-5 on full attacks for monsters?


Rules Questions


Does the -5 to additional attacks made with a full attack action apply to monsters?

If so is this penalty reflected in their beastiary stats or do I have to subject 5 from the stats that are listed?


If a creature is attacking with multiple Natural Attacks, there is no -5 to additional attacks. If the monster is attacking with weapons using iterative attacks due to high BAB, the successive -5 penalties will already appear in the stat blocks.


There is no universal -5 to additional attacks.

Iterative attacks: This applies to manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes only. If you can subtract 5 from your BAB and still have a positive number you have an extra attack.
For example, if your BAB is 11 and you are using a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike) then you have 3 attacks: 11/6/1 (before other bonuses or penalties)

Natural attacks: This is what most "monsters" have. These are attacks like claws, bite, etc.
Primary natural attacks are at full BAB regardless of the number of primary attacks.
Secondary natural attacks are at BAB-5 regardless of the number of secondary attacks.

Example: Claws and bites are primary while Tail is secondary so you get: 2 Claws @BAB, Bite @BAB, Tail @BAB-5


If the monster uses an attack that would be subjected to the -5 penalty for additional attacks due to base attack bonus, it will be precalculated into the stat block.

If the monster just uses natural attacks, they do not get additional attacks due to BAB, so the -5 penalty is not applied.

For example, the bulette. It gets 3 attacks, but they are all natural attacks, so the -5 thing doesn't apply.

In almost all cases, just use the attack bonuses listed, the statblocks will precompute everything for you that are a part of the standard attack routine for the creature.

Sczarni

TyroAmberhelm wrote:
is this penalty reflected in their beastiary stats or do I have to subject 5 from the stats that are listed?

If you look at various statblocks you'll find that the -5 penalty, when combining natural attacks with manufactured attacks, has already been factored for you.

If you as the GM give a monster with claw attacks a manufactured weapon that isn't in its statblock, then yes, you'll have to apply the -5 penalty on any remaining natural attacks.


If you're using the monster as listed in the bestiary then don't make any changes. They should already have the penalties included where appropriate (though sometimes errors are made).

Gauss has quoted the rules for you about iterative attacks and natural attacks. Secondary natural attacks are always at a -5, and if you combine natural attacks with manufactured weapons then all natural attacks become secondary. This actually also reduces the strength damage that the natural attacks do from full strength to half.


Thanks guys.

I guess my follow up question would be...

If a Full Attack listing says....

"Attack 1" and "Attack 2" and "Attack 3"

I can use ALL of these attacks?

Sczarni

If something reads, "Bite +9 (1d4+1), 2 Claws +9 (1d3+1)", as an example, then you may perform all three of those attacks during a full attack.

If the critter moves, or is otherwise reduced to just a standard action, you may pick only one.

Sczarni

If the above critter was capable of wielding a weapon, then we'd see a statblock similar to this:

Mace +9 (1d8+1), Bite +4 (1d4), Claw +4 (1d3)


And if I opted to use my bite instead of the mace during a standard action, I could add +5 to it's bite attack?


TyroAmberhelm wrote:
And if I opted to use my bite instead of the mace during a standard action, I could add +5 to it's bite attack?

Correct. In Nefreet's example, if you choose to bite as a standard action it would be Bite +9 (d4+1) from the previous post.

Using a weapon while making an attack with a natural weapon automatically makes the natural weapon a secondary natural weapon which causes it to take a -5 to hit and it gains only 1/2 STR to damage (in this case the difference between +1 or 0).


TyroAmberhelm wrote:
And if I opted to use my bite instead of the mace during a standard action, I could add +5 to it's bite attack?

Yes, that is how it would work. However, that is not explicit in the books.


Also note that using Two-Weapon Fighting adds a whole other level of oddity to the mix.

Combat, Two-Weapon Fighting wrote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Because of how Two-Weapon Fighting works - caring only about your main- and off-hands, if you have, say, a Bite and a Gore Attack, they still attack at BAB-5 because they become Secondary Attacks, but you don't give -2 to them because they're not part of your Main- or Off-Hand swings.

So a Barbarian with a Bastardsword and Shortsword, Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, plus a Bite and Gore Attack, with a BAB of +6, would attack with (before calculating Strength):

+4 (Bastard Sword) / +4 (Shortsword) / +1 (Gore) / +1 (Bite) / -1 (Bastard Sword) / -1 (Shortsword)


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
TyroAmberhelm wrote:
And if I opted to use my bite instead of the mace during a standard action, I could add +5 to it's bite attack?
Yes, that is how it would work. However, that is not explicit in the books.

Well, it IS explicit, but... not concise.

They don't give examples to demonstrate how Primary Natural Attacks work in place of single Attack Action attacks (swords, unarmeds, etc.) well, even though the rules spell it out.

Every Natural Attack you gain is listed as either a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack by the source that grants it (unless it's native to your creature type, in which case you consult the rules section about Natural Attacks in the Bestiaries).

A Bite is a Primary Natural Attack, meaning when made by itself or in tandem with other Primary Natural Attacks, it's made at your highest BAB.

Natural Attacks can be made in addition to your Iterative Attacks (which are manufactured weapons & Unarmed Strikes) during a Full Attack Action.

Primary Attacks are reduced to Secondary Attack status (BAB-5), when made in tandem with Manufactured/Unarmed Attacks as part of a Full Attack Action.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
TyroAmberhelm wrote:
And if I opted to use my bite instead of the mace during a standard action, I could add +5 to it's bite attack?
Yes, that is how it would work. However, that is not explicit in the books.

Well, it IS explicit, but... not concise.

They don't give examples to demonstrate how Primary Natural Attacks work in place of single Attack Action attacks (swords, unarmeds, etc.) well, even though the rules spell it out.

Every Natural Attack you gain is listed as either a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack by the source that grants it (unless it's native to your creature type, in which case you consult the rules section about Natural Attacks in the Bestiaries).

A Bite is a Primary Natural Attack, meaning when made by itself or in tandem with other Primary Natural Attacks, it's made at your highest BAB.

Natural Attacks can be made in addition to your Iterative Attacks (which are manufactured weapons & Unarmed Strikes) during a Full Attack Action.

Primary Attacks are reduced to Secondary Attack status (BAB-5), when made in tandem with Manufactured/Unarmed Attacks as part of a Full Attack Action.

You are quite right.

I was referring to the entry that explains combining natural attacks with weapon attacks. I was thinking that because it says "all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks", that it was confusingly exclusionary of the default rules...upon re-reading the entry: "When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks..."

Oops. However, my own 'slip-of-the-mind' is a great example of how these things become confusing. And I have pretty high system mastery.

The exception based nature of the rules is fine (even great), but the fact that nearly all exceptions are not called out as such, nor do they reference the general rule, is where confusion and interpretation (and religious wars) begin.

As you say, not concise. In a perfect world under a perfect sky, I would love to see Pathfinder rewritten with about a quarter of the explanatory text, three times as many tables, and TEN times as many bullet point call outs. With little shaded areas that point out important rules notes. As well as sidebars discussing the logic behind the rules.

I think the book would be the same length. Shorter if you treated spell descriptions like this.

-Cheers

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