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I suggest a similiar thing for Barkskin if you have a druid, ranger, or hunter around, a CL 12 barkskin is +5 enchancement bonus to natural armor for 120 minutes. Keeping this up constantly would take 6 pearls of power (6x4000gp) and 2 lesser extend metamagic rod (2x3000gp). This is 20,000gp cheaper than a +5 amulet of natural armor (50,000gp) and keeps your neck slot free.
If he's going monk he doesn't need this combo. I've yet to meet an unarmed qinggong monk who didn't take barkskin at level 4 or 5.
Skylancer4: Hm. I have never heard of a reading as strict as that. Please do not take offense to this as I know that you are not specifically reading it that way and more just warning me that it could be interpreted that way. That reading seems less than reasonable and more purposefully restrictive. Everything in the Gloves of Dueling are called out as a bonus. It is no more use activated than Bracers of Armor only improving your AC when you are attacked.
The whole bit about the "weapon being wielded" is moot here as well as the "weapon" are Improved Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons which are always "wielded". I feel the same is true for Monk Robes. I have never heard the opinion that they wouldn't work while shifted.
I'm not doubting that someone somewhere has this opinion. I do wonder where you are getting this from though. Was there a thread like this where people were expressing such opinions? Has this been backed by a Dev or anything? That reading seems like way beyond a restrictive interpretation and into the purposefully more restrictive than the RAW intends.
Charon's Little Helper: I will not be getting more than 2 levels in Monk or else I would go Qinggong.
TheWhiteWingFamily: Monk means I will be going unarmored.
im pretty sure monks can take gantlets with a feat
TheWhiteWingFamily: What do you mean "take gantlets with a feat"?
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Charon's Little Helper: I will not be getting more than 2 levels in Monk or else I would go Qinggong.
Yeah - every monk should go Qinggong. It was the monk's stealth buff. Combine it with another archetype and monks can be very solid indeed.
(Though at high levels any but Sohei have moderate accuracy issues. However - they also have the best defenses in the game with the possible exception of wildshaped druids.)
there is a feat that lets a monk wear gantlets but he wont get AC from it
Gauntlets do not give AC.
So... I am confused as to what you mean?...
Do you know what feat it is you are referring to?
i dont know the name of it but it lets you take parts of armor and use them with BAB instead of AC
Yeah... I sorta do not believe you.
Sorry.
Skylancer4: Hm. I have never heard of a reading as strict as that. Please do not take offense to this as I know that you are not specifically reading it that way and more just warning me that it could be interpreted that way. That reading seems less than reasonable and more purposefully restrictive. Everything in the Gloves of Dueling are called out as a bonus. It is no more use activated than Bracers of Armor only improving your AC when you are attacked.
The whole bit about the "weapon being wielded" is moot here as well as the "weapon" are Improved Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons which are always "wielded". I feel the same is true for Monk Robes. I have never heard the opinion that they wouldn't work while shifted.
I'm not doubting that someone somewhere has this opinion. I do wonder where you are getting this from though. Was there a thread like this where people were expressing such opinions? Has this been backed by a Dev or anything? That reading seems like way beyond a restrictive interpretation and into the purposefully more restrictive than the RAW intends.
As I said before, it comes right from the Transmutation (Polymorph) school, glossary and magic item descriptions:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
Your level isn't a statistical score, though at times it is added to one (like a caster level check for SR or dispel etc).
It wouldn't be a moot point as it isn't the weapon that you use that matters, it is the lack of gloves being used to provide the benefit. It is like the rules for magic items adjusting to your size when you wear them as a fox then change to a humanoid form, but it doesn't stay in effect when you do it the other way around. When you look at all the pertinent rules it might seem counter intuitive, but that is what they amount to and say. The game definition of bonus really narrows down what we would actually keep active during a poly effect.
Again this is just a strict RAW reading. So items like the monk robes or gloves wouldn't work given the definitions we have from the RAW.
I have read all of the relevant rules and have come to a different conclusion.
To quote what you wrote above, "Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated."
I completely agree that this rules out activated magic items. But it makes the distinction that many items do not need to be activated. Those ones would still work when polymorphed. Monk's Robes are a perfect example of something that just needs to be worn to gain the benefits of. It is continually functioning once worn. It is not activated when you use a command word or do something special. It actually says so much right in the description:
When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.
It is no different than a Belt of Giant Strength. You just have to wear it to gain the benefit.
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As I said before, it comes right from the Transmutation (Polymorph) school, glossary and magic item descriptions:When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
Skylancer4, I think your interpretation is in error here, or rather the writing in the Polymorph section doesn't connect with the term "activated" in the Magic Items section. All magic items must be activated according to the rules on magic items.
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
The four ways to activate magic items are described below.
It then goes on to describe Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command Word, and Use Activated.
So by the strictest ruling of the Polymorph rules, no magic items can work because they all must be activated.
But I assume this wasn't the intent and that it was to limit items to Use Activated items which require no action at all to activate. However if they were loose enough on their magic item activation wording to ban all magic items but continue to write about them, you've got to wonder what they mean by bonuses as well, do the mean just statistical bonuses as you imply or do they mean all benefits?
From my anecdotal experience, I've never seen it run the way Skylancer4 describes.
Polymorph states bonuses, so statistical bonuses would continue to work. Rings of protection, belts/headbands/etc of +X, cloak of resistance bonuses (and the like) would all continue to work. They are flat bonuses not dependent on being triggered by "use" of any type other than being worn.
Gloves that treat your level as higher when you use them to fight with a specific weapon, isn't a statistical bonus per the game definition and requires a certain action to trigger their effect. So has 2 things going against it by RAW.
Polymorph states items that require activation don't work and that you retain bonuses (NOT benefits), use activated items state there are some items that just work by virtue of being worn (rings, cloaks, specific items) and that items can also be activated by either a standard action, or use can be completed by using said item in certain ways (let's say, using your gloves to make an attack with a weapon perhaps?). This means some use activated items don't require activation (being worn) but some require actions beyond being worn and activate when you do things with them. This would mean it isn't constant correct? That when you aren't using the gloves or attacking with the weapon the bonus isn't in place?
So we have logically:
Polymorph allows constantly granted bonuses from non activated items to work.
Bonuses are a game term for specific numeric values.
Use activated items have sub sets, one of which requires no activation at all.
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If we plug that into that into the equation we find that very few items actually work by RAW due to the criteria.
And just because people don't run it that way doesn't mean that isn't what the rules state. Interpretation is a tricky thing. I'm just pointing out that a strict reading of RAW gives this base line that you should plan around if you were going to make a character like this.
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So we have logically:Polymorph allows constantly granted bonuses from non activated items to work.
Bonuses are a game term for specific numeric values.
Use activated items have sub sets, one of which requires no activation at all.
It's require no action to activate at all, all magic items require activation per the CRB. Non-activated items don't give bonuses or benefits to anybody (okay they may be useful as paper weights).
Now what I might interpret it to be saying is:
"Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated again, and continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."
As to whether the bonus of dueling gloves is not constant because the bonus only applies with the usage of certain weapons. I would say it is constant (occurring continuously over a period of time) as soon as you don the gloves (the item doesn't say I have to activate when someone tries to disarm me). And yes the bonuses apply to me not the weapon, because they are rolling against my statistics. The bonus is still there for those weapons when the character isn't holding X weapon, he just can't make a check under the circumstance that would allow that bonus to be calculated in (in this case an attack roll) for those circumstances.
Otherwise items that provide constant bonuses to abilities, skill checks, saves, etc. wouldn't be considered constant when that ability/skill/save is not being used. "Oh you have a bonus to X(search for traps/making a will save/etc), but you're not doing X at any given moment, meaning that bonus is not constant."
What is your class lay out it is ether not here or i am blind
this will improve my knowledge of what items you need.
Thunder_TBT
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B. A. Robards-Debardot's opinion matches my own interpretation of the rules. Like he said (and actually me, before him), if Gloves of Dueling wouldn't work then neither would... well, any item.
Thunder_TBT: Unarmed Fighter 5, Master of Many Styles/Kata Master Monk 2, Mouser Swashbuckler 1, Duelist 4
So we have logically:Polymorph allows constantly granted bonuses from non activated items to work.
Bonuses are a game term for specific numeric values.
Use activated items have sub sets, one of which requires no activation at all.
It's require no action to activate at all, all magic items require activation per the CRB. Non-activated items don't give bonuses or benefits to anybody (okay they may be useful as paper weights).
Now what I might interpret it to be saying is:
"Items that provide constant bonusesanddo not need to be activated again, and continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."As to whether the bonus of dueling gloves is not constant because the bonus only applies with the usage of certain weapons. I would say it is constant (occurring continuously over a period of time) as soon as you don the gloves (the item doesn't say I have to activate when someone tries to disarm me). And yes the bonuses apply to me not the weapon, because they are rolling against my statistics. The bonus is still there for those weapons when the character isn't holding X weapon, he just can't make a check under the circumstance that would allow that bonus to be calculated in (in this case an attack roll) for those circumstances.
Otherwise items that provide constant bonuses to abilities, skill checks, saves, etc. wouldn't be considered constant when that ability/skill/save is not being used. "Oh you have a bonus to X(search for traps/making a will save/etc), but you're not doing X at any given moment, meaning that bonus is not constant."
All items have an activation type, Use Activated items have a sub set which are active when worn, as I quoted above. They just "work" without any use or action to activate, constantly providing their bonus regardless of what you are doing. Unlike other use activated items that need to be used in some way, that get activated when you do something specific or in response to something happening. Activation isn't always a separate action cost, it is some times part of another action. These distinctions becomes important in such a case as Polymorph.
As for your gloves, it depends on the description of the item. If you are getting the bonus for actually using the item, then when you are polymorphed the item isn't around to provide the bonus. The gloves you used for example, you get the bonus because the gloves are being used right? The gloves magically help you to keep grip on weapons and prevent them from being sundered. Why would they still keep doing that if they aren't around? Why would you have a bonus to disarm when the gloves are merged and not being used?
The way the gloves read, their activation would be wielding a weapon.
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned.
Is it restrictive? Absolutely. But you also have to remember that PFRPG has gone to great lengths to reign in shapechaning shenanigans, so it makes sense it would be restrictive no?
Skylancer4: I still disagree.
I disagree with your assessment of the gloves as well. First of all, you are focusing on the disarming bit while my character wouldn't benefit from that at all anyway. They will be applying to both Unarmed and Natural Attacks. He doesn't "wield weapons" or "grip on her weapons" or even have "held weapons". So every bit of the text you quoted is irreverent. You also didn't quote the whole thing. Let me post it here and I will highlight the relevant parts:
These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
You do not have to do anything to activate the item other than wear it. Kinda like a Belt of Giant Strength. You don't "activate" the item when using something that requires a Str check. It doesn't "activate" when you swing a sword just because it applies it's Str to damage. It is an always on affect.
Honestly, I am not certain how you could on one hand argue that the Gloves of Dueling do NOT work but a Belt of Giant Strength WOULD. They are the same. Nowhere in the description of either does it say that they need to be activated.
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All items have an activation type, Use Activated items have a sub set which are active when worn, as I quoted above.
True.
They just "work" without any use or action to activate, constantly providing their bonus regardless of what you are doing.
False. See below.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
From this language we get that use activated items have to be used to be activated. We are also told that for some items the use that activates them is the act of wearing the item. We also are told that the activation of an item is generally explained in it's description. I've marked up some item descriptions in the spoilers below.
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones.
The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined
Here we see that the headband is activated when worn.
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Here we see that the glove is activated when worn. It doesn't say "When the wearer holds a weapon". Assuming that it only activates when the "holds a weapon" condition is met requires more usage restrictions than are written. Now a weapon can't be disarmed, sundered or dropped if it isn't held, but the item is activated and it the effects are granted to the wearer.
This thin, black canvas belt is typically tied loosely about the waist to secure a robe, kimono, or martial artist’s dobok. Three times per day as a free action, the wearer can select a combat maneuver and receive an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on combat maneuver checks for this combat maneuver and a +1 to +5 bonus to CMD when defending against this maneuver for 1 round. Additionally, when worn by a brawler, the belt grants one additional use of her martial flexibility class feature each day.
This item has two effects that are activated as different actions.
1) (Use Activated) The wearer chooses X as a free action three times per day2) (Use Activated) The wearer gains X if they are a brawler
This ragged, brown robe could be mistaken for a monk’s cassock, but the devotees who wear it are dedicated only to the art of killing. This robe grants the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Stealth checks and Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a weapon, and a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. If worn by a slayer, the resistance bonus on saving throws increases to match the slayer’s studied target bonus when he is facing a studied target.
On command, the robe’s wearer is able to turn into a brown mist (as the gaseous form spell) for up to 5 minutes per day. This duration doesn’t need to be continuous, but must be used in 1-minute increments. While the wearer is in this form, the bonus on Stealth checks increases to +10. The wearer can end this effect as a standard action.
This item has two effects that are activated as different actions:
1) (Use Activated) The user wears it and the item grants X2) (Command Word activated) The user commands it and the item grants X
So as currently written Polymorph doesn't work with any magical items:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
No such magical items exist, as they all require activation at some point even if the activating use is just wearing them.
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Skylancer4, I just wanted to point out by your reading of the bonus restriction in polymorph, (if Magical Items did work with polymorph as written), weapon special abilities (such as Agile, Holy, Keen, etc.) wouldn't work when when enchanted on an Amulet of Mighty Fists as they do not provide straight numerical bonuses.
Skylancer4, I just wanted to point out by your reading of the bonus restriction in polymorph, (if Magical Items did work with polymorph as written), weapon special abilities (such as Agile, Holy, Keen, etc.) wouldn't work when when enchanted on an Amulet of Mighty Fists as they do not provide straight numerical bonuses.
It isn't my reading, as in how I run it. Just a very strict reading of RAW which should be acknowledged if you plan on running it in organized play where such an interpretation could come up and impact the character.
Plan for the best, prepare for the worst.
Skylancer4: Well, that I can certainly appreciate because I have ran into some douchy calls before.
Do you know of anyone other than you that shares the same opinion? I ask not to disclude your opinion from mattering but because: 1. I have never even heard that opinion before. and 2. if it IS even a somewhat rare opinion I would rather be prepared for it than not for PFS play.