The Society shaking off its chains?!


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Sovereign Court 5/5

Imbicatus wrote:
Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Smite. Slayer Studied Target.

Cavalier's Challenge doesn't generally improve accuracy at all, only damage.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Mounted charging on a large mount with banner boni in tow does!

Scarab Sages

Kigvan wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Smite. Slayer Studied Target.
Cavalier's Challenge doesn't generally improve accuracy at all, only damage.

Several orders give a scaling morale bonus to hit.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Tim Statler wrote:
If they had redone the Bard in Unchained, would Bard sing Unchained Melodies?

Unchained by Van Halen.


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Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes.

I really must meet the scholar Everyone some day. The man has said so much... most of it wrong. ;)

More seriously: I know there's a loud segment of the forums that carries this opinion. The Summoner is certainly a class which can be heavily optimized and abused at the table. However, it hasn't been my experience that this happens a great deal. Not in my area, anyway. Over the last 2 years I have had 5 summoners at my table (one of them played by me) and none of them have dominated the play experience... or even been the most powerful character at the table. From my own impressions playing a (SLA focused) summoner, the strength in the class comes mostly from its flexibility rather than its ability to do damage. Granted, I've seen Eidolon focused summoners who can do more damage, but they don't come off as particularly stronger than any other front-liner class.

Is the Summoner class inherently strong? Absolutely.
Could the Summoner class be theoretically optimized to the point of dominating a table's play experience? Absolutely.
Is the Summoner class used to dominate play experience at the table? In my area, and in my experience, no.

Jessex wrote:
Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book...

That's a pretty big assertation. Even if a player can afford to buy the book (which isn't always the case), I've seen more than one case of a book getting passed up because PFS only minimally supports it. Mythic Adventures immediately comes to mind, along with a slew of the non-mainline splat books. Even if the majority of players had both the interest to buy the book and means to do so, making it a 'must purchase' to play an already existing character is a poor PR move. Give me the option to buy something and I'll salivate over it. Tell me that I must buy it if I want to keep playing my character, and I become a great deal more grudging about the purchase.

Jessex wrote:
...complaints about the cost of the PDF strike me as at best sour grapes by people who want to keep characters that are overpowered.

Regarding the 'overpowered characters' portion of that statement (because it's best if I leave the sour grapes portion alone)... I recently ran a table of Bonekeep 1 for a party that had very little difficulty with it. Everyone brought their 'A' game character. That party included a summoner. After having watched that group battle their way through all that the Bonekeep level could throw at them, I can say with strong certainty that the Summoner was far from the most powerful character in the group. Was he strong? Yes. But no more strong than any of the other classes. In fact, I'd put the summoner on the middling-to-low end of the party power scale for that particular group. Other classes can and do step up to overpower and outshine the summoner.

I understand that there are solid reasons for keeping the summoner class out of a home game. It's a strong, complex, and outright confusing class that has some even stronger and more complex archetypes. But I'm also seeing summoners in my area who are strongly character focused and acting more as the party generalist than anything else. I see no reason that ALL summoners should be banned or rebuilt.

3/5

Jason Hanlon wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes.

I really must meet the scholar Everyone some day. The man has said so much... most of it wrong. ;)

More seriously: I know there's a loud segment of the forums that carries this opinion. The Summoner is certainly a class which can be heavily optimized and abused at the table. However, it hasn't been my experience that this happens a great deal. Not in my area, anyway. Over the last 2 years I have had 5 summoners at my table (one of them played by me) and none of them have dominated the play experience... or even been the most powerful character at the table. From my own impressions playing a (SLA focused) summoner, the strength in the class comes mostly from its flexibility rather than its ability to do damage. Granted, I've seen Eidolon focused summoners who can do more damage, but they don't come off as particularly stronger than any other front-liner class.

Is the Summoner class inherently strong? Absolutely.
Could the Summoner class be theoretically optimized to the point of dominating a table's play experience? Absolutely.
Is the Summoner class used to dominate play experience at the table? In my area, and in my experience, no.

Jessex wrote:
Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book...
That's a pretty big assertation. Even if a player can afford to buy the book (which isn't always the case), I've seen more than one case of a book getting passed up because PFS only minimally supports it. Mythic Adventures immediately comes to mind, along with a slew of the non-mainline splat books. Even if the majority of players had both the interest to buy the book and means to do so, making it a 'must purchase' to play an already existing character is a poor PR move. Give me the option to buy something and I'll salivate over it. Tell me that I must buy it if I want to keep playing my character, and I become a great deal more grudging about the purchase....

Can we be friends?

Really though, I couldn't agree more. Summoners are strong, but not particularly borked more than many other classes.

Anecdote time:

Spoiler:
Reminds me of a recent game where I played my fairly unoptimized martial summoner. My pet has pounce and four attacks at 5th level. The pounce only came up once (maybe twice) and when it did, my pet missed 2 of the 4 attacks, and only did 12 damage. Upon seeing the 4 attacks on a charge, I got a lot of raised eyebrows and a few scoffs/comments. One of them came from the investigator that was rolling 30-40 (at 5th level) on most skill checks. Yeah. And I'm the broken one because I did 12 damage on a charge.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Imbicatus wrote:
Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Smite. Slayer Studied Target.

5/4 BAB on top of weapon training. Shouldn't the fighter be better at fighting than all of those other chumps?


And here we have it. Someone just tried to argue that a charge with 4 attacks, at full bonuses, at 5th level is not at all overpowered. The gold standard in PFS is supposed to be full BAB classes who do not gain iterative attacks until 6th.

Further the simple fact that summoner is in unchained at all is more than enough proof, for anyone without an axe to grind, that the class is overpowered. The rest of the classes included are out of the CRB and are getting facelifts to make them more viable not to tone them down. Only summoner of all extant classes was chosen to be reduced in power level in unchained.

Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Bellevue aka Divvox2

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Imbicatus wrote:
Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Smite. Slayer Studied Target.

And yet, damned if the brawler isn't incredibly fun. Not a primary damage dealer anyway, though, so go figure.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Jessex wrote:
And here we have it. Someone just tried to argue that a charge with 4 attacks, at full bonuses, at 5th level is not at all overpowered. The gold standard in PFS is supposed to be full BAB classes who do not gain iterative attacks until 6th.

4 attacks at level 5 that does around 24 damage isn't even remotely close to overpowered. A level 1 Barbarian can come close to (or exceed) that with a single hit. A level 5 Barbarian can easily be doing 2d6+15 with a nonmagical weapon, using just Rage and Power Attack.

Jessex wrote:
Further the simple fact that summoner is in unchained at all is more than enough proof, for anyone without an axe to grind, that the class is overpowered. The rest of the classes included are out of the CRB and are getting facelifts to make them more viable not to tone them down. Only summoner of all extant classes was chosen to be reduced in power level in unchained.

Again, this incorrect. The Barbarian is very explicitly not supposed to be getting a power increase.

Also, you're pretty clearly the only person here with an axe to grind.


The Fourth Horseman wrote:
Jason Hanlon wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes.

I really must meet the scholar Everyone some day. The man has said so much... most of it wrong. ;)

More seriously: I know there's a loud segment of the forums that carries this opinion. The Summoner is certainly a class which can be heavily optimized and abused at the table. However, it hasn't been my experience that this happens a great deal. Not in my area, anyway. Over the last 2 years I have had 5 summoners at my table (one of them played by me) and none of them have dominated the play experience... or even been the most powerful character at the table. From my own impressions playing a (SLA focused) summoner, the strength in the class comes mostly from its flexibility rather than its ability to do damage. Granted, I've seen Eidolon focused summoners who can do more damage, but they don't come off as particularly stronger than any other front-liner class.

Is the Summoner class inherently strong? Absolutely.
Could the Summoner class be theoretically optimized to the point of dominating a table's play experience? Absolutely.
Is the Summoner class used to dominate play experience at the table? In my area, and in my experience, no.

Jessex wrote:
Since I really doubt very many PFS players won't actually acquire the book...
That's a pretty big assertation. Even if a player can afford to buy the book (which isn't always the case), I've seen more than one case of a book getting passed up because PFS only minimally supports it. Mythic Adventures immediately comes to mind, along with a slew of the non-mainline splat books. Even if the majority of players had both the interest to buy the book and means to do so, making it a 'must purchase' to play an already existing character is a poor PR move. Give me the option to buy something and I'll salivate over it. Tell me that I must buy it if I want to keep playing my character, and I become a great deal more grudging about the
...

He speaks the truth! The summoner in our last module had its eidolon go down early and had to rely on nickle-and-diming with a summon or two that averaged 5pts of damage a round. Not to say that a summoner can't be powerful, but it's all situational.

Oh, and to address the "5 attacks a round (averaging 25 points of damage)" complaint... wait until that eidolon encounters... DR/10. That'd be a big fat goose-egg in the damage department at that point.


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The funny thing with summoners an an optimized eidolon? Dominating it then watching said summoner quickly dismiss his eidolon in fear.

Easily one of my favorite moments of PFS GMing.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Further the simple fact that summoner is in unchained at all is more than enough proof, for anyone without an axe to grind, that the class is overpowered. The rest of the classes included are out of the CRB and are getting facelifts to make them more viable not to tone them down. Only summoner of all extant classes was chosen to be reduced in power level in unchained.

Again, this incorrect. The Barbarian is very explicitly not supposed to be getting a power increase.

Also, you're pretty clearly the only person here with an axe to grind.

Check again. Barbarian is being simplified not powered down. As you can find out by reading the Paizo blog on the subject.

As to the rest I strongly suspect no one else is bothering with you guys because we've already won. We just have to wait for the book to come out.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

@Jessex: Take a deep breath, and take a step back.

@Jason: Current version Summoners are broken, badly, because it is incredibly easy to misunderstand the rules for building an eidolon, even for players/GMs with years of experience with multiple RPGs. I come from a background with Hero System/Champions, and I still have to fix, yet again, my lone third level Summoner's eidolon.


Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Weapon Training is 5/4 BAB. Hell, every full bab class except the Brawler and new Monk has accuracy boosters over full bab. Barbarian/Bloodrager Rage. Cavalier Challenge. Fighter Weapon Training. Gunslinger Touch AC Attacks. Ranger Favored Enemy. Paladin Sm

5/4 BAB on top of weapon training. Shouldn't the fighter be better at fighting than all of those other chumps?

There is more to fighting than just BAB.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jessex wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Further the simple fact that summoner is in unchained at all is more than enough proof, for anyone without an axe to grind, that the class is overpowered. The rest of the classes included are out of the CRB and are getting facelifts to make them more viable not to tone them down. Only summoner of all extant classes was chosen to be reduced in power level in unchained.

Again, this incorrect. The Barbarian is very explicitly not supposed to be getting a power increase.

Also, you're pretty clearly the only person here with an axe to grind.

Check again. Barbarian is being simplified not powered down. As you can find out by reading the Paizo blog on the subject.

As to the rest I strongly suspect no one else is bothering with you guys because we've already won. We just have to wait for the book to come out.

I never said powered down, I said they weren't being powered up. Your original claim was that they were.

As for "already won"? I was under the impression that no news on the PFS front had been revealed. Please, share with me your knowledge of the future. Oh, and that's completely irrelevant to you having an axe to grind, yet insisting that this is totally clear to anyone who doesn't.

Dark Archive 3/5

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kinevon wrote:

@Jessex: Take a deep breath, and take a step back.

@Jason: Current version Summoners are broken, badly, because it is incredibly easy to misunderstand the rules for building an eidolon, even for players/GMs with years of experience with multiple RPGs. I come from a background with Hero System/Champions, and I still have to fix, yet again, my lone third level Summoner's eidolon.

Agreed. Eidolons are needlessly complicated and fairly easy to break by simply building wrong/illegally. It is so frustrating, I actually used to bring the next character level version of my Eidolon with me to conventions because it was absolutely impossible to level up on the fly between sessions.

I'm glad to see tighter themes/bases more in line with Animal Companions. Hell, I'd even be fine if Evolution points were locked in once spent unless you spent money on a Transmogrify.

I like the spirit behind what Eidolons were intended to be: A system for custom building a pet from scratch. But in practice they don't work too well.


kinevon wrote:
@Jason: Current version Summoners are broken, badly, because it is incredibly easy to misunderstand the rules for building an eidolon, even for players/GMs with years of experience with multiple RPGs. I come from a background with Hero System/Champions, and I still have to fix, yet again, my lone third level Summoner's eidolon.

With that point, I agree completely. The class is overly complicated and could use some simplification. The difficulty to build one by the rules is actually my biggest problem with the class. I would salute any rebuilt version of the class that made the rules surrounding it easier to understand. Nor would I object if that rebuild lowered the inherent power of the class a few degrees.

As I've said before, the Summoner is an inherently strong class. If it were rebalanced to be closer to the level of an Inquisitor (which is probably the most balanced class in Pathfinder) then it'd be a more appealing choice all around. I enjoy the class for its versatility and for the fact that you can use the eidolon as a vehicle to pull off some fantastic fluff... but the mechanics are far from perfect.

The point I was trying to make in my posts above was that for all the criticism I heard of the class on the forums, I had a different experience when I sat down and had Summoners play at my table. Does the class still need work? Yup. It's too easily abused, both by accident and by 'accident.' But in response to a post that painted all summoners with the same wide brush stroke, the fact that it's not being abused is well worth pointing out. Again, I can only speak for my personal experiences in my region, but I felt that my experiences with 'some' Summoners were enough for me to point out that not 'all' Summoners are as Jessex seems to believe.

Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Bellevue aka Divvox2

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Jason Hanlon wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Does everyone agree that summoners are too strong? Yes.

I really must meet the scholar Everyone some day. The man has said so much... most of it wrong. ;)

More seriously: I know there's a loud segment of the forums that carries this opinion. The Summoner is certainly a class which can be heavily optimized and abused at the table. However, it hasn't been my experience that this happens a great deal. Not in my area, anyway. Over the last 2 years I have had 5 summoners at my table (one of them played by me) and none of them have dominated the play experience... or even been the most powerful character at the table. From my own impressions playing a (SLA focused) summoner, the strength in the class comes mostly from its flexibility rather than its ability to do damage. Granted, I've seen Eidolon focused summoners who can do more damage, but they don't come off as particularly stronger than any other front-liner class.

Is the Summoner class inherently strong? Absolutely.
Could the Summoner class be theoretically optimized to the point of dominating a table's play experience? Absolutely.
Is the Summoner class used to dominate play experience at the table? In my area, and in my experience, no.

I don't think the eidolon is terribly OP or anything. Maybe one or two evolutions could use cost adjustments, but overall, it's typically a step or two under most frontliners in straight combat, though has a wider range of options.

Summoner spells, however, are a little bonkers. The fact that they get a LOT of pretty snazzy spells early is impressive, though not terribly OP on its own. Mixed with the fact that the two are seperated and you basically get to cast a buff/combat/control spell AND work towards beating the tar out of something is where the math (in my mind) starts going off. Not to mention that the summoner's spell list is pretty amazing. All of these wonderful buff/debuff and utility spells, decent spells per day numbers, and cheap items that can make up for any gaps with it. I don't consider my eidolon terribly optimized (it's good, not optimized) and I was able to solo a BBEG fight in two rounds. DD'ed next to the mage so my Eidolon could wreck it, then Create Pit under a pile of mooks. (it was the first time I had played it after apply levels from an adventure path).

I LOVE the summoner, it's flavor, and the flexibility. But all of its abilities combined do seem a bit too much when compared to the flexibility range and action compression of other classes. I can see a number of ways the devs could make relatively small changes and re-balance all those extra actions with all the class abilities. Very few of them have to do with adjusting the Eidolon.

Dark Archive 3/5

The spell list definitely needs tweaking, especially the early access to Haste. Being able to haste a party in Tier 3/4 was all kinds of silly in Season 2. I'd honestly also like to see the SM SLA get reduced in uses per day as well. I *never* ran out once in my entire 1-12 career with my Summoner. Almost every Summoner will have decent Charisma for spellcasting; making it 1+CHR/day (vs 3+CHR/day) might be helpful.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

The newest blog... looks good, the "add more skills and give everyone more skill points options" and the multiclass alternative could work for PFS I guess.

Sovereign Court

bdk86 wrote:
The spell list definitely needs tweaking, especially the early access to Haste. Being able to haste a party in Tier 3/4 was all kinds of silly in Season 2. I'd honestly also like to see the SM SLA get reduced in uses per day as well. I *never* ran out once in my entire 1-12 career with my Summoner. Almost every Summoner will have decent Charisma for spellcasting; making it 1+CHR/day (vs 3+CHR/day) might be helpful.

Here here.

The class was ridiculous from the word go and elicits a huge "What were they thinking?" every time it comes up in discussion.

Glad they've done something about it.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Hey just curious if we know the answer to this question. Does the Campaign management know all they are going to allow and not allow and whatnot already or are they going to need to figure things out for sure after it's released? If they already know are they going to publish that the same day it's released?

I'd like to know because the speed at which I buy unchained will be correlated to how much and how soon it's PFS legal.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Chess Pwn wrote:

Hey just curious if we know the answer to this question. Does the Campaign management know all they are going to allow and not allow and whatnot already or are they going to need to figure things out for sure after it's released? If they already know are they going to publish that the same day it's released?

I'd like to know because the speed at which I buy unchained will be correlated to how much and how soon it's PFS legal.

John Compton wrote:
As is the case for every hardcover book, the Pathfinder Society team has taken a careful look at Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained and discussed the implications of each portion and whether or not those parts would be a positive addition to the organized play campaign. We plan on sharing our conclusions closer to the book's release date.
Michael Brock wrote:

I've received all three reports from the three VO teams that have made suggestions on how to implement the book into PFS. The PFS team here at Paizo has taken our thoughts, as well as the recommendations of the VO teams, and we have formulated a plan of how we think things should work.

As John mentioned above, we will let you know what the final decision is closer to the release date.

Closer to the books release, seems to indicate that they will be able to tell us "something" soonish.

Lantern Lodge 5/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16 aka Black Powder Chocobo

Wish I knew, too :P

On one hand, Mike stated that his team already have a plan set, but on the other, it doesn't mean the Additional Resources will be updated immediately.

I'll probably just pick it up, plan some ideas, and see how many are valid once the AR page is updated :)

Shadow Lodge

Divvox2 wrote:
I LOVE the summoner, it's flavor, and the flexibility. But all of its abilities combined do seem a bit too much when compared to the flexibility range and action compression of other classes. I can see a number of ways the devs could make relatively small changes and re-balance all those extra actions with all the class abilities. Very few of them have to do with adjusting the Eidolon.

This, I totally agree with. My favorite character concepts have come from this class. It is the only class I have two of, both which play very differently,

Spoiler:
one being fighter/buff summoner and eidolon, other being a skill monkey Eidolon/Summoning Summoner. One Eidolon is an "animal companion giant chicken" who also complains about humanoid customs being foolish, like how the Eagle Knights are bigoted for not allowing him to join, even though he is suited for it, having feathers and all. The other is the beloved wife of her summoner, who adore each other, and whose worry working for the Pathfinder Society is will it pay for their children's education (and I'm using my last Aasimar GM credit for their kid once they're retired)
My fear is that the Unchained version will kill character concepts. Essentially killing everything wonderful about my favorite class. I am considering quitting if my characters are essentially banned.

As far as I am concerned, "the Summoner is overpowered" crowd seems to have lead to an overreaction (though I do concead they have a point). I simply don't like what has been hinted at, previewed, whatever.

You can argue math or whatever, but the truth is, I don't want to.
This is not the powergamer in me speaking. This is the, "I love cool character concepts" part of me talking. This is my viceral, emotional reaction, and for everyone who is looking to seeing the Summoner chained, there are many in mourning if the unchained version becomes the only PFS legal summoner. It feels oddly, like loosing a love.

Please Understand,

Kerney

Silver Crusade

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Chess Pwn wrote:

Hey just curious if we know the answer to this question. Does the Campaign management know all they are going to allow and not allow and whatnot already or are they going to need to figure things out for sure after it's released? If they already know are they going to publish that the same day it's released?

I'd like to know because the speed at which I buy unchained will be correlated to how much and how soon it's PFS legal.

They may know, but they won't tell us until after release... because that would necessitate telling us what's in the book before it's released. ;)

5/5 5/55/55/5

Kerney wrote:


You can argue math or whatever, but the truth is, I don't want to.
This is not the powergamer in me speaking. This is the, "I love cool character concepts" part of me talking. This is my viceral, emotional reaction, and for everyone who is looking to seeing the Summoner chained, there are many in mourning if the unchained version becomes the only PFS legal summoner. It feels oddly, like loosing a love.

Please Understand,

Kerney

If you want the whacky thing there are no rules for, there's going to be a protean. I just think its going to be abit toned down from what you can make otherwise.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Renegade Paladin wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Hey just curious if we know the answer to this question. Does the Campaign management know all they are going to allow and not allow and whatnot already or are they going to need to figure things out for sure after it's released? If they already know are they going to publish that the same day it's released?

I'd like to know because the speed at which I buy unchained will be correlated to how much and how soon it's PFS legal.

They may know, but they won't tell us until after release... because that would necessitate telling us what's in the book before it's released. ;)

Something like "all class features and on pages 29-47 are legal except Demon Grasp and the Additional butts feat. " or "The four variant classes presented in this Book are PFS legal, excluding the following parts ...."

EDIT: Or "Since the following items could lead to fun, they are triple banned and will never ever appear on a chronicle sheet... ever. Also starting from today, all new characters have to start with a level of rogue..."

Sovereign Court

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Something like "all class features and on pages 29-47 are legal except Demon Grasp and the Additional butts feat. "

Aw man, I had the greatest build planned for that.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Also starting from today, all new characters have to start with a level of rogue..."

And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Quadstriker wrote:
And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

>:-(

The Exchange 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:
And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!
>:-(

I find this funny, cause at a recent game I was playing my (Crypt Braker) alchemist at, about the only PC not trained in Disable Device was the rogue. The Archer fighter and the Wizard both had it as a class skill (from diffferent traits),

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Quadstriker wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Something like "all class features and on pages 29-47 are legal except Demon Grasp and the Additional butts feat. "

Aw man, I had the greatest build planned for that.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Also starting from today, all new characters have to start with a level of rogue..."

And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

Plenty of classes have the potential for a decent disable device score, a fact that became pretty damn obvious to me when I played [redacted] on Wednesday.

To be honest, the skill does not seem that that useful to be honest in most PFS scenarios.

Silver Crusade

Quadstriker wrote:

And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

Could be worse. Played at a table not long ago full of 8th and 9th level characters where my +12 diplomacy was 13 to 15 points higher than everyone else at the table. And there were a ton of social encounters in the scenario. :-)

Please return to speculating on what will be legal...

Silver Crusade

Brett Carlos wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:

And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

Could be worse. Played at a table not long ago full of 8th and 9th level characters where my +12 diplomacy was 13 to 15 points higher than everyone else at the table. And there were a ton of social encounters in the scenario. :-)

Please return to speculating on what will be legal...

I do that on a regular basis; there are scenarios where one of my characters has single-handedly carried the whole thing because no one else had any social skills at all. XD

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere aka Rei

Renegade Paladin wrote:
Brett Carlos wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:

And yet I *still* cant find anyone at the table with disable device!

Could be worse. Played at a table not long ago full of 8th and 9th level characters where my +12 diplomacy was 13 to 15 points higher than everyone else at the table. And there were a ton of social encounters in the scenario. :-)

Please return to speculating on what will be legal...

I do that on a regular basis; there are scenarios where one of my characters has single-handedly carried the whole thing because no one else had any social skills at all. XD

I had to do that once when my character was the only one with any skills at all.

Or any interest in actually completing the mission. Everyone else, with the exception of one character who tried but didn't have any applicable skills, was content to get drunk and almost fail the mission and get us all killed.

5/5

Unchained is hitting the download page for subscribers and lots of spoilers are now out there. Is there an ETA on when we might know what will and will not be PFS legal?

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
andreww wrote:
Unchained is hitting the download page for subscribers and lots of spoilers are now out there. Is there an ETA on when we might know what will and will not be PFS legal?

It will be the Street Date for the book (April 29th) at the *earliest*.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

pH unbalanced wrote:
andreww wrote:
Unchained is hitting the download page for subscribers and lots of spoilers are now out there. Is there an ETA on when we might know what will and will not be PFS legal?
It will be the Street Date for the book (April 29th) at the *earliest*.

And until that day we have the rare opportunity to argue about stuff we want to be PFS legal ^^

EDIT: Personally I am quite curious how this change will interact with some archetypes... I might even lobby for my darling primal companion summoner again ^^

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

From the comments on the product page, it seems like there are many parts of the book that leave much to the interpretation of the GM. While this is absolutely the right way to go with a book of optional rules it would be highly problematic in PFS.

The variant multiclassing rules sound interesting but there are almost guaranteed to be significant balance issues (the combinations are so numerous that they can't possibly have all been play tested).

My guess is that the classes will be made legal and almost all of the rest of the book won't be. If the variant multiclassing is allowed I suspect the power creep will be quite significant over the next couple of months as new combinations are discovered.

I can't see the new summoner really coexisting with the old one. No idea how they'll handle that. I think the fairest solution would be to grandfather the old one but require new characters to use the new one.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

pauljathome wrote:

From the comments on the product page, it seems like there are many parts of the book that leave much to the interpretation of the GM. While this is absolutely the right way to go with a book of optional rules it would be highly problematic in PFS.

The variant multiclassing rules sound interesting but there are almost guaranteed to be significant balance issues (the combinations are so numerous that they can't possibly have all been play tested).

My guess is that the classes will be made legal and almost all of the rest of the book won't be. If the variant multiclassing is allowed I suspect the power creep will be quite significant over the next couple of months as new combinations are discovered.

I can't see the new summoner really coexisting with the old one. No idea how they'll handle that. I think the fairest solution would be to grandfather the old one but require new characters to use the new one.

It might even be possible to force the new spell list and the increased evolution costs on old summoners (from what I heard pounce seems to be a 3 point evolution that requires level 7 - instead of 1 point with no requirement. My level 7 hunter had her pet use pounce for the first time, and ... it is certainly very very strong), as long as players can maintain the appearance and general functionality of their Eidolon, it should be fine.

EDIT: From what I have learned about the new Rogue and Monk, I can't really see them coexisting.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


EDIT: From what I have learned about the new Rogue and Monk, I can't really see them coexisting.

They coexist as well as current rogue and ninja. IE very little overlap, but they play side by side just fine.

Personally, I have no interest at all in the new monk after I learned they no longer have a good will save.

Still exited about the unchained rogue though.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

... after reading a couple of spoiler threads, I am pretty sure, that no matter what happens with the PFS ruling.. we are in for a fun couple of month of arguments.

Everything from "They have taken my will save away, now the class is ruined", to "My Eidolon can no longer pounce at level 1..therefore it is ruined" and "Rogues are no longer terrible, now I have to search for another class to bash... my afternoon is ruined!!!!1!!1!".

Fun for everybody^^

EDIT: And ready yourself for the occult classes, and plenty of GMs complaining about complexity (and players who do not understand their own class)... and Airbenders, and Metalbenders, and Bloodbenders ^^ (actually looking forward to that one).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

... after reading a couple of spoiler threads, I am pretty sure, that no matter what happens with the PFS ruling.. we are in for a fun couple of month of arguments.

Everything from "They have taken my will save away, now the class is ruined", to "My Eidolon can no longer pounce at level 1..therefore it is ruined" and "Rogues are no longer terrible, now I have to search for another class to bash... my afternoon is ruined!!!!1!!1!".

Fun for everybody^^

EDIT: And ready yourself for the occult classes, and plenty of GMs complaining about complexity (and players who do not understand their own class)... and Airbenders, and Metalbenders, and Bloodbenders ^^ (actually looking forward to that one).

I really like the new barbarian, rogue, and summoner. I do not ever play monks so no opinion on that one. However, I would rate the rogue as buff, barb as a little buff, and the summoner as a nerf. Still, I like the new summoner for the increased flavor of the eidolon with the templates. The new summoner spell list and evolutions also makes sense. Pounce should not be a 1 point evolution nor haste a second level spell.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Alceste008 wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

... after reading a couple of spoiler threads, I am pretty sure, that no matter what happens with the PFS ruling.. we are in for a fun couple of month of arguments.

Everything from "They have taken my will save away, now the class is ruined", to "My Eidolon can no longer pounce at level 1..therefore it is ruined" and "Rogues are no longer terrible, now I have to search for another class to bash... my afternoon is ruined!!!!1!!1!".

Fun for everybody^^

EDIT: And ready yourself for the occult classes, and plenty of GMs complaining about complexity (and players who do not understand their own class)... and Airbenders, and Metalbenders, and Bloodbenders ^^ (actually looking forward to that one).

I really like the new barbarian, rogue, and summoner. I do not ever play monks so no opinion on that one. However, I would rate the rogue as buff, barb as a little buff, and the summoner as a nerf. Still, I like the new summoner for the increased flavor of the eidolon with the templates. The new summoner spell list and evolutions also makes sense. Pounce should not be a 1 point evolution nor haste a second level spell.

I would not mind giving someone like bards haste as a second level spell (or maybe just a personal version), but yeah.

Now I just want to get the book... I am sure there are some nice pictures inside. UM had the Quigong monk pic (love it), ACG hat the Antipaladin kicking a pig... let's just say that I am expecting some unchained people^^

Sovereign Court

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


I would not mind giving someone like bards haste as a second level spell (or maybe just a personal version), but yeah.

Allegro is kinda sorta...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/allegro

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Quadstriker wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


I would not mind giving someone like bards haste as a second level spell (or maybe just a personal version), but yeah.

Allegro is kinda sorta...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/allegro

Nice ^^

Grand Lodge

pH unbalanced wrote:
andreww wrote:
Unchained is hitting the download page for subscribers and lots of spoilers are now out there. Is there an ETA on when we might know what will and will not be PFS legal?
It will be the Street Date for the book (April 29th) at the *earliest*.

John actually posted in a different thread that it will either be the 20th or the 27th, in a monday blog. I'm not a subscriber and am planning to pick this up from my FLGS, hopefully I'll be happy with the result as far as PFS is concerned.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Alceste008 wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

... after reading a couple of spoiler threads, I am pretty sure, that no matter what happens with the PFS ruling.. we are in for a fun couple of month of arguments.

Everything from "They have taken my will save away, now the class is ruined", to "My Eidolon can no longer pounce at level 1..therefore it is ruined" and "Rogues are no longer terrible, now I have to search for another class to bash... my afternoon is ruined!!!!1!!1!".

Fun for everybody^^

EDIT: And ready yourself for the occult classes, and plenty of GMs complaining about complexity (and players who do not understand their own class)... and Airbenders, and Metalbenders, and Bloodbenders ^^ (actually looking forward to that one).

I really like the new barbarian, rogue, and summoner. I do not ever play monks so no opinion on that one. However, I would rate the rogue as buff, barb as a little buff, and the summoner as a nerf. Still, I like the new summoner for the increased flavor of the eidolon with the templates. The new summoner spell list and evolutions also makes sense. Pounce should not be a 1 point evolution nor haste a second level spell.

I would not mind giving someone like bards haste as a second level spell (or maybe just a personal version), but yeah.

Now I just want to get the book... I am sure there are some nice pictures inside. UM had the Quigong monk pic (love it), ACG hat the Antipaladin kicking a pig... let's just say that I am expecting some unchained people^^

Oh man, the pig kick tied that entire book together!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I've had a good look at the new class write ups in the pdf, and those who wanted more flavor for their summoner should enjoy what's coming (I think).

I can't wait to see what's making it into pfs, but there's so much stuff in there that I just can't see them including (which is a crying shame, cos a lot of it is awesome).

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