Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh man, the pig kick tied that entire book together!I really like the new barbarian, rogue, and summoner. I do not ever play monks so no opinion on that one. However, I would rate the rogue as buff, barb as a little buff, and the summoner as a nerf. Still, I like the new summoner for the increased flavor of the eidolon with the templates. The new summoner spell list and evolutions also makes sense. Pounce should not be a 1 point evolution nor haste a second level spell.... after reading a couple of spoiler threads, I am pretty sure, that no matter what happens with the PFS ruling.. we are in for a fun couple of month of arguments.
Everything from "They have taken my will save away, now the class is ruined", to "My Eidolon can no longer pounce at level 1..therefore it is ruined" and "Rogues are no longer terrible, now I have to search for another class to bash... my afternoon is ruined!!!!1!!1!".
Fun for everybody^^
EDIT: And ready yourself for the occult classes, and plenty of GMs complaining about complexity (and players who do not understand their own class)... and Airbenders, and Metalbenders, and Bloodbenders ^^ (actually looking forward to that one).
I would not mind giving someone like bards haste as a second level spell (or maybe just a personal version), but yeah.
Now I just want to get the book... I am sure there are some nice pictures inside. UM had the Quigong monk pic (love it), ACG hat the Antipaladin kicking a pig... let's just say that I am expecting some unchained people^^
Well, since I have the pdf (got it Friday.. hours before I had to GM 3 slots at a convention.. ;) ) unchained has plenty a lovely picture (the cover is great since it has chains and unchaining, the class pictures aren't that great since they don't include chains or unchaining... and Sajans nipple tassels are out of place ^^) but the best one seems to be Selah facing a difficult decision ^^
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
I am currently working my way through the classes, Barbarian seems fine (really nothing I would worry about regarding PFS, and the class seems easier to run), Monk had one little error (but I already got an answer in the threat about the book - the Empty Body ki power should require level 18) the only thing that might make a couple of GMs unhappy is the fact, that Master of Many styles is one of the few (2-3) archetypes that are still compatible with the new class.
Not super happy, that they didn't mention in the book, how to differentiate the new classes and the old ones... and I suspect that multiclassing between them wasn't a big concern (I rather hope that PFS will decidedly close that loophole). And it doesn't mention other classes that "take" class features from existing/unchained classes (like the primal companion hunter and the skald) - PFS might have to address this.
Other than those logistical issues, PF Unchained seems to follow the trend of excellent game design started by the ACG. (I am planning to post a proper review, with PFS in mind - once we learn what will actually be legal).
|
Not super happy, that they didn't mention in the book, how to differentiate the new classes and the old ones... and I suspect that multiclassing between them wasn't a big concern (I rather hope that PFS will decidedly close that loophole).
Well, if you look at them as alternate classes you cannot multiclass them anyway, but then they weren't labeled as alternate classes.
Personally, when I looked through my subscriber PDF, I was quite excited about what might make it into PFS, and I'm hopeful that certain things might be allowed.
Global Organized Play Coordinator
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
John actually posted in a different thread that it will either be the 20th or the 27th, in a monday blog. I'm not a subscriber and am planning to pick this up from my FLGS, hopefully I'll be happy with the result as far as PFS is concerned.Unchained is hitting the download page for subscribers and lots of spoilers are now out there. Is there an ETA on when we might know what will and will not be PFS legal?It will be the Street Date for the book (April 29th) at the *earliest*.
The blog for how Unchained will be incorporated into PFS will be on the 27th.
|
|
I think early on Big Norse Wolf got it right.
Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue will all be legal (though I think rogue will get one tweak at 5th/10th/15th/20th they will get a skill focus instead of Rogue edge, because to bring in the edge, they would have to bring ALL the skill stuff and I don't see that happening).
Summoner will be made the normal form of summoner and the original will be banned, though existing summoners with XP will get grandfathered in. That is my suspicion, at least.
I don't think Stamina or any of the skill stuff will make it in. Nor do I see any of the magic items or magic stuff coming about.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
After reading the new summoner, I have to say it is a conceptually a different beast. They focus on the outsider aspect, and force an alignment structure, that makes certain Eidolons and concepts impossible.
They could just change the spell list and evolution cost, that would solve most problems.
|
Summoner will be made the normal form of summoner and the original will be banned, though existing summoners with XP will get grandfathered in. That is my suspicion, at least.
As a GM - it will be uncomfortable dealing with two types of summoners - possibly at the same table -switching back and forth between the summoner rules will make it harder on less experienced GMs as well). I have rarely found current crop summoners' eidolons calculated correctly (I had to change this statement from never, when I saw two in a row done within the rules).
I would prefer they just allowed a general rebuild like when they eliminated sythicist summoner. If people wanted to rebuild into new summoner then they could - or into a druid or hunter they could. The spell list might be a large part of why people became summoners so moving to the new one with low number a day cast and less impressive list is not inviting.
I have two summoners in my stable of characters (and a cleric who used to be a synthicist summoner) - one with a non-weapon using bipedal and one with an armless serpentine - what I will do with those two I don't know. From what I can see, neither convert well.
|
|
I am looking forward to see what gets implemented into PFS.
Me too.
My Wishlist would be the new classes (old classes grandfathered), VMC and Stamina system.
I'd love the BAB and saves change too, but I doubt they'll let it in due to it needing maths beyond counting to work out. Skill tricks are nice, but not game shattering.
but as for what they decide, who knows? All we know is there will be some inclusion apparently. And we know we have another week to wait...
|
|
Again. They can't make the standard versions of Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue illegal, as that would severely impact the Core Campaign.
I can't see the new summoner really coexisting with the old one. No idea how they'll handle that. I think the fairest solution would be to grandfather the old one but require new characters to use the new one.
While I'm pretty sure they wouldn't replace barbarian, monk, or rogue with the unchained version (nor would I want them to), they could do it in classic mode if they wanted to. There's no reason what they do in classic would impact core, and since Unchained isn't the CRB, would have no bearing on Core.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some people might argue, that the old rogue is a trap option, and personally I somewhat agree, but people will still be able to make bad characters, or play decent characters badly.
Removing material from the CRB, will do nothing but make the game more unattractive to start for new players, and communicating that whole classes from the damn CRB aren't PFS legal is ... not a conversation I want to have.
|
|
what about when someone switches from Core to Expanded? What do you do?While I'm pretty sure they wouldn't replace barbarian, monk, or rogue with the unchained version (nor would I want them to), they could do it in classic mode if they wanted to. There's no reason what they do in classic would impact core, and since Unchained isn't the CRB, would have no bearing on Core.Again. They can't make the standard versions of Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue illegal, as that would severely impact the Core Campaign.
I can't see the new summoner really coexisting with the old one. No idea how they'll handle that. I think the fairest solution would be to grandfather the old one but require new characters to use the new one.
You wait a week to see what management has to say about Unchained, instead of pointlessly speculating about the possibilities?
All I'm saying is that Management is going to do what they think is best for PFS. In the extremely unlikely case that they do completely replace the base classes with their Unchained counterparts, I'm sure that they will have most of the corner cases like you mention figured out. And if they don't, they will come up with a fair answer to the issue.
So I'm going to just not worry about it, and wait and see what they do with Unchained.
|
So how much of say the rogue got changed when it comes to archetypes?According to Mark Seifter in one of the threads on the Unchained rogue, the current rogue archetypes are compatible with the Unchained rogue.
The rogue just has additions to base in essence in addition to buffed rogue talents. The skill unlocks could just be substituted with a feat if they want to avoid skill unlocks. I do not see any rogue archetypes being affected at all.
The barbarian has a change to way rage works and buffs to some rage powers. I am not as sure but I doubt there would be compatibility issues with barbarians either.
However, the monk is a new class with most archetypes being broken. My gut instinct would be allowing the barbarian, rogue, and summoner in with the monk remaining out.
|
|
So how much of say the rogue got changed when it comes to archetypes?According to Mark Seifter in one of the threads on the Unchained rogue, the current rogue archetypes are compatible with the Unchained rogue.The rogue just has additions to base in essence in addition to buffed rogue talents. The skill unlocks could just be substituted with a feat if they want to avoid skill unlocks. I do not see any rogue archetypes being affected at all.
The barbarian has a change to way rage works and buffs to some rage powers. I am not as sure but I doubt there would be compatibility issues with barbarians either.
However, the monk is a new class with most archetypes being broken. My gut instinct would be allowing the barbarian, rogue, and summoner in with the monk remaining out.
Glad to hear none of the archetypes got broken for rogue.
I'm not a big barbarian player but hopefully there isn't too many complications when it comes to archetypes.
Yeah I got to agree. If the monk was changed that much, the only way I see Unchained Monks being playable in PFS is if each individual archetype was reworked to fit the Unchained Monk.
|
|
Unchained barbarian would have a real issue with the urban barbarian.
...that's the only "broken" archetype I can think of.
The Urban barbarian loses medium armor and fast movement for other benefits. Both of these are still there.
They also sub out rage for "controlled rage". The substitution should still work but would be a really bad way to get a "controlled" rage now with calm stance available. However, they can use a different stance for other benefits. Most peeps who used Urban barbarian pretty much stacked strength anyway.
Is there another issue that I overlooked?
|
|
Unchained barbarian would have a real issue with the urban barbarian.
...that's the only "broken" archetype I can think of.
The Urban barbarian loses medium armor and fast movement for other benefits. Both of these are still there.
They also sub out rage for "controlled rage". The substitution should still work but would be a really bad way to get a "controlled" rage now with calm stance available. However, they can use a different stance for other benefits. Most peeps who used Urban barbarian pretty much stacked strength anyway.
Is there another issue that I overlooked?
The issue, such as it is, is that it loops unchained!rage back to core!rage, by modifying stats instead of just adding bonuses. (I guess wild rager has the same issue, now that I think about it.) I don't mean to say that you can't swap the one for the other, but rather that I can't see PFS allowing it.
|
They also sub out rage for "controlled rage". The substitution should still work but would be a really bad way to get a "controlled" rage now with calm stance available. However, they can use a different stance for other benefits. Most peeps who used Urban barbarian pretty much stacked strength anyway.
Most people I've seen that used Urban Barbarian, used it for Dex instead of Str.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
So how much of say the rogue got changed when it comes to archetypes?According to Mark Seifter in one of the threads on the Unchained rogue, the current rogue archetypes are compatible with the Unchained rogue.
According to the book most archetypes will still work, if the class still has the class feature in question, or a class feature that is called out as equivalent (unchained rogue has one of them).
Summoner and monk are somwhat complicated, IIRC someone checked and from the RPG line of monk archetypes only the master of many styles and another one works.
The summoner creates some interesting questions when it comes to archetypes (like can you have a demon - fey eidolon ? ) and the new archetype from the player companion (that allows a cactus eidolon^^) doesn't seem to work with the new summoner.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
So how much of say the rogue got changed when it comes to archetypes?According to Mark Seifter in one of the threads on the Unchained rogue, the current rogue archetypes are compatible with the Unchained rogue.The rogue just has additions to base in essence in addition to buffed rogue talents. The skill unlocks could just be substituted with a feat if they want to avoid skill unlocks. I do not see any rogue archetypes being affected at all.
The barbarian has a change to way rage works and buffs to some rage powers. I am not as sure but I doubt there would be compatibility issues with barbarians either.
However, the monk is a new class with most archetypes being broken. My gut instinct would be allowing the barbarian, rogue, and summoner in with the monk remaining out.
Glad to hear none of the archetypes got broken for rogue.
I'm not a big barbarian player but hopefully there isn't too many complications when it comes to archetypes.
Yeah I got to agree. If the monk was changed that much, the only way I see Unchained Monks being playable in PFS is if each individual archetype was reworked to fit the Unchained Monk.
It is pretty clear, the unchained monk just cant take certain archetypes since he no longer has the required class features, of course with the unchained monk, some archetypes are pretty much unnecessary.
|
|
I've had a good look at the new class write ups in the pdf, and those who wanted more flavor for their summoner should enjoy what's coming (I think).
The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.
One of complaints I've heard from fans or the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.
Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. Basically, I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, not all of whom are combat monsters.
My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf (which I understand is needed) and the new ideas are little but a straight jacket, rather than anything to be excited about.
I hope I'm wrong and I hope someone can give me some info to allay my fears. But I suspect they'll be confirmed and then adopted for pfs, and my current summoner Will not be grandfathered in.
Take care,
Kerney
|
Designer
|
So how much of say the rogue got changed when it comes to archetypes?According to Mark Seifter in one of the threads on the Unchained rogue, the current rogue archetypes are compatible with the Unchained rogue.
According to the book too. The book tells you which classes are compatible with old archetypes and which one isn't compatible with old archetypes.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
But why use the book? We have you. ;)And, for some reason, this made me think of Pokemon. "We choose YOU, Rogue Eidolon!"
Which just begs the questions, what kind of subtype (Div, Devil, Angel, Elemental) does a Rogue Eidolon have ? (I guess it is one of those rare Designer Elementals ^^
They apparently only have the biped evolution as option, and don't even have a claw attack. Of course all of them get the [redacted] evolution which is more than fair ^^
|
|
But why use the book? We have you. ;)And, for some reason, this made me think of Pokemon. "We choose YOU, Rogue Eidolon!"Which just begs the questions, what kind of subtype (Div, Devil, Angel, Elemental) does a Rogue Eidolon have ? (I guess it is one of those rare Designer Elementals ^^
They apparently only have the biped evolution as option, and don't even have a claw attack. Of course all of them get the [redacted] evolution which is more than fair ^^
More then fair? The [redacted] evolution is OP, it needs to be nerfed, or at least be made available to non-Designer Elemental Eidolons (and non-Eidolons as well).
[redacted] for all!
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
But why use the book? We have you. ;)And, for some reason, this made me think of Pokemon. "We choose YOU, Rogue Eidolon!"Which just begs the questions, what kind of subtype (Div, Devil, Angel, Elemental) does a Rogue Eidolon have ? (I guess it is one of those rare Designer Elementals ^^
They apparently only have the biped evolution as option, and don't even have a claw attack. Of course all of them get the [redacted] evolution which is more than fair ^^
More then fair? The [redacted] evolution is OP, it needs to be nerfed, or at least be made available to non-Designer Elemental Eidolons (and non-Eidolons as well).
[redacted] for all!
Oh please, you know perfectly well that releasing [redacted] to the general public will destroy several quite profitable industries like the [redacted] industry. They lobby is just to strong, just think what would happen if [redacted] were made available to animal companions.... David would have a heart attack ...