The rule regarding cost multiplier specifically references multiplying the costs against the cost of the armor type (the costs listed on CRB Table 6-6 or UEq Table 1-1). Not multiplying all costs.
Armor for Unusual Creatures
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures (such as horses) have different costs and weights from those given on Table 6–6. Refer to the appropriate line on Table 6–8 and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question.
Ultimate Equipment is worded the same way.
ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and non-humanoid creatures (such as horses) have different prices and weights from those given on Table 1–1: Armor and Shields. Refer to the appropriate line on Table 1–2: Armor for Unusual Creatures and apply the multipliers to price and weight for the armor type in question.
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Whether your armor is Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, or Huge, the Mithral cost is the same.
It's "other Mithral items" that have a cost per pound.
Yes, in a home game, it's technically possible to abuse this and melt down Huge Mithral items and sell the material for profit. Hopefully your GM is competent enough to say "No".
Pathfinder is not a game of economics. The pricing for several materials is not consistent. A set of Large-sized Mithral Fullplate has the same cost modifier as a set of Small-sized Mithral Fullplate, but the price of a set of Dragonhide Fullplate will vary with size.
If you search this forum, you'll see this is a fairly frequently asked question. It was just asked earlier this week, even.
Kazaan, do you have any rules to back that up? I have cited the rules in question that clearly state what the multiplier applies to (armor type cost).
Do you have any wording that states that the type of armor includes special materials?
There are only three places that "Armor Type" is listed in the CRB.
Donning Armor, page 153: Breaks down armor types by name, no mention of special materials.
Armor for Unusual Creatures, page 153: Where it states that the multiplier applies to armor type (the rule in question, also no mention of special materials).
Barding, page 162: Where it states that Table 6-6 is where you can make barding out of any of the armor types on table 6-6. This clearly states that armor types are on table 6-6.
Now, you can continue to ignore the statement that the multiplier to price applies to the "armor type" and instead apply it to the total cost, but that is not what the rules state.
Nefreet, what is your "No." in response to?
The rule regarding cost multiplier specifically references multiplying the costs against the cost of the armor type (the costs listed on CRB Table 6-6 or UEq Table 1-1). Not multiplying all costs.
Armor for Unusual Creatures
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures (such as horses) have different costs and weights from those given on Table 6–6. Refer to the appropriate line on Table 6–8 and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question.
That's all find and good.
This quote says to apply the multiplier to cost.
So what is "cost"? What does this game term mean?
If you look at the Mithral special material, it lists the "cost" modifier as +1,000gp for light armor. Every other special material has "cost" modifiers too. So all these materials are modifying the "cost" of the item.
Then you determine the price of the item for a large creature and you have to multiply the "cost" by x2. It looks to me like the "cost" of a chain shirt is 100gp, and the "cost" of a mithral chain shirt is 1,100gp. These would be the "cost" values that you would multiply x2 for a large creature.
As Kazaan pointed out, there are other rules where precedent is set that you apply additive modifiers to a value before multiplying it. I can think of no reason to multiply the size modifier first and then add the mithral price second. Nothing i the equipment chapter or supports doing the math in this order.
In light of other precedents set for adding then mulitplying, and in light of the fact that it just simply makes no sense that the large mithral shirt weighs 200% of the weight of a medium mithral shirt but only costs 109% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
And the tiny mithral is 1/10 the weight of medium mithral shirt so it should only cost 1/10 right since less material was used? Or off the normal pricing for half. So now I'm using 10% of the weight of medium mithral but at 50% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
large mithral shirt weighs 400% of the weight of a Small mithral shirt but would costs 200% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
I feel if there's no change in cost for medium to small mithral, then likewise there's no increase in the cost for large mithral. Mithral price is outside the price of armor.
And the tiny mithral is 1/10 the weight of medium mithral shirt so it should only cost 1/10 right since less material was used? Or off the normal pricing for half. So now I'm using 10% of the weight of medium mithral but at 50% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
Don't forget to factor in the masterwork value, part of the mithral cost, and certainly the most nebulous as far as calculating how material, weight, and size factor into masterwork pricing.
large mithral shirt weighs 400% of the weight of a Small mithral shirt but would costs 200% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
The small/medium thing where the price and weight are the same is a weird mechanical, metagamist construct created by the devs to keep small creatures from having an advantage by getting gear for lower prices.
At this level, comparing small to medium, that chart breaks away from common sense for gamist reasons. The rest of the chart is more sensible.
I feel if there's no change in cost for medium to small mithral, then likewise there's no increase in the cost for large mithral. Mithral price is outside the price of armor.
You're welcome to feel that way, but the pricing chart for oversize armor seem to disagree. Let me restate your viewpoint to make sure I understand it correctly:
"I know that there is no cost difference for going from small to medium armor but there is a cost difference for going from medium to large. Likewise, there is no cost difference for going from small to medium mithral armor and I choose to ignore the established cost difference for going from medium to large mithral armor, because, well, for some reason making it out of mithral somehow makes it behave like it is smaller than it actually is."
That sound about right?
I feel if there's no change in cost for medium to small mithral, then likewise there's no increase in the cost for large mithral. Mithral price is outside the price of armor.You're welcome to feel that way, but the pricing chart for oversize armor seem to disagree. Let me restate your viewpoint to make sure I understand it correctly:
"I know that there is no cost difference for going from small to medium armor but there is a cost difference for going from medium to large. Likewise, there is no cost difference for going from small to medium mithral armor and I choose to ignore the established cost difference for going from medium to large mithral armor, because, well, for some reason making it out of mithral somehow makes it behave like it is smaller than it actually is."
That sound about right?
No, but kinda close. the armor's base cost is increased, but the price to make it out of mithral is not increased. to use what you said but change it to be correct.
"I know that there is no cost difference for going from small to medium armor but there is a cost difference for going from medium to large. Likewise, there is no cost difference for going from mithral small to medium mithral and I feel that there's no cost difference for getting mithral on larger or smaller armor. Modify the base armor price as appropriate for the size change, and then add the special material price afterwards. Because if you look at the prices for mithral it says that adding mithral to light armor is +1000 GP. So if it's large light, huge light, or fine light it's +1000gp to make it out of mithral."
Nefreet, what is your "No." in response to?
It appears whoever I was replying to simply deleted their comment.
IIRC, they were asking if a tiny-sized Mithral armor would cost less.
Theirs was a simple question, mine was a simple reply.
that was me, I had made that to respond to a message but didn't quote it. And then people posted before mine, so I removed it and waited for it to come up again to mention it again.
The rule regarding cost multiplier specifically references multiplying the costs against the cost of the armor type (the costs listed on CRB Table 6-6 or UEq Table 1-1). Not multiplying all costs.
Armor for Unusual Creatures
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures (such as horses) have different costs and weights from those given on Table 6–6. Refer to the appropriate line on Table 6–8 and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question.That's all find and good.
This quote says to apply the multiplier to cost.
So what is "cost"? What does this game term mean?
If you look at the Mithral special material, it lists the "cost" modifier as +1,000gp for light armor. Every other special material has "cost" modifiers too. So all these materials are modifying the "cost" of the item.
Then you determine the price of the item for a large creature and you have to multiply the "cost" by x2. It looks to me like the "cost" of a chain shirt is 100gp, and the "cost" of a mithral chain shirt is 1,100gp. These would be the "cost" values that you would multiply x2 for a large creature.
As Kazaan pointed out, there are other rules where precedent is set that you apply additive modifiers to a value before multiplying it. I can think of no reason to multiply the size modifier first and then add the mithral price second. Nothing i the equipment chapter or supports doing the math in this order.
In light of other precedents set for adding then mulitplying, and in light of the fact that it just simply makes no sense that the large mithral shirt weighs 200% of the weight of a medium mithral shirt but only costs 109% of the cost - makes no sense at all.
You are ignoring the "to cost...for the armor type". If it was broad 'cost' then it would exclude the armor type part.
It is just like crafting magic items. You halve the total price to find the cost right? Wrong.
You halve the magic price, not the price of materials, components, etc. They are added in afterwards.
There is precedent for it to NOT apply to everything. It only applies to what it is stated to apply to, the cost of the armor type.
You are ignoring the "to cost...for the armor type". If it was broad 'cost' then it would exclude the armor type part.
It is just like crafting magic items. You halve the total price to find the cost right? Wrong.
You halve the magic price, not the price of materials, components, etc. They are added in afterwards.
There is precedent for it to NOT apply to everything. It only applies to what it is stated to apply to, the cost of the armor type.
The cost for full plate is 1500gp. The price for chain shirt is 100gp. Now we mutiply this cost for the armor type. If you want full-plate type armor you get 3000gp, if you want chain shirt type armor then it's 200gp. And then you and the modifiers for mithral. the full plate is heavy so +9000gp for a total of 12000gp. The chain shirt is light so +1000gp so it's 1200gp.
Because if you look at the prices for mithral it says that adding mithral to light armor is +1000 GP. So if it's large light, huge light, or fine light it's +1000gp to make it out of mithral."
Fine.
What are you adding that +1,000gp to?
Answer: You're adding it to the cost of the armor.
Now, when it's large, what are you multiplying?
Answer: You're multiplying the cost of the armor.
the only difference is determining the order by which we apply these modifiers.
So for every armor you have a price (P), a base cost of the armor before modifiers (C), a special material modifier (M) and a size modifier (S).
Your formula is: P = C*S+M
My formula is: P=(C+M)*S
Frankly, I don't know which formula is correct. The rulebook is written so that it could apply either way.
But...
Using your formula allows a mithril chain shirt made for a cat to cost 1,100 and a similar mithril chain shirt made for a tarrasque (me!) to cost 4,200, not even 4x the final cost. So it ways 120x more, but doesn't even cost 4x more. That makes more sense.
Using my formula allows a mithril chain shirt made for a cat to cost 1,100 and a similar mithril chain shirt made for a tarrasque (me!) to cost 35,200, exactly 32x the final cost which still seems cheap since it weighs 120x more than the cat's mithril chain shirt, but it's much closer than the other formula.
Ultimately, I'll always take the one that makes the most sense.
Indeed.
Just as in mathematics, you apply multipliers first, then modifiers second.
1+1×2=3
1+1×2=4
But constructing a formula means understanding what we are referring to, and notating it correctly. If I tell you to multiply the cost by two, and you can determine the cost by adding 1 + 1 then, indeed, the answer is four. You would notate that as (1 + 1) x 2.
Indeed, the entire argument is what is the cost, and whether mithral is part of that before or after the modifier for size, and the rules of mathematics won't help, since understanding the core question would change how we build our formula.
It is obvious that in many places in the rules, the assumption is made that the rules are talking about small and medium creatures, so a failure to specifically address a difference for other size creatures can't be taken as definitive that special rules wouldn't apply.
Special materials do indicate that they modify the cost, and the sizing table also indicates that you multiply the cost. Frankly, I don't see anything that proves in which order you should do your operations, but common sense seems to me that in this case you would add and then multiply, and mithral pricing is, somewhat loosely, connected to the amount of mithral involved.
My google-foo failed to find an example that had been published to see how developers and writers had previously interpreted this, but I would expect that most would add the mithral cost and then multiply by size.
Because if you look at the prices for mithral it says that adding mithral to light armor is +1000 GP. So if it's large light, huge light, or fine light it's +1000gp to make it out of mithral."Fine.
What are you adding that +1,000gp to?
Answer: You're adding it to the cost of the armor.
Now, when it's large, what are you multiplying?
Answer: You're multiplying the cost of the armor.
the only difference is determining the order by which we apply these modifiers.
So for every armor you have a price (P), a base cost of the armor before modifiers (C), a special material modifier (M) and a size modifier (S).
Your formula is: P = C*S+M
My formula is: P=(C+M)*SFrankly, I don't know which formula is correct. The rulebook is written so that it could apply either way.
But...
Using your formula allows a mithril chain shirt made for a cat to cost 1,100 and a similar mithril chain shirt made for a tarrasque (me!) to cost 4,200, not even 4x the final cost. So it ways 120x more, but doesn't even cost 4x more. That makes more sense.
Using my formula allows a mithril chain shirt made for a cat to cost 1,100 and a similar mithril chain shirt made for a tarrasque (me!) to cost 35,200, exactly 32x the final cost which still seems cheap since it weighs 120x more than the cat's mithril chain shirt, but it's much closer than the other formula.
Ultimately, I'll always take the one that makes the most sense.
Well I'm sorry you feel yours makes more sense. The armor type is the armor named on the list, so that's the part you multiply. How much is a large chain shirt? 200gp. Now to make it out of mithral you take the item cost, in this case a large chain shirt, and then add 1000gp. You aren't making a mithral chain shirt large, you're making a large chain shirt out of mithral.
Indeed.
Just as in mathematics, you apply multipliers first, then modifiers second.
1+1×2=3
1+1×2=4
This isn't mathematics.
It's much closer to physics. We're using math to describe features of an object based upon its size and composition. Physics (in an imaginary world).
Order of mathematical operations applies AFTER you determine the correct equation. Not before.
For example, think of Einstein's Theory of Relativity equation: E=mc^2. Order of operation is very important, you have to know to calculate the exponent of c before you multiply by m. But what if, imagine for a moment, that Einstein had worked out his math and found out that E=(mc)^2. Would you then go to Einstein and say "Hey, wait, that's wrong. In math you have to square values BEFORE you multiply!" No, of course not; if that were the actual correct formula, you would just have to use ( ) to change the equation so that you multiply first then do the exponent.
So, first we get the correct equation/formula, then only after that is correct do we worry about actually preforming the calculation according to the mathematical order of operation.
As proof, there are tons of mathematical formulas where the real world requires us to rearrange order of operations to get the correct formula. For example, the area of a trapezoid: A = 1/2(b1+b2)h where you have to add the two bases together before performing any of the multiplication.
Oh, that's exactly like the cost of large mithral armor, you have to add the two costs together before performing any of the multiplication.
I'm not saying adding the costs first is the correct way to price the armor (I did say it makes more sense), but I am definitively saying that the mathematical order of operations is the last thing you need to worry about when trying to think of the right way to price these armors - it's not even applicable. Figure out the right equation first.
You factor the size modifier FIRST to work out the original weight you're starting from, before doing any other calculations.Suppose a piece of medium armor normally costs 5 gp for a Medium sized creature. That armor would cost 10gp for a Large creature.
If that armor were made of mithral, it would cost 4005 for the medium creature.
Would it cost 8010 for the medium creature, or 4010?
So, you also think that a tarrasque-sized mithral chain shirt should weigh 120x more but only cost less than 4x the price of a cat-sized mithral chain shirt?
How does that even remotely make sense to anyone?
If I may, I'll quote myself here:
How does that even remotely make sense to anyone?
Ultimately, this is the crux of it. You can read it either way, modify the cost either way, and you'll be correct per the book. The rules do not specify the order of applying these modifiers here.
Each GM is on his own, so this probably needs to become an Advice thread rather than a Rules Questions thread since, at this point, we're only discussing our own internal assessment of game logic and personal preference.
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If I may, I'll quote myself here:
How does that even remotely make sense to anyone?
And if I may, I'll quote myself as well:
Pathfinder is not a game of economics. The pricing for several materials is not consistent. A set of Large-sized Mithral Fullplate has the same cost modifier as a set of Small-sized Mithral Fullplate, but the price of a set of Dragonhide Fullplate will vary with size.
If everything was consistent and "made sense", we wouldn't have cases like this.
If I may, I'll quote myself here:
How does that even remotely make sense to anyone?Ultimately, this is the crux of it.
It makes sense the same way that old crane style could deflect one of your attacks. That a fireball is reflex saveable. Perhaps even as much sense as a bee flying, or dragons flying.
DM_Blake, again, you keep ignoring that it is the cost of the armor type that is multiplied. Not the cost. Nowhere does it state that the cost (full stop) is multiplied.
If you can find such text anywhere, please quote it but so far all you have done is misquote the section which states cost of the armor type.
The rules are quite clear, only the cost of the armor type is multiplied. Not total cost.
Whether the rules make sense in some kind of economic sense is completely irrelevant. These are the rules, if you want to house rule them to make more sense to you, do so.
To me, they make perfect sense, you are paying for a mechanical benefit, not paying for the weight of the material. Gold is simply a mechanic to (poorly) regulate the power and availability of equipment.
DM_Blake, again, you keep ignoring that it is the cost of the armor type that is multiplied. Not the cost. Nowhere does it state that the cost (full stop) is multiplied.
If you can find such text anywhere, please quote it but so far all you have done is misquote the section which states cost of the armor type.
The rules are quite clear, only the cost of the armor type is multiplied. Not total cost.
Sweet. It seems we agree.
Oh, wait, we don't really agree, do we. But I've never misquoted that rule or forgotten it. You're referring to this, right?
Refer to the appropriate line on Table: Armor for Unusual Creatures and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question.
OK, so just what does "armor type" mean? Can you find me the official rule that explains what "armor type" means? Cite Please? Until you do, I'm assuming it's an undefined phrase rather than a game term.
OK, you're much more likely to be saying that Chain Shirt is a different "armor type" than Studded Leather, right?
If so, then I agree. So far.
What makes them different? They both cover your body, but not your arms, legs, or head. They both give an armor bonus but it's different. They both have some value for Max DEX, Arcane Failure, etc. They're both even light armor. So what makes them different "types"?
is it the name?
I suggest that there is, semantically, just as big a difference between "Chain Shirt" and "Mithral Chain Shirt" as there is between "Chain Shirt" and "Chain Mail". In both cases, changing one word makes it a new type. So it cannot be that "armor type" is defined by having a different name, or else "Mithral Chain Shirt" IS an armor type.
Is it the numbers?
There are huge numerical differences between the Chain Shirt "armor type" and the Full Plate "armor type", just like there are huge differences between the Chain Shirt "armor type" and the "Mithral Chain Shirt" armor type. So it cannot be that "armor type" is defined by having different stats, or else "Mithral Chain Shirt" IS an armor type.
Is it the material?
Surely you cannot say that using different materials defines "armor type" or else you're defeating your own argument, but just in case, the difference between the materials used to make a Mithral Chain Shirt compared to a Chain Shirt is much, much, much more dissimilar than the difference between the materials used to make a Chain Shirt compared to Chainmail. So it cannot be that "armor type" is defined by having different materials, or else "Mithral Chain Shirt" IS an armor type.
I'm out of ideas.
I cannot think of one reason why Chain Shirt is an "armor type" but Mithral Chain Shirt is not.
Please enlighten me.
Until you do, I'm going to assume that Mithral Chain Shirt is an "armor type". That "armor type" costs 1100gp if it's medium or small, and if it's not one of those sizes, then you multiply the cost of that "armor type" by the size multiplier.
Whether the rules make sense in some kind of economic sense is completely irrelevant. These are the rules, if you want to house rule them to make more sense to you, do so.
I agree, we're both reading the same rule and agreeing on what it means.
I'm not houseruling anything.
We're apparently disagreeing on the definition of "armor type" which seems to be completely unefined. You have some reason for claiming that "Mithral Chain Shirt" is the same as "Chain Shirt". I disagree.
To me, they make perfect sense, you are paying for a mechanical benefit, not paying for the weight of the material. Gold is simply a mechanic to (poorly) regulate the power and availability of equipment.
A nicely gamist explanation, and from a (simplistic) gamist point of view, I agree. From a more complex gamist point of view, I suggest that the big picture seems to favor larger creatures more than smaller ones, overall. Perhaps, gamist-ically, paying more for the same mechanical benefit is, in the long run, a balancing factor against the extra advantages of having larger size.
I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I'm OK either way.
But from a simulationist point of view, that large creature is not paying for a mechanical benefit, he's paying for a mass of expensive metal to be forged into masterwork armor. Having a larger mass of that expensive metal clearly necessitates paying more for that larger mass.
I think, this, ultimately is where you and I will never agree. You see this game as a pile of mechanical benefits pitted against other piles of mechanical benefits. Fine. I'm choosing biting word choices, perhaps, since I don't share this pint of view, but I do recognize that it exists and it's a perfectly fine way to play the game. Each to their own. However, I choose to see this game as a simulation of a world in which imaginary creatures go about their simulated lives as if they were, somehow, real.
That difference, is, ultimately, where we'll probably always disagree.
Back to the rules question, since we're in that forum, as I've said before, I think both interpretations are perfectly valid per the rules.
Earlier in this thread I cited the 3 locations that "armor type" is mentioned.
One of them (the rules for Barding) clearly states that armor types are found on table 6-6 of the CRB.
Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table 6–6.
This correlates to the fact that Armor for Unusual Creatures references table 6-6 of the CRB as the location of the costs and weights that, one sentence later, is discussed as being multiplied.
Thus, the cost of the armor types are clearly the costs listed on table 6-6 of the CRB.
Again, "armor type" is clearly the armors listed on table 6-6. It is clear from a reading of the rule in question and another rule references armor types as being on Table 6-6.
large armor costs more because there's more of it
So I just want to make sure I understand your view. You're okay with the tiny armor weighing 1/10 but costing 1/2 of medium armor. so they'd get the mithral fullplate at 5250 instead of the 9750 our interpretation says? Am I correct in how you'd view this?
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Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and non-humanoid creatures (such as horses) have different prices and weights from those given in the Armor and Shields table. Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to price and weight for the armor type in question.
It tells you they have different price and weight based on size. So the first thing you do is look at the chart and apply the multipliers.
So a Large(Humanoid) Chainshirt costs 200 Gold and weighs 50lbs.
Add Mithril +1,000 Gold since its light armor.
So Large(Humanoid) Mithril Chainshirt is 1,200 Gold and weighs 25lbs.
Earlier in this thread I cited the 3 locations that "armor type" is mentioned.
One of them (the rules for Barding) clearly states that armor types are found on table 6-6 of the CRB.
Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table 6–6.This correlates to the fact that Armor for Unusual Creatures references table 6-6 of the CRB as the location of the costs and weights that, one sentence later, is discussed as being multiplied.
Thus, the cost of the armor types are clearly the costs listed on table 6-6 of the CRB.
Again, "armor type" is clearly the armors listed on table 6-6. It is clear from a reading of the rule in question and another rule references armor types as being on Table 6-6.
But that's a flawed premise.
I could say that "hamburger types" are found on McDonald's menu. Absolutely true. But that would lead you think that hamburgers must be Big Mac, Quarter Pounder, Cheeseburger, Double Cheesburger, or McDouble. But Burger King might disagree; they might submit that there are other "hamburger types" that are not found on that table.
Or back to the logic you're using, just because the barding rule says you can find "armor types" on that table, that doesn't mean that the ONLY armor types are on the table. For example, Table 6-6 of the Core Rulebook does not allow for Lamellar or Do-Maru "armor types" which, clearly, ARE "armor types" and should probably be able to be used as barding, too.
I further suggest that if if it did mean ONLY table 6-6, then it must say something like "The only place to find armor types is on table 6-6 of the CRB" which it doesn't say. And finally, if those are the only armor types, then how could you ever have Mithral Chainmail Barding created for a horse? Are you saying you cannot? Or are you arguing that Mithral Chain Barding is not an "armor type"? If it's the latter, please see my previous post and tell me why it's not?
The same references to armor type is found in Ultimate Equipment and each one that in the CRB references table 6-6 in the CRB instead references Ultimate Equipment's table 1-1.
Thus, both Lamellar and Do-Maru are armor types.
Chain Barding is an armor type, it doesn't matter if it is Mithral or not. Mithral is completely outside of the 'armor type' issue. This is what you do not seem to see.
Chain Shirt Barding is the armor type, Mithral is the special material. Thus, you can make Mithral Chain Shirt Barding.
1) Where, according to the rules, are "armor types" found? Answer: on CRB table 6-6 or UEq table 1-1.
2) What is not on those lists? Masterwork, Special Materials.
3) What does the rules say to multiply? The cost associated with the armor types.
4) What does it not say to multiply? Any other costs.
Frankly, the rules are really pretty clear here.
large armor costs more because there's more of itSo I just want to make sure I understand your view. You're okay with the tiny armor weighing 1/10 but costing 1/2 of medium armor. so they'd get the mithral fullplate at 5250 instead of the 9750 our interpretation says? Am I correct in how you'd view this?
Not entirely. I never said I'm OK with other flaws in the simulation.
But the flaw you point out is off by a factor of 1.8. The flaw I pointed out is off by a factor of 8.3. The flaw that you support is 4.6x more egregious than that which I support.
The smaller the flaw, the easier it is to sweep under the rug with things like "Part of the cost is craftsmanship, so yeah, it weighs only 1/10 the price but think about all that hard work that went into making it.
In fact, the opposite is hard to handwaive: "Well, it's a lot more mithral and it should cost a lot more, but they made up the difference in shoddy workmanship..."
So you found a rule that says some "armor types" are found on table 6-6 or 1-1. It never states that those are exclusive of all other possible "armor types". Doesn't even hint it.
The term is undefined. Finding a rule that cross-references a table does not mean that this rule creates a definition that otherwise does not exist. I think I demonstrated that.
There are words in your post. I cannot use that as the definition of "word" because, after all, there are words that are not in your post. Even if I say "Words can be found in your post", I'm not establishing a definition of "words".
Mithral Chain Shirt is a distinct piece of armor. It has its own name, its own look, its own statistics, its on method of construction, and its own price. None of those except name is truly unique, but collectively, those qualities define a unique, distinct piece of armor.
Perhaps they even define a distinct type of armor.
Who knows, since "armor type" is not actually defined anywhere?
DM_Blake,
There are several references where to find armor types.
Does it have to be exhaustive? No.
But there is a clear indication of what they consider armor types to be.
The rule clearly multiplies the cost of the armor types.
In order for your perspective to work you have to do the following:
A) You have to ignore the references to where "armor types" can be found.
B) You have to ignore the rule that states to multiply the armor type cost by ignoring the phrase "armor type".
I don't think there is anything left to discuss. The rules are clear, armor type costs can be found on CRB table 6-6 and UEq table 1-1. Armor type costs are what is multiplied.
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Nothing left to discuss.
Except this:
Fred the Bard: Good sir blacksmith, I'd like to engage your services to craft me a wonderful shirt of chain.
John Smith: Gladly, minstrel. It'll cost five score gold coins when I'm done.
Fred: Oh, but sir Smith, I want only the best chain shirt made of pure mithral.
John: Aye, well, I can do that, but it'll cost you an extra thousand gold coins.
Fred: A thousand? That's quite a bit.
John: Oh, aye, 'tis indeed. But mithral is not cheap, no sir, and I'll need about, oh, a dozen pounds of it, more or less.
Fred: Well, a deal fair struck then. See it done.
John: Aye, so it will be.
Fred: I have another request, sir Smith. A friend of mine, a traveling companion as it were, also wants a mithral shirt of chain.
John: Not a problem. I can make both for you. Cost you another eleven hundred gold.
Fred: Well, you see, this companion of mine is an ogre. A domesticated ogre, you might say, and a fine ally in a scrap. But he is quite large.
John: Oh, well, that's different. Seein's he's so large, I'll need at least twice as much mithral. About one and a quarter score pounds should do for an ogre.
Fred: Not a problem. So, instead of eleven hundred gold coins for his larger shirt, you'll be wanting two thousand and two hundred no doubt. Very well. Agreed and done.
John: Not so fast, good bard. I cannot cheat so fine a gentleman as yourself, and I'm no cheat, neither. Twelve hundred should suffice.
Fred: Sir Smith, it seems that your skill with numbers falls far short of your skill with the forge. Surely, if a dozen pounds of mithral warrants a thousand gold coins, then five quarters score should warrant two thousand, should it not?
John: Well, no actually. It doesn't. In fact, twenty five pounds of mithral costs exactly the same as twelve and a bit.
Fred: But that's daft! Surely you jest!
John: Nay, good minstrel, I leave the jests to you and your tradesmen. My supplier charges me exactly one thousand gold coins, less a fair tradesman discount, no matter how much mithral I buy. A dozen pounds for you, or two dozen and one pounds for your friend. Heck, once I even made a mithral chain shirt for a titan of all things. A titan! Took me a whole year. A full gross pounds of mithral and then some. A hundred and fifty, to be exact.
Fred: And your supplier? What did he charge?
John: Exactly one thousand gold coins, less my guild discount.
Fred: Inconceivable!
John: It's true. Every word.
Fred: It cannot be.
John: No, it cannot be, but yet, it is.
Fred: How? How can this be?
John: Well, you see, you're not really buying mithral.
Fred: I'm not?
John: No sir. You're buying a mechanical benefit.
Fred: A what?
John: Mechanics. You get harder to kill, that should cost you a set amount of gold coins. A thousand, let's say. Your large ogre ally gets harder to kill, but it's the same benefit, so it should cost the same. A thousand gold coins. So you see, it's not mithral at all.
Fred: Lying there on your workbench, it sure looks like mithral.
John: Trust me, it's not. It's just a mechanical benefit.
Fred: What about the supplier? Doesn't he have to pay for it?
John: No.
Fred: Well, then he must mine it himself somewhere, right?
John: No.
Fred: Where does all this mithral come from? It must come from somewhere...
John: Best I understand it is, I don't need mithral until one of you adventuring types wants it. When you do, I go to my supplier and he just has it. If you didn't need it, he wouldn't have it. But when you need it, poof, it's just there.
Fred: No effort goes into making it, mining it, or procuring it?
John: Nope, just there. That's why he sells it for a flat thousand gold coins, less my guild rate, because he's not selling mithral, or material, or even effort. He's just selling a pile of mechanical benefit. Then I forge that mechanical benefit into your armor.
Fred: ...
John: So you see, it makes perfect sense.
Fred: I'd hardly call that perfect. Or sense.
John: It is what it is. Best to not think too hard about it. Give you a headache.
Fred: Yeah, I have a headache now.
John: See? Just don't think.
Fred: I just had a thought.
John: I just said NOT to think.
Fred: Well, I did anyway. And I had a thought. And you're going to love it so much you'll make my armor and my ally's for free!
John: I will, eh? OK, I'm listening.
Fred: Tell your supplier that the titan's brother wants a shirt of mithral chain. He'll sell you that seven and a half score pounds of mithral for just a thousand gold coins, right?
John: Right as rain Less my fair guild discount.
Fred: Excellent. Then you make my armor and my companion's armor, using just 3 dozen pounds, give or take a pound or two, right?
John: Aye, that sounds about right.
Fred: That leaves, what about nine dozen pounds with a few bits left over for you. You can turn that into nine more mithral chain shirts and sell them and keep all the profit. Even if you give me my two shirts for free, as a thank you for this fine profitable idea, you'll still sell those other nine shirts for nearly ten thousand gold coins. That's nine thousand gold coins of pure profit for you, sir Smith! Free and clear!
John: Ahh, I see what you mean. Clever. You get free armor and I get nine thousand gold coins of pure profit. Done deal!!
And they all lived happily ever after.
I'm glad you finally understand. :D
And yes, pathfinder has no economy, they actually only sell things to PC's thus the smith wouldn't go for the deal, since he can't sell unless it's to you.
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I'm glad you finally understand. :D
And yes, pathfinder has no economy, they actually only sell things to PC's thus the smith wouldn't go for the deal, since he can't sell unless it's to you.
Oh, good point. Let me revise the ending:
...
John: Ahh, I see what you mean. Clever. You get free armor and I get nine thousand gold coins of pure profit. But it won't work.
Fred: Won't work?
John: Nope.
Fred: Why not? It sounds perfect to me.
John: Well, you see, you're my only customer. Well, you and your ogre ally. Who isn't here at the moment, so, really, just you.
Fred: You have no customer?
John: I have one. Or two, countin' your friend.
Fred: Just us?
John: Yes. So you see, I can't sell those other mithral chain shirts. No money for me. So I still have to charge you.
Fred: But you're here, working this forge. You have a shop in this town. An apprentice. A family.
John: Aye, that I do.
Fred: How do you support them with no customers?
John: I have customers.
Fred: You said you didn't.
John: I have you. And your ogre fella. That's customers.
Fred: But you didn't even know I was coming in here today.
John: Nope.
Fred: So why are you here, with this shop, working your trade, with no customers before today?
John: Well, you see, I'm not really a blacksmith.
Fred: What? You're not?
John: Nope. I'm a mechanical benefit.
Fred: That's preposterous!
John: No sir, 'tis true.
Fred: How can that be?
John: Mechanics. You want to get harder to kill. That means you need better armor. That means you need a blacksmith. That means you need me. So you see, I'm not a blacksmith at all.
Fred: So what happens the rest of the time when I'm not here?
John: Best I understand it is, I don't even exist until one of you adventuring types needs armor. When you do, you go to town and I'm just here. If you didn't need it, I wouldn't be here. But when you need it, poof, I'm just here.
Fred: So you haven't been here all along?
John: Nope, I'm just here for you. That's why I sell it for a flat thousand gold coins, because I'm not selling mithral, or material, or even effort. I'm just selling a pile of mechanical benefit that I forged into your armor.
Fred: My headache just got worse.
John: I told you not to think about it. So, we're agreed then, two thousand and three hundred gold for you and your ogre friend?
Fred: Whatever. I'll be in the tavern.
John: Wait a minute...
Fred: ?
John: Ahh, there it is. One just appeared there across the street, waiting just for you...
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Every time someone brings up economics in relation to Pathfinder it makes me laugh.
What should happen when adventurers dump thousands of "lost gold" into a region?
The regions economy should tank as rampant inflation happens (this actually happened in history when spaniards brought back gold ships from the new world).
Is rampant inflation represented? Nope, equipment does not suddenly cost more coin because adventurers keep dumping gold into a region that didn't have it previously.
Is the buying and selling of magic items even remotely accurate according to economics? Nope, prices are static and do not fluctuate. While some GMs may vary this depending on diplomacy the starting point is always the same.
Is half a dozen other elements of economics represented? Nope
Gold is a metric of the game, nothing more, nothing less. We dress it up when roleplaying but that is a thin veneer. If you look too hard at it the veneer becomes see through.
I spent some more time looking into this subject.
This quote says to apply the multiplier to cost.
So what is "cost"? What does this game term mean?
If you look at the Mithral special material, it lists the "cost" modifier as +1,000gp for light armor. Every other special material has "cost" modifiers too. So all these materials are modifying the "cost" of the item.
Cost is actually defined.
Cost: The cost in gold pieces of the armor for Small or Medium humanoid creatures. See the Armor for Unusual Creatures table for armor prices for other creatures.
But when you go to the chart there is no listing for Cost. Only Price.
Yet when i looked at Eastern Armor it is listed as Cost.
I was searching for a way to either connect that cost/price with the wording of Special Materials.
Those above links are both from the section from Ultimate Equipment.
But if we look at the Equipment section from the Core Rulebook section we see the following.
Cost is universally used and defined for Weapons, Armor, the same term is used for Special Materials, and also used in Armor for Unusual Creatures.
In Ultimate Equipment the word Cost was replaced with the word Price in all instances except for the the Armor definition, yet it was changed on the chart. Clearly a error since it was only missed in one location.
From this i surmise that Cost and Price are the same term as far as the game is concerned.
It was at this point i realized that i was wrong on my initial stance concerning the cost/price of special materials and size multipliers.
Special Materials are listed as Cost Modifiers in the Core Book and as Price Modifiers in Ultimate Equipment.
Example
Mithril is listed as a +1,000 Gold Cost/Price Modifier.
Chain Shirt is listed as Cost/Price of 100 Gold.
So Chain Shirt (100 Gold Cost) + Mithril (Light 1,000 Gold Cost) gives us 1,100 Gold Cost for a Mithril Chain Shirt.
Then we look at Armor for Unusual Creatures and see that the Cost of the Armor is used. Thus if i wanted to purchase a Large Mithril Chain Shirt it would apply the multipliers to the Cost of the armor.
So we get the following:
Chain Shirt (100 Gold Cost) + Mithril (Light +1,000 Gold Cost)= 1,100 Gold Cost
The Cost of a Mithril Chain Shirt is 1,100 Gold.
Then we apply the rules for Armor for Unusual Creatures.
Large is a multiplier of x2 Cost.
Mithril Chain Shirt (Cost of 1,100 Gold) X 2= 2,200 Gold.
So a suit of Large Mithril Chain Shirt would be 2,200 Gold.
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Loved your dialogue, DM_Blake =).
Every time this discussion comes up someone in your shoes gives their rendition of it, and they're always hilarious.
But Gauss's response highlights, again, the crux of the issue:
"Pathfinder is not a game of economics".
If the cost of Mithral bothers you, then feel free to houserule something different in your campaign. I've certainly instilled elements of availability into my world's economies (but even then, I've only taken basic micro- and macroeconomics, and could never come up with a system that mirrors real life). Each of my countries even has a list of major exports and imports, and exotic metals are absolutely on that list.
The cool thing about Pathfinder is that the GM controls everything. In my campaigns I put a strong emphasis on environmental details, food chains, and populations of wildlife. I instill ecology into my games, because that's what I know. If I played in your games, and you said "Twice as much Mithral? Twice the price", I'd be totally fine with that.
The only time this really has to be enforced is in PFS.