The Society shaking off its chains?!


Pathfinder Society

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Grand Lodge

Today's blog on Pathfinder Unchained has me super excited. I'm especially looking forward to the changes to the rogue and monk. As I continue to throw money at my screen in hopes that the product will arrive sooner, I thought I'd make a dedicated thread asking, can we expect any parts of Unchained to affect PFS? It is a very different style of book, and I could see issues in letting it in to Society as is. At the least I'd expect special notes in the AR that other books wouldn't usually warrant.

Mike, John, I don't want to push and ask too much. But it'd be really nice to know if we can expect picking up the book to affect our PFS. Can we expect Unchained to be allowed in to Society in some capacity? Can we expect the main point of the book, reworking problem classes, to be allowed in any capacity? As new versions that can coexist, or perhaps changing key issues, or whatever other mutations you come up with to fuse the two versions, can we expect that we will get to use some part of our shiny new rogue, or simplified Barbarian, or fixed summoner?

Dark Archive

My non-magical, occasionally correct, and utterly non-binding crystal ball says that the answer is "no".

Though I agree that some of that stuff sounds like fun.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Well I subscribed to the hardcover line again (it is a bit expensive when you live in europe) and I am pretty exited for the book too.

As many have argued already a Pathfinder second edition would be quite troublesome for PFS, so I am in favor of every possible improvement to the Pathfinder RPG.

I expect the new classes to be mostly available as alternative classes (though I guess they would need to have a name/way to mechanically differentiate it from the existing versions) exept for some of the usual PFS reasons to remove options (crafting, evil etc.)

Regarding all the other classes, I would like the ability to use an alternative resource system for them (not unlike an archetype of you think about it).

Outright replacing an existing class with the new version (with some considerations regarding the additional resources requirements) could actually happen - after all the Pathfinder Team could just as well just copy and paste the new versions in the CRB as errata.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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As is the case for every hardcover book, the Pathfinder Society team has taken a careful look at Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained and discussed the implications of each portion and whether or not those parts would be a positive addition to the organized play campaign. We plan on sharing our conclusions closer to the book's release date.


John Compton wrote:
As is the case for every hardcover book, the Pathfinder Society team has taken a careful look at Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained and discussed the implications of each portion and whether or not those parts would be a positive addition to the organized play campaign. We plan on sharing out conclusions closer to the book's release date.

In that regard, I hope the changes to the rogue are implemented. Not because I like rogues (kinda meh on that), but only because I would never see them were it not for the Core Campaign.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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I've received all three reports from the three VO teams that have made suggestions on how to implement the book into PFS. The PFS team here at Paizo has taken our thoughts, as well as the recommendations of the VO teams, and we have formulated a plan of how we think things should work.

As John mentioned above, we will let you know what the final decision is closer to the release date.

Sczarni 3/5

I just want to put a totally unwarranted but very necessary thanks to John and Michael here, because I as a customer feel much more appreciated when listened to and that's just what you guys are doing (Even if just by responding to threads like these!). Keep up the good work!

All the donuts are mine, though.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Gets a mop so they can freely drool in anticipation

Scarab Sages 4/5

The class improvements sound like a step in the right direction. I especially like the sound of what they've done with Ki powers and the Monk in general. The Rogue improvements sound good, too. I hope the alternate classes make it in.

As for what to call them... Unchained Monk, Unchained Rogue, etc. seems simple enough.


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LINK

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
LINK

No links! Unchained!

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber

Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?

Grand Lodge

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Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?

Yes. Yes, you are.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?

I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".

4/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Michael Brock wrote:

I've received all three reports from the three VO teams that have made suggestions on how to implement the book into PFS. The PFS team here at Paizo has taken our thoughts, as well as the recommendations of the VO teams, and we have formulated a plan of how we think things should work.

As John mentioned above, we will let you know what the final decision is closer to the release date.

This sounds great.

I hope there are clear rules for those who might want to retrain from Rogue to Unchained Rogue as an example.

I hope the change to Rage is a general option open to Skalds, Bloodragers, and anyone else who would potentially rage.

Dark Archive 3/5

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Jiggy wrote:
Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".

That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.

Dark Archive 3/5

BretI wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

I've received all three reports from the three VO teams that have made suggestions on how to implement the book into PFS. The PFS team here at Paizo has taken our thoughts, as well as the recommendations of the VO teams, and we have formulated a plan of how we think things should work.

As John mentioned above, we will let you know what the final decision is closer to the release date.

This sounds great.

I hope there are clear rules for those who might want to retrain from Rogue to Unchained Rogue as an example.

I hope the change to Rage is a general option open to Skalds, Bloodragers, and anyone else who would potentially rage.

Same. I will happily buy the book and bring it with me to say "I'm playing an Unchained version of X".

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".
That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.

I would subscribe to all of these, ideally written by Dave Gross.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".
That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.

That's dinner the night before, not breakfast.

Silver Crusade

I will say that there's hope, since at least one Season 0 scenario used material from Unearthed Arcana. (I won't name it or what it used in case someone who hasn't played it yet reads this.) It's not a guarantee of anything, but it is significant precedent.

5/5 5/55/55/5

[total speculation]

You will be able to make a free one time leap onto the unchained version if you choose to do so

The barbarians, monk and rogues will live along side each other in relative peace

The old summoner will be grandfathered in, new summoners will be required to be the unchained version.

[/total speculation]

edit: if i wind up being right on the rogues I'll have to start a fund to buy this for new players who want to play a rogue.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

[total speculation]

You will be able to make a free one time leap onto the unchained version if you choose to do so

The barbarians, monk and rogues will live along side each other in relative peace

The old summoner will be grandfathered in, new summoners will be required to be the unchained version.

[/total speculation]

edit: if i wind up being right on the rogues I'll have to start a fund to buy this for new players who want to play a rogue.

I speculate that this speculation is correct, if anything the why the grandfathering would be handled is unclear.

Also since I have read this title way to many times, I have to ask.... when did Paizo turn evil (their creative director is a T-Rex, we should not be surprised)

The Sith Code(the one I like) wrote:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

EDIT: The fund is a good idea, if they don't bite, just entire them with the chance to play an Angel Summoner, I am told there will still be a sufficient number of butts involved. Once the have bought the book , sneakily remove a couple of pages from their CRBs.

5/5 5/55/55/5

sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I speculate that this speculation is correct, if anything the why the grandfathering would be handled is unclear.

For the summoner because pathfinder builds are finicky and you can't make changes without pulling the rug out from under some characters. Someone may have bought a lesser metmagic rod for their level "3" summoner spells, may fight in their eidolon with a lance but can't build a their charging eidolon under the new rules, feats might not work etc.

For the rest because unless they make unchained part of the core assumption you can't show the new guy the barbarian right out of the book and then say "oh he's been errattad you need this book to use him"

Scarab Sages 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Sean Hans wrote:
Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".
That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.
That's dinner the night before, not breakfast.

Why limit yourself to only one meal?

You can easily have "dessert" several times a day....

Silver Crusade 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gets a mop so they can freely drool in anticipation

Keep the mop handy, we're likely to need it afterword for all the tears when someones "baby" get's changed...

5/5 5/55/55/5

"Auntie" Baltwin wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gets a mop so they can freely drool in anticipation
Keep the mop handy, we're likely to need it afterword for all the tears when someones "baby" get's changed...

Hopefully this time you'll be able to adjust to any changes made from the laws of the universe suddenly shifting.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:
sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I speculate that this speculation is correct, if anything the why the grandfathering would be handled is unclear.

For the summoner because pathfinder builds are finicky and you can't make changes without pulling the rug out from under some characters. Someone may have bought a lesser metmagic rod for their level "3" summoner spells, may fight in their eidolon with a lance but can't build a their charging eidolon under the new rules, feats might not work etc.

For the rest because unless they make unchained part of the core assumption you can't show the new guy the barbarian right out of the book and then say "oh he's been errattad you need this book to use him"

Yeah, you can't force players to switch their current class for the new one, I am just curious if the grandfathering/removal of the original summoner class will happen after the books contents are sanctioned, or with the new season.

It think as a group, we have learned, that we can't be trusted with advanced knowledge.

They could just add the unchained class to a CRB Errata, if they wanted to. They could (and this doesn't seem unreasonable) allow the APG as a source for the new unchained variant.

As conflicted as I am about the original summoner class (numbers tend to rise a bit too quickly in some areas), I am actually not that concerned when it comes to PFS (of course my summoner has only just played the confirmation thus far.... and it wasn't pretty).


I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jessex wrote:
I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.

I am kind of torn myself. I despise how truly optimized summoners destroy scenarios, but I also understand a person's attachment to their characters as well. So I hope some accommodation will be given. Regardless, I am really looking forward to the book.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

It would be the Synthesist wars all over again. I'll start digging a foxhole just in case.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Memphis aka Mulgar

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Jessex wrote:
I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.

And of course since this is your requirement, you are going to spot all those summoner players That ten bucks, right?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jessex wrote:
I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.

I'm totally fine with being required to rebuild my Summoner. You're going to buy me the book so I can, right?


Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes. Therefore the solution is an outright ban or going to the unchained version and letting players with existing summoners rebuild. Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book complaints about the cost of the PDF strike me as at best sour grapes by people who want to keep characters that are overpowered.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes. Therefore the solution is an outright ban or going to the unchained version and letting players with existing summoners rebuild. Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book complaints about the cost of the PDF strike me as at best sour grapes by people who want to keep characters that are overpowered.

-Making people acquire the books would be kinda harsh

-The month between release and PDF would be a little offputting.
-The new class may not work with your build
-The new class may not work with your equipment

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes.
Nope. That's not even remotely correct, as plenty of people don't agree with you. Heck, the statement "A Wizard has the potential to be stronger than a Fighter" doesn't even have everyone agree.
Jessex wrote:
Therefore the solution is an outright ban or going to the unchained version and letting players with existing summoners rebuild. Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book complaints about the cost of the PDF strike me as at best sour grapes by people who want to keep characters that are overpowered.

No, that's a solution, and a really bad one at that. Forcing people to shell out a minimum of $10 to keep playing their character is stupid. If the original Summoner needs to be banned (and it's not even clear that it's going to be yet), then ban it and allow the standard rebuild process for banned materials, not some extra restrictive one that forces you to spend money.

Unless, of course, you're willing to pay for a copy of Unchained everyone who has a summoner so they can rebuild. After all, it was your idea.

And as for the sour grapes comment, I have the following to say:

  • My Summoner is level 14 and retired, and I have no plans on playing her again
  • I was going to buy Unchained anyway, even if none of it ends up PFS legal
  • $10 is a significant investment for quite a lot of people

  • Liberty's Edge

    Jessex wrote:
    Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes. Therefore the solution is an outright ban or going to the unchained version and letting players with existing summoners rebuild. Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book complaints about the cost of the PDF strike me as at best sour grapes by people who want to keep characters that are overpowered.

    Originally, I would have thought the same thing. I own pretty much all the hardcovers, and most of the people I play with do too. Then I started playing with people in PFS, talking about their characters and how to build them. I made a suggestion to someone that he tried something from the APG or Ultimate Combat. Turns out he could only afford the CRB and one other book, so he went with Ultimate Equipment. I told him PDFs were cheap, he replied he didn't own a laptop/smart phone/tablet to be able to bring them to the games, and PFS doesn't allow printouts. It kind of hit me just how lucky I was that I can spend thousands of dollars on hobbies every year. A couple years later, I think He's managed to buy 2 more hardcovers.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    PFS DOES allow watermarked printouts. Just not photo copies from the books.

    Liberty's Edge

    Have I been misinformed all this time? I guess that's what I get for not double checking everything everyone says always.

    EDIT - Actually, you're right that wasn't the problem. I think I knew that at one point, but have really been away from PFS for a while. Printing was the problem. Had no printer. I remember him saying later using public libraries was the way he printed off sheets for PFS, which was apparently doable, but nowhere near as convenient as having a book.

    That's what I get for staying on the forums past my bed time, let's my crappy memory ruin my own talking points. Still think expecting players to purchase something to continue using their PCs is a bit unreasonable.

    5/5

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    Jessex wrote:
    I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.

    What are you going to do about all of the actual full casters who are quite capable of doing the same and more to most scenarios?


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    andreww wrote:
    Jessex wrote:
    I hope, due to the scenario destroying effect of certain summoners, that all existing summoners are required to rebuild to the new version on the date that unchained becomes sanctioned for PFS. Yes, I know that will force people to buy a book they otherwise wouldn't or retire characters but I truly don't care. The PDF is only $10.
    What are you going to do about all of the actual full casters who are quite capable of doing the same and more to most scenarios?

    Like a diviner wizard that actually prepped a Scrying spell and used it at the start of the scenario, effectively skipping a third of the scenario. (That same wizard later turned a combat encounter into a one sided getaway chase scene, which was hilarious btw.) Or the Arcanist that did prepare Dazing Fireballs. Or the Thassilonian conjurationist that can crank out minions constantly...

    Dark Archive 3/5

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    Katisha wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    bdk86 wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    Sean Hans wrote:
    Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
    I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".
    That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.
    That's dinner the night before, not breakfast.

    Why limit yourself to only one meal?

    You can easily have "dessert" several times a day....

    Can we just make a series of meal oriented quests relating to Zarta?

    Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Bellevue aka Divvox2

    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    [total speculation]

    You will be able to make a free one time leap onto the unchained version if you choose to do so

    The barbarians, monk and rogues will live along side each other in relative peace

    The old summoner will be grandfathered in, new summoners will be required to be the unchained version.

    [/total speculation]

    edit: if i wind up being right on the rogues I'll have to start a fund to buy this for new players who want to play a rogue.

    This would be wonderful. I love my summoner, wacky as she is, and this would be wonderful. I just hope they keep the flexibility of the eidolon build, that's the flavor I enjoy the most. It lets you create a character that ranges from fierce to hilarious to creepypasta (mine!).

    Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

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    bdk86 wrote:
    Katisha wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    bdk86 wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    Sean Hans wrote:
    Am I the only one to think "Pathfinder Unchained: A Liberty ' s Edge Romance"?
    I was thinking something more like "Pathfinder Unchained: Breakfast with Zarta".
    That's Pathfinder Whips & Chains, different series.
    That's dinner the night before, not breakfast.

    Why limit yourself to only one meal?

    You can easily have "dessert" several times a day....

    Can we just make a series of meal oriented quests relating to Zarta?

    I KEEP THROWING MONEY AT THE SCREEN BUT NOTHING HAPPENS

    Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

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    If they had redone the Bard in Unchained, would Bard sing Unchained Melodies?

    5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere aka Rei

    Tim Statler wrote:
    If they had redone the Bard in Unchained, would Bard sing Unchained Melodies?

    Unchain My Heart?

    Lantern Lodge 5/5

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    I'm sad that Fighter doesn't get 5/4 BAB to mimic the uptick the monk gets.

    4/5

    Technically they already sort of do with their weapon training.

    Scarab Sages

    Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Smite. Slayer Studied Target.

    Scarab Sages 4/5

    And pretty much every 3/4 bab class has accuracy boosters except the rogue/ninja, which is one reason they're generally considered underpowered.

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