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I apologize if this is in the wrong category. It was either here or the Core category. I felt this more appropriate with the spoiler involved.
Yesterday I played Fangwood Keep and received this boon:
The question: Under the circumstances listed and the idea of "earned access" in Core, would this allow access to non-Core materials?
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1st- It predates Core so saying it doesn't specify it seems more like an bad excuse than anything else.
2nd- The item this comes from is considered isn't just a mundane spellbook, it's a Minor Artifact.
3rd- Wizards don't really get that many opportunities to get access to a spellbook anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a spellbook pop up in a scenario.
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•Wizard PCs can scribe non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls during the scenario, but the opportunity ends when the scenario does. Record any such spells learned on the Chronicle sheet, and have the GM initial the note.
•If an NPC prepared spellcaster has a spellbook but no spells listed in it, he is assumed to have any spells he has prepared in the book.
•Even if he missed his opportunity during the scenario, a wizard PC can learn spells from any scroll that appears on a Chronicle sheet by purchasing it and scribing it as normal.
•Other PCs able to cast spells—spontaneously or from a divine spell list that does not depend on a spellbook—can learn spells they find in scroll form so long as they buy the scroll and expend it to add the spell to her list of legal spells; spontaneous spellcasters must still expend known spell slots in order to learn the spell. These PCs cannot learn non-Core spells from spellbooks.
As no spells are listed, you do not meet any of the criteria listed above for Scribing of exotic spells. Even if the scenario listed one and you didn't scribe it before the GM packed up, you'd not be able to scribe it without a scroll on the chronicle or it being specified on the boon (see bullet one and three).
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1st- It predates Core so saying it doesn't specify it seems more like an bad excuse than anything else.
2nd- The item this comes from is considered isn't just a mundane spellbook, it's a Minor Artifact.
3rd- Wizards don't really get that many opportunities to get access to a spellbook anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a spellbook pop up in a scenario.
1st- Not at issue. Even before Core, it would only give access to the spells you already could access, really, not to spells that are illegal or not from an allowed source.
2nd- And your point there? Being a minor artifact just means that, among other things, the spell identify doesn't work on it. And you aren't getting the spells from the book, you are getting limited free access to the Pathfinder Society spell library.
3rd- That is still more, and more reliable, access than non-Wizards have to non-Core stuff, especially Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids. They can't even learn the spells form a spellbook, it has to be a scroll, instead. And we won't even go into finding a specific non-Core weapon for the martials...
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Apparently everyone responding doesn't seem to get the idea. There are no limitations listed. It says "any number of spells." But everyone here wants to interpret it in the most punitive way possible. This boon was written long before Core was considered. To me it seems like people wanting to keep any and every non-Core option out of the game no matter what (just look at Kevin Willis' post). The idea behind Core is earned access, people seem to be forgetting that.
I just asked the question to test the feasibility but I guess it doesn't matter. I already scribed the spells anyway (all three of them...so game breaking). I will hold to that definition until someone higher up says otherwise.
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Soluzar, I hope that you scribed core spells. This boon does not specify anything, thus does not grant anything outside core. If you scribed non-core spells with this boon, then you are A) attempting to cheat the system, using the "it doesn't say I can't" mentality, B) removing your character from Core campaign forever, or C) knowingly cheating and ignoring the rules set forth for the campaign. Points A and C also violate the "don't be a jerk" rule. Not a single person who posted to this thread has said that the rules are vague enough to warrant this question. You've had people from 0-5 stars all say that this boon does NOT grant earned access to any non-core material.
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Apparently everyone responding doesn't seem to get the idea. There are no limitations listed. It says "any number of spells." But everyone here wants to interpret it in the most punitive way possible. This boon was written long before Core was considered. To me it seems like people wanting to keep any and every non-Core option out of the game no matter what (just look at Kevin Willis' post). The idea behind Core is earned access, people seem to be forgetting that.
I just asked the question to test the feasibility but I guess it doesn't matter. I already scribed the spells anyway (all three of them...so game breaking). I will hold to that definition until someone higher up says otherwise.
So, tell me, would you also rule that this boon gives you the right to scribe blood transcription in Standard PFS?
So, for the boon, since it does not list any specific resources, or specific spells, it only, only gives access to the spell sources, and spells, that are legal for the OP campaign it is used in.
For Core, that gives access to spells, other than spells listed as not available, from the Core Rulebook, the Web Traits Enhancement, the language blog post, and the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. And, since of those books, only the CRB has spells in it, it only gives access to scribe spells from the Core Rulebook.
Note that the boon only gives free access to spells you can scribe, it does not open access to any spells you could not otherwise scribe. The boon only waives the access cost to the spell, not whether the spell is normally legal or not.
So, if your PC has used this boon to scribed, say, Snowball, Create Pit and some other spell from outside Core, with only this boon as a source, that PC has removed itself from the Core Campaign.
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So, tell me, would you also rule that this boon gives you the right to scribe blood transcription in Standard PFS?
No, Blood Transcription is not in the Additional Resources period.
So, for the boon, since it does not list any specific resources, or specific spells, it only, only gives access to the spell sources, and spells, that are legal for the OP campaign it is used in.
At worst, in the context of Core, the boon is ambiguous and leaves some room for interpretation. Going by your logic the boon is right because it doesn't mention any Core limitations at all in the text.
For Core, that gives access to spells, other than spells listed as not available, from the Core Rulebook, the Web Traits Enhancement, the language blog post, and the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. And, since of those books, only the CRB has spells in it, it only gives access to scribe spells from the Core Rulebook.
Redundant, see my last statement. Also, I know what the reference documents are.
Note that the boon only gives free access to spells you can scribe, it does not open access to any spells you could not otherwise scribe. The boon only waives the access cost to the spell, not whether the spell is normally legal or not.
Once again, redundant.
So, if your PC has used this boon to scribed, say, Snowball, Create Pit and some other spell from outside Core, with only this boon as a source, that PC has removed itself from the Core Campaign.
Now you've just plain lost it. Worst case scenario, all I have to do is ask the GM for as corrected chronicle sheet. Kicking the character from Core is a huge overreaction.
I think this thread shows a couple of problems in Core. First, there is some ambiguity in the language for some boons and abilities. These will be corrected over time. We'll likely see a lot of it in the next Guide to Organized Play (almost makes me wonder if Core should get it's own chapter at least). Second, this highlights a problem in the Core community. There seem to be some people who are obsessed with the idea of keeping Core "pure" and don't like anything from the outside injected. The idea of "earned access" seems to have gotten lost.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Ok Soluzar, I am going to try this from a different approach as my first post on this topic was kept succinct in the hopes of not spoiling anything with the item in question and your resultant responses stating otherwise.
We all know that in the Core Campaign, anything outside of the Core Rulebook requires appearance on a chronicle. In the Normal Campaign, use of any option allowed by the Additional Resources must be accompanied by the specific resource (physical or PDF watermarked copy) and a copy of the Additional Resources Document per the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Rules currently governing the Core Campaign are contained within the three Pathfinder Society Monday Blogs (Introducing the Core Campaign, No Habla Shoanti, and Scribing of Exotic Spells) until the next version of the Guide surfaces.
Now that has been established...
The original question:
Under the circumstances listed and the idea of "earned access" in Core, would this allow access to non-Core materials?
First, the Core Campaign was not established on the idea of "earned access". It was to add replay opportunities, get more people to step up and GM without the need to know or have access to the vast library that is Pathfinder, and appeal to new players as they will not be overwhelmed by the amount of material. Second, I still stand by my and those who have already posted answer of No due to the boon not identifying specific spells that you can add just level limits of those spells.
Basis for the No response:
If you had played this in the Normal Campaign, you would only have access to spells that were allowed by Additional Resources and have the specific resources where the spells originated. (Ex: You could not scribe Snowball if you did not have People of the North.). On the other hand, if you played this in the Core Campaign, you would have access to the spells from the Core Rulebook and any non-core spells you gained access to via a chronicle (provided you had that resource). For example, two Season 5 scenarios allow access for characters to certain spells from the Demon Hunter's Handbook. Based on this example, you would be able to scribe those spells from the Core Rulebook and those that are on the chronicles for the two Season 5 scenarios (provided you had played them in core of course).
The item description in the module does not have a spell list and one would have to roll randomly for both the spell type (arcane or divine) and what spells were contained in the available pages. Speaking of the pages, the item in the CRB that this boon is based on does not allow for scribing in the first place but we have that option in this boon. So there is no ambiguity for this boon in either campaign. You are only allowed to scribe those spells that you have access to by resource or chronicle with resource. Besides the obvious limitations placed on this boon per the resources associated with either campaign, there are other limitations placed on this item. You are only allowed to scribe 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the total levels not exceeding 8.
Now let me address the topic of keeping Non-Core items out of the Core Campaign. There is an option in the blog introducing the Core Campaign that states any non-core items is inaccessible unless it appears on a chronicle (Book of Infinite Spells is in the Core Rulebook). If the Campaign Leadership wanted to keep Non-Core options out of the Core Campaign (which the only one specifically mentioned in the blog is Race Boons), the option of gaining access by chronicle would not be present and make the Core Campaign completely pointless. Keep in mind, I have no problems with Non-Core items becoming part of a Core character and attempts to keep Core "pure" are against reasons the Core Campaign was created and are available according to the rules.
Speaking of rules...
You have stated that you were going to keep what you have scribed from the boon until someone higher up states otherwise. There have been responses from people ranging from 0 to 5 stars all saying the same thing. Two of those responses, including both of mine, were from Venture-Officers. Getting Mike and John to respond to these posts will only cause more restriction to the campaign and possibly make this item unavailable as well as waste their valuable time preparing for PaizoCon and GenCon. If they do respond and, even after the information I have presented, find that myself and others who posted there responses were wrong; I will be the first to both admit the error and apologize to you for that error.
Hopefully you will see this reasoning a valid as to why a player gaining access to this item in the Core Campaign has the limitations as to what spells they can scribe. Thank you for taking the time to read this response and your consideration of the information presented.
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Soluzar:
I am not against bringing non-Core items into the Core campaign, but in allowing access only when actually granted. If you look, you will see that I was one of the people hoping to get GM permission to annotate non-Core items that, in the Standard campaign, are always available, so would not have been noted on older chronicles, even if they appeared in the scenario.
Note that, as shown in the spoiler text copied above, copied from your own post, you are not granted access to the actual artifact.
You are granted access to an unspecified list of spells form the Pathfinder Society spell library.
For Core, unless you have access from another, legal, source, those extensive spell libraries only include Core spells.
Also note that the only thing this boon does is allow you to scribe a limited number of low-level spells without having to pay the NPC access fee. You still have to pay the applicable scribing costs, just not the associated access fees.
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But everyone here wants to interpret it in the most punitive way possible. This boon was written long before Core was considered. To me it seems like people wanting to keep any and every non-Core option out of the game no matter what (just look at Kevin Willis' post).
I'll start by saying I meant my post as a legitimate question (and a plea). Standard play still exists. If you want access to all the "power options" why aren't you (generic you) playing that instead of trying to make "the most powerful Core character in all the land?"
The idea behind Core is earned access, people seem to be forgetting that.
Here's the first sentence of the blog that let Core loose into the world (enumeration mine):
As the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign and the Pathfinder RPG itself has developed over the last several years, players have expressed increasing concerns about 1the availability of replay, 2new players being overwhelmed or overshadowed by over-optimized characters, 3Chronicle sheet rewards not having much meaning, 4and other concerns related to the sheer amount of information and options available to PFS players.
One of the ideas behind Core (the third one) is indeed to make Chronicle sheets more meaningful. But 2 and 4 are to simplify the game. Using everything we can exploit to add non-core options completely debases those concerns.
Concern 3 is about preventing the letdown of "Oh, yay, I found a wand of ant haul. How exciting that my Chronicle has a wand I could purchase for the past 4 levels anyway." In Core that becomes: "Oooh, that's nice. I've been limited to moving 15' a round because of my medium load." "A knight's pennon of battle that my 6th level character can buy? Sweet!"
Any low-level character is going to be excited to find a book that lets them scribe two level 4 spells for only 320 gold instead of 480. That means something whether or not you are playing Core.
So remember that this is a game that many people play and that half the reasons given were to make the game accessible to more people. If you don't want the limitations of Core that were created to make it more accessible, play Standard. I personally am NOT playing Core (though I am GMing some Core games).
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Apparently everyone responding doesn't seem to get the idea. There are no limitations listed. It says "any number of spells." But everyone here wants to interpret it in the most punitive way possible. This boon was written long before Core was considered. To me it seems like people wanting to keep any and every non-Core option out of the game no matter what (just look at Kevin Willis' post). The idea behind Core is earned access, people seem to be forgetting that.
I just asked the question to test the feasibility but I guess it doesn't matter. I already scribed the spells anyway (all three of them...so game breaking). I will hold to that definition until someone higher up says otherwise.
If you were playing in a home game, and your GM said his campaign only used the core rulebook and some set of 3rd party campaign books, would you insist you could use the Advanced Players Guide for spells?
Would you insist you could use all 3PP spells?
The point is, in Core, those spells simply don't exist except under specific circumstances. This book doesn't create one if those.
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Apparently everyone responding doesn't seem to get the idea. There are no limitations listed. It says "any number of spells." But everyone here wants to interpret it in the most punitive way possible. This boon was written long before Core was considered. To me it seems like people wanting to keep any and every non-Core option out of the game no matter what (just look at Kevin Willis' post). The idea behind Core is earned access, people seem to be forgetting that.
I just asked the question to test the feasibility but I guess it doesn't matter. I already scribed the spells anyway (all three of them...so game breaking). I will hold to that definition until someone higher up says otherwise.
Yes, it says any number of spells, but it doesn't say "any spell", and that is a significant difference. Because the item doesn't list any other limitations, spells that you would choose must be from legal sources, and the spell themselves must be legal. Nothing about this item changes that. The fact that the boon was created before CORE is immaterial, given the ruling of campaign management related to what is allowable in CORE.
If you have that (the book) on a chronicle, you have "earned access" to the book, and what comes with it, which is any number of spells, so long as their total levels don't exceed 8. It doesn't say it gives you access to any spell.
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Soluzar, I have a question for you.
Do you believe that this book would allow you to scribe spells that are explicitly not allowed in the additional resources if you got this boon from the Standard campaign?
I would say that is the equivalent comparison here for Core. You cannot normally have the spell, therefore you cannot get it unless something explicitly states the actual spell you are receiving.
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First, I only opened this thread to make sure of what I was doing.
Second, I still think I'm right but whatever. It seems that some people here are "OMG PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF CORE" or "HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME". And no it wouldn't allow for something not in Additional Resources, that's a silly assumption.
Third, I'm gonna get a corrected chronicle sheet and call it a day. If you think the character should be removed from Core for this...well you're entitled to your opinion but not much else.
Fourth, I probably sound like a jerk. It's because I just got DOGPILED over this issue.
Fifth, I am no longer going to follow this thread. Have a nice day.
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And no it wouldn't allow for something not in Additional Resources, that's a silly assumption.
Then I will assert this quote from the Core Campaign blog post:
At no time may any trait, feat, equipment, magic item, skill, animal companion, familiar, or any other character option come from a source beyond these three resources unless it appears on a Chronicle sheet. Race boons found on Chronicle sheets may not be used in the Core Campaign.
Fifth, I am no longer going to follow this thread. Have a nice day.
You as well.
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First, I only opened this thread to make sure of what I was doing.
Second, I still think I'm right but whatever. It seems that some people here are "OMG PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF CORE" or "HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME". And no it wouldn't allow for something not in Additional Resources, that's a silly assumption.
Third, I'm gonna get a corrected chronicle sheet and call it a day. If you think the character should be removed from Core for this...well you're entitled to your opinion but not much else.
Fourth, I probably sound like a jerk. It's because I just got DOGPILED over this issue.
Fifth, I am no longer going to follow this thread. Have a nice day.
I wouldn't say you got dogpiled. At least until you started calling 100% of those responding to you crazy.
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Second, I still think I'm right but whatever. It seems that some people here are "OMG PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF CORE" or "HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME".And no it wouldn't allow for something not in Additional Resources, that's a silly assumption.
Then by your own comment, you know yourself to be wrong. The Additional resources for the Core Campaign are:
Core Rulebook (Same restrictions as Normal Campaign)
Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play
Web Traits Enhancement (Same restrictions as Normal Campaign)
and the three Pathfinder Society Monday Blogs (Introducing the Core Campaign, No Habla Shoanti, and Scribing of Exotic Spells)
There 4 items are the entirety of the Additional Resources List for Core Campaign unless otherwise stated on a chronicle. You say you got Dogpiled? You ignored what everyone in this thread except yourself was saying and told us that our exact quotes of the rules were wrong. I'm sorry that you feel dogpiled, but you kind of brought that hammer upon yourself with the way you presented your rebuttals.
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It seems I spotted this a little late.
The boon in question does not open access to spells that are not currently available in the campaign. This is as true for the Core Campaign (in which it does not allow one to learn non-Core spells) as it is in the Standard Campaign (in which it would not allow one to learn a spell prohibited by the Additional Resources page).
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...As if I needed another reason why the 15pp vanity boon is superior to the book. Yeesh.
The book is, especially for non-spellbook casters, the worse choice, although it has its own issues.
It does have its benefits, but, as mentioned up-thread, it has a much lower value, overall, than the keep itself.
8 1st level spells is a savings, total, of 40 gp.
2 4th level spells is a savings, total, of 160 gp.
I think those are also the outer limits, minimum and maximum savings, other than not getting all 8 levels worth of spells, which is an even worse choice, for the benefit of this boon.
Even giving 1 PP a value equivalent of 150 gp, the keep only takes a couple of uses to beat the book for value.
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The best reason to take Fangwood Keep is if you're the kind of character who wants to run his own keep. The bonus prestige isn't that great.
Seriously, you must be joking.
I have a few characters with this boon that couldn't disagree with you more. I've bought scrolls of Dimension Door with it that saved prestige points from being lost as well as preventing TPKs. My utility items are always fully stocked with those characters, so I always have a solution. With one character (my -4), I have probably spent roughly 10k worth in items just on prestige that I haven't actually spent a single coin on, yet you can't tell because I get that spent prestige back.
Another perk that comes into play at high level, death is practically free to clear, provided you have the prestige for it. This boon saves you a truckton of coin in the long run and keeps on giving.
Ring, what I've heard a lot of people do is they go slow progression with characters that have the keep...
This is true, but that's more of a boon than anything. In my case, I made sure to put it on a character that not only would benefit greatly from it, but is actually a character I love playing. Honestly, if its a character you highly enjoy, why wouldn't you want to go slow track on it? The keep is just a nice extra perk of doing so.