th Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff (ST: Weapon Training))
7th Quicken Spell (Quicken Enlarge as 4th level spell)
8th ITWF (ST: Ranger Combat Style)
9th Greater Overrun
10th Double Slice (ST: Ranger Combat Style)
11th Vital Strike
12th Two-Weapon Rend (ST: Ranger Combat Style)
13th Improved Critical (Quarterstaff)
etc.
Nature Fang Archtype
Since I could not use Wild Shape “well” with the Quarterstaff I looked around and found the Nature Fang Archtype.
The Slayer Talents let you acquire the TWF chain without the Dex requirement, allowing us to focus on Str and avoid Weapon Finesse.
Studied Target offsets the ¾ BAB and helps with TWF/Power Attack penalties.
The 1d6 Sneak attack is just an extra.
Strengths
Swift action Enlarge (as SU or Spell) and cast Shillelagh (3d6 Double weapon)
Then use overrun to “get behind” opponents to provide flank and gain 1d6 sneak.
Being large with flank and Shillelagh one does 4d6 + bonuses.
There is added versatility as you can two weapon fight or two handed fight with Power attack and Vital strike.
Overrun is used to assist getting around the battlefield since we don’t have acrobatics.
I purposely left out Quarterstaff Master and Weapon Specialization in favor of Improved/Greater Overrun.
If there is time to prep, Righteous Might (at higher levels), Barkskin, Stoneskin, and other Defensive spells.
When not in Melee, or unable to reach for various reasons, you still have a full caster to fall back on.
Weaknesses
Low AC with limited armor, lower Dex and being large (spells will help),
no magic weapon (since using Shillelagh) and possibly over coming high damage reduction
(hoping vital strike will help, 7d6 + bonuses when large and flanking).
Casting Shillelagh every encounter. Even with Extend, at 10th level that is only 20min.
Should our DM allow it I will be trying to get Permanency cast on Shillelagh.
Maybe a Lesser Metamagic Rod with Extend would at least help.
Having played D&D for a long time I am familiar with the in and outs,
that said this is only my second campaign in Pathfinder and want to ensure a character that can last into the higher levels.
Any thoughts, recommendations, or holes that I may have missed?
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Seconding Goliath Druid.
Turning into a big damn troll with a quarterstaff works great, and it specifically works as Form of the Giant (ie: your gear DOES increase in size to suit your new form). It also lets you to cast spells/talk/etc. while "Wild Shaped" because your new form can talk and do all that stuff normally AND you get to wear your normal armor, helping bolster your AC. You can still choose the Growth subdomain as a Goliath Druid, and you even get Enlarge Person on your spell list (though you can only cast it on yourself).
That said, Nature Fang is absolutely a valid option for your build. The extra feats/slayer talents, some sneak attack dice and studied target are definitely strong options.
Admittedly Goliath Druid is very intriguing!
I had not read through this Archtype.
I would love to get Giant Form I and II as spells into the Nature Fang build.
These would all be great.
· +8 size bonus to Strength
· -2 penalty to Dexterity
· +6 size bonus to Constitution
· +6 natural armor bonus
· low-light vision
· +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed
The concern being with –2 Dex and no more Slayer talents TWF is pretty much out.
Would need 19 Dex and missing a lot of feats.
That would leave the build (using Shillelagh) as a two handed weapon only, though getting a little more out of it with the ability to be Huge.
Worth considering as you hold onto Wild Shape. Being able to swap out Enlarge Person anytime is nice also.
The action economy would improve as once you hit 6th you can Wild Shape into a Giant for 12 hours of the day.
That said, by 8th there is little need for Enlarge Person.
Would these be the feats then?
Feats
1st Improved Initiative/ (Insert Human Feat)
3rd Power Attack
5th Improved Overrun
7th Quicken Spell (Quicken Shillelagh as 4th level spell)
9th Vital Strike
11th Greater Overrun
13th Improved Critical (Quarterstaff)
15th Improved Vital Strike
Comparing the two at 12th Nature Fang seems to have the advantage.
- Goliath
+9/+4 BAB
+10 (+15) Str (with Size) 18 starting +3 levels +4 item +6(Giant form)
+1 (+1) Quarterstaff (w/ Shillelagh)
+2 Flank
+1 (+1) Random party bonus (Bard/Haste/Prayer/etc)
-3 (+9) Power Attack
+20/+15 (+26)
Fang
+9/+4 BAB
+8 (+8) Str (with Size) 18 starting +3 levels +4 item +2(Enlarge)
+1 (+1) Quarterstaff (w/ Shillelagh)
+2 Flank
+1 (+1) Random party bonus (Bard/Haste/Prayer/etc)
+3 (+3) Studied Target
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 TWF
+23/+18 (+13)
+23/+18 (+13)
+20/+15 (3D6+26)
+20 (6D6+26) – Vital Strike
vs
+23/+18 (3D6+13) + Sneak (1D6) + Two-Weapon Rend (1D10+12)
+23/+18 (3D6+13)
+22 (6D6+26) – Vital Strike w/Power Attack
At 14th the Goliath gains an additional +2 Str and D6 to the Quarterstaff for being Huge (Giant Form II).
At 15th Improved Vital Strike + Huge + Shillelagh is sweet.
12D6 :) that is a lot of levels to wait though.
Originally with the Nature Fang I choose Quicken on Enlarge Person since it’s a Round to cast.
Maybe with the Nature Fang build, taking Quicken on Shillelagh and getting Permanency on Enlarge Person
would be an easier way to go. After all, it is in the core rules already.
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You'd have to burn through your spells more quickly with Nature Fang, and you can only be Large for minutes/level a day (because you can only cast your Domain spells once a day) instead of hours/level a day as the Goliath Druid. You also would build differently (you need way more Dex to make the TWF prereqs, so you probably have lower stats elsewhere).
That said, the Studied Target boost probably makes that a moot point most of the time. I say choose the one that feels more fun to you.
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Just be a halfling/goblin, bring the Dex up to 17/15 in PB, and go nuts.
Hold up. Halfling goliath druid with a sling staff. Sling staff functions as a club, so shillelagh could arguably work just fine* (and it does the exact same damage as the quarterstaff, thanks to the spell). Not only does this justify the halfling in my mind, it gives an awesome bit of foreshadowing for when the halfling starts hurling boulders.
Plus, I just want a huge druid stomping through the village, knocking over huts, so someone can scream: "IT'S A GIANT HALFLING!"
*Shut up, let me have this.
Just throwing this out there because I have no idea what latitude your GM might allow you, but a one level dip into the Living Monolith prestige class might be just the ticket for this sort of build.
+2 saves vs. mind-effects, +2 saves vs. death effects and a swift action Enlarge Person 3/day is nothing to sneeze at. In addition you can keep your spell-casting unabated or grab Toughness for free as well.
If it was the old Living Monolith with full BAB, I might agree. But the new one with 3/4 BAB I don't care for.
Well, you'd only be taking a 1 level dip and, when Enlarged, you're considered to have full BAB regardless.
You'd have to burn through your spells more quickly with Nature Fang, and you can only be Large for minutes/level a day (because you can only cast your Domain spells once a day) instead of hours/level a day as the Goliath Druid. You also would build differently (you need way more Dex to make the TWF prereqs, so you probably have lower stats elsewhere).
That said, the Studied Target boost probably makes that a moot point most of the time. I say choose the one that feels more fun to you.
I was under the impression that because Druids did not have Domain slots that Domain spells were added to their spell list. Having gone back and reread Nature Bond I see that they add a Domain Slot, my bad. One of those little Pathfinder things I am still adjusting to.
If you are referring to going TWF with Nature Fang, one of the benefits is that you don't need to meet the prereqs (i.e. Dex) since you are getting those feats through the Slayer Talent(Ranger Combat Style).
So I guess the difference comes down to being Large more often and more easily (Goliath) or more combat options switching between TWF and two-handed fighting. I appreciate being shown the Goliath Druid, but between the two I think I prefer the versatility and the imagery of the TWF Nature Fang.
Can one use the "Preferred Spell" feat to spontaneously cast domain spells in non-domain slots? The only limiter appears to be "one spell which you have the ability to cast".
Just throwing this out there because I have no idea what latitude your GM might allow you, but a one level dip into the Living Monolith prestige class might be just the ticket for this sort of build.
Thank you for the suggestion. The entry requirements seem a little convoluted for our gaming table though. Would have to come up with a good back story or work around (e.g. a Dwarven Druid becoming a Living Monolith, or a campaign revolving around an Egyptian motif)
You'd have to burn through your spells more quickly with Nature Fang, and you can only be Large for minutes/level a day (because you can only cast your Domain spells once a day) instead of hours/level a day as the Goliath Druid. You also would build differently (you need way more Dex to make the TWF prereqs, so you probably have lower stats elsewhere).
That said, the Studied Target boost probably makes that a moot point most of the time. I say choose the one that feels more fun to you.
I was under the impression that because Druids did not have Domain slots that Domain spells were added to their spell list. Having gone back and reread Nature Bond I see that they add a Domain Slot, my bad. One of those little Pathfinder things I am still adjusting to.
If you are referring to going TWF with Nature Fang, one of the benefits is that you don't need to meet the prereqs (i.e. Dex) since you are getting those feats through the Slayer Talent(Ranger Combat Style).
So I guess the difference comes down to being Large more often and more easily (Goliath) or more combat options switching between TWF and two-handed fighting. I appreciate being shown the Goliath Druid, but between the two I think I prefer the versatility and the imagery of the TWF Nature Fang.
Can one use the "Preferred Spell" feat to spontaneously cast domain spells in non-domain slots? The only limiter appears to be "one spell which you have the ability to cast".
Another aspect of nature fang is that the sneak attack + choice of bludgeoning weapon opens up a couple 3 feats which make subdual relatively potent with bludgeoner/sap adept/sap master if your GM is one to throw "capture this person alive" at you.
bludgeoner/sap adept/sap master - sounds fun :)
Sap Master needs 3D6 Sneak though and I only have 1D6.
The Bludgeoner feat alone might be a nice add-on for the missing Human bonus feat if I cannot use Preferred Spell with a Domain spell.
Then I can run around like Friar Tuck and knock people on the head without killing them.
You can get more sneak attack via the Crocodile Domain if you want it. You'd loose the enlarge domain power and spell that way though.
True, Crocodile would add additional sneak (2D6 by 11th level).
That said going Nature Fang with the Crocodile Domain we have strayed completely away from the concept of being a Large Druid with Shillelagh.