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As the title says. Like my older build, this is a rulership vairant channeling focused cleric. Unlike my other build, however, it uses it's high cha in tandem with the evangelist archtype for super-buffing instead of trying to be semi-compitent at melee, sacrificing low level survivability for more raw buffing power. Sadly, I can't start dazing mobs until level 3, but having the full buffing power of a bard as well as WAY better initative thanks to noble scion(Since I can't take channeling feats at level 1.) I think more then makes up for the delaying the dazeing funtimes...anyway...here is a -rough- build, that I'd like some help with...
Race: Human
Class: Cleric of Dispater(Or Ra...but I prefer Dispater for fluff reasons)
Archtypes: Evangelist
Alignment: LN
Abilities:
Strength: 7
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 13
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 19
Traits:
Reactionary
Sacred Conduit
Skills:
Maxed: Diplomacy, Perform (Oratory), Spellcraft, Perception
Others: Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Nobility)
1st: Evangelist(Cleric) 1: Domain(Nobility: Leadership), Sermonic Performance (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate), Public Speaker, Spontaneous Conversion(Evangelist), Aura, Feats: Noble Scion(War), Lingering Performance +1 Skill Point
2rd: Evangelist(Cleric) 2: +1 Skill Point
3rd: Evangelist (Cleric) 3: Channel Negative Energy (Variant Channeling: Rulership), Feat: Selective Channeling, +1 Skill Point
4th: Evangelist (Cleric) 4: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
5th: Evangelist(Cleric) 5: Channel Negative Energy, Feat: Improved Channel +1 Skill Point
6th: Evangelist(Cleric) 6: +1 Skill Point
7th: Evangelist (Cleric) 7: Channel Negative Energy , Feat: Quick Channel
8th: Evangelist (Cleric) 8: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
9th: Evangelist (Cleric) 9: Sermonic Performance (Inspire Greatness), Feat: Command Undead +1 Skill Point
10th: Evangelist(Cleric) 10: + 1 Skill Point
11th: Evangelist(Cleric) 11: Channel Negative Energy, Feats: Divine Interference, +1 Skill Point
So...any ideas on how to improve this, if any? Does it look good as-is? Thoughts would be appreciated!
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Yeah, I prefer a more "western" deity...I'm not looking to make a character with ties to Osrion in any way and prefer the dark/sinister/devilish fluff of Dispater and as a cleric, deity fluff is DEEPLY important to me. Divine Protection I would take at level 5, but it is not legal in pathfinder society sadly, and this build is for PFS. If it where not for PFS though I'd definitely take it. Quick Channel at level 5 is something I'll do, though is delaying improved channel to 7th level a smart idea? Also, if not taking lingering performance at level 1, what should my second human feat be? I can't take Improved Channel, or any channel boosting feats at level 1? Would be going, say, the human vairent that gets +2 to two stats for 16 starting wis be worth it, in this case?
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My thoughts:
1st: Evangelist(Cleric) 1: Domain(Nobility: Leadership), Sermonic Performance (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate), Public Speaker, Spontaneous Conversion(Evangelist), Aura, Feats: Noble Scion(War), Lingering Performance +1 Skill Point
3rd: Evangelist (Cleric) 3: Channel Negative Energy (Variant Channeling: Rulership), Feat: Selective Channeling, +1 Skill Point
5th: Evangelist(Cleric) 5: Channel Negative Energy, Feat: Improved Channel +1 Skill Point
7th: Evangelist (Cleric) 7: Channel Negative Energy , Feat: Quick Channel
9th: Evangelist (Cleric) 9: Sermonic Performance (Inspire Greatness), Feat: Command Undead +1 Skill Point
11th: Evangelist(Cleric) 11: Channel Negative Energy, Feats: Divine Interference, +1 Skill Point
My Thought Process:
1) Cha of 20 will net a +5 Initiative rather than a +4 from Improved Initiative. The daze Channel is your schtick you want it up and running ASAP. This only delays your initiative at levels 1 and 2. You can retrain the feats later (at or after level 3) to get the extra Initiative if you like.
2) Your primary role is debuff. Take care of that trick before adding the buffing stuff, like Lingering Performance.
3) Quicken Channel, I think, will be rather useless to you. You will rarely, if ever, want to spend 3 uses of Channel to force 2 saves. Chances are if it fails on the first, it will fail on the second, and one round probably won't kill you. Besides, you will hopefully have other options for swift actions. Flagbearer will probably serve much more of a benefit, especially if you get a banner of ancient kings to go with it.
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Thats well and nice, but I can't take selective and improved channel at level 1 as I don't meet the prerequisite of having channel energy as evangelists don't count as having the "channel energy" class feature until level 3 due to losing their first level channel for bardsong...so Noble Scion of War is better them Improved Initiative since with the 20+ cha I'll have I'll have +7-8, instead of +6 from improved initiative.. here, since it's literally the best feat I can take at first level, since I CAN'T take selective and/or improved channel until level 3+.
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Final Thought:
You will not be much of a melee, just support and debuff it looks like. You will be darned good at those.
Retrain Improved Channel to Noble Scion of War at level 3 prior to feat selection. Chose Improved Channel as your level 3 Feat.
Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn't require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.
Get a Dueling enchant on a spiked gauntlet (since it is eternally wielded) and get a circlet of Persuasion as quick as you can.
Banner of Ancient Kings: +4 Circumstance Bonus to Initiative.
Circlet of Persuasion: +3 Competence Bonus to Charisma Checks (With Noble Sion of War, Initiative is a Charisma Check, see sentence 2 of Initiative definition)
Dueling Enchant: +4 Enchantment Bonus to Initiative
Headband of Charisma +N: +1-3 bonus to initiative
22 Charisma: +6 Bonus to Initiative
Reactionary: +2 Trait Bonus to Initiaitve
= +22 total to initiative.
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions.
You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.
When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings—once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.
If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.
As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).
Getting Rulership from Horus does have a huge boost in that you get access to the Sun Domain. Being able to completely ignore the channel resistance of undead is really nice for a channel-based cleric.
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Yeah. I get that. I just can't take selective channel or improved channel until level 3 by virtue of having no "channel energy" class feature until level 3. Are you saying to re-train my human bonus feat to either improved channel or selective channel and take the other I didn't retrain into as my 3rd level feat? If thats possible in PFS without tons of prestige that would be best, as this would be my first PFS character so my prestige would be VERY low starting off...
Also, I want the bardsong at level 1...re-training into an archtype seems dumb, cheesy and makes ABSOLUTLY NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER from an RP perspective...and I actually care about RP. So I'd rather just retrain the feats then randomly suddenly become an evangelist at level 3.
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Funny, I was just thinking about a similar build. Mine used Theologian (Fire Domain), along with metamagic reduction traits and Spell Specialization to follow up the quick dazing channel with an empowered Fireball.
Retraining a feat at 3rd level in PFS will cost you 150gp and 5 Prestige. It's a big chunk of prestige, but easily doable by 3rd. One feat I would recommend for your build is Battle Cry from ACG. Ignore the morale bonuses it provides--it's still a swift action contingent Saving Finale for the entire party, 6+ times per day.
Just for reference you could be a cleric of Ra and do both. Heck be a diabloist and then your a great summoner as well.
That was the plan. I hadn't considered Diabloist though.
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How where you blasting with such low wis, may I ask? If you where dumping everything into cha, wis must have been low, which means that most creatures would defiently be making their saves against fireballs and the like...how did you get enough wis to make blasting actually good? Was this back when aasimairs where PFS legal and you used the +2 wis, +2 cha to get a starting wis of 16?
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Alright, after taking all your advice into consideration..current build looks like this...
Traits:
Sacred Conduit
Reactionary
1st: Evangelist(Cleric) 1: Domain(Nobility: Leadership), Sermonic Performance (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate), Public Speaker, Spontaneous Conversion(Evangelist), Aura, Feats: Noble Scion(War), Lingering Performance +1 Skill Point
2rd: Evangelist(Cleric) 2: +1 Skill Point
3rd: Evangelist (Cleric) 3: Channel Negative Energy (Variant Channeling: Rulership), Feat: Selective Channeling, +1 Skill Point (Retrain Lingering Performance to Improved Channel here)
4th: Evangelist (Cleric) 4: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
5th: Evangelist(Cleric) 5: Channel Negative Energy, Feat: Command Undead +1 Skill Point
6th: Evangelist(Cleric) 6: +1 Skill Point
7th: Evangelist (Cleric) 7: Channel Negative Energy , Feat: Battle Cry
8th: Evangelist (Cleric) 8: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
9th: Evangelist (Cleric) 9: Sermonic Performance (Inspire Greatness), Feat: Flagbearer +1 Skill Point
10th: Evangelist(Cleric) 10: + 1 Skill Point
11th: Evangelist(Cleric) 11: Channel Negative Energy, Feats: Divine Interference, +1 Skill Point
Also, strange question...but...if I mannaged to jack up my initiative realy, really high(such as by taking both Noble Scion of War AND improved initiative, as well as the reactionary trait for +11-12 initiative before charisma jacking, would it be possible to delay taking selective channel until later, or perhaps not even take it at all, and instead just try and always go first and daze out the enemies before my allies can get caught in the radius of the daze/utilize good positioning and then spend the rest of the combat buffing/being the "white mage"....at least until I could pick up selective channel later on? (Like level 5). I ask because I'd like to try a build like this outside of PFS/in a home game and feat re-training may not be allowed in such an instance. So in that case could selective channel be delayed to level 5 if thats the case? Or would it be better to just take it at level 3 and delay improved channel to level 5? Thoughts/opinions on this would be nice...
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That sucks. Oh well, how would you suggest running this in a home game with no feat retraining allowed, then? Is it -ok- to delay improved channel until level 5? Or should I try and -concince- the DM to let me take it at level 1 despite not having channel until level 3? What if he/she says no to that? How painful would it be delaying improved channel to level 5 in such a game?
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I see, if thats the case would it be better to take spell focus(Conjuration) and Augment summoning at level 1, and then grab sacred summoning at level 7, with selective and improved channel at levels 3 and five respectively? Having the summoning option would, indeed, give me something else to do when the usual trick of "daze mobs" fails, and make also give me something other then buffing to do at level 1..This also, IMO, gives me a reason to take Dispater other then fluff...Lawful Evil has significantly -better- sacred summons choices then Ra and Hours' LN, which means I save a feat on not having to take summon X alignment creature to actually get good choices, making Dispater actually good for something other then fluff and the vairant channel, here....thinking a summoning/daze build would look something like this...
1st: Evangelist(Cleric) 1: Domain(Nobility: Leadership), Sermonic Performance (Inspire Courage, Countersong, Fascinate), Public Speaker, Spontaneous Conversion(Evangelist), Aura, Feats: Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning +1 Skill Point
2rd: Evangelist(Cleric) 2: +1 Skill Point
3rd: Evangelist (Cleric) 3: Channel Negative Energy (Variant Channeling: Rulership), Feat: Selective Channeling, +1 Skill Point
4th: Evangelist (Cleric) 4: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
5th: Evangelist(Cleric) 5: Channel Negative Energy, Feat: Improved Channel +1 Skill Point
6th: Evangelist(Cleric) 6: +1 Skill Point
7th: Evangelist (Cleric) 7: Channel Negative Energy , Feat: Sacred Summons
8th: Evangelist (Cleric) 8: +1 Cha, +1 Skill Point
9th: Evangelist (Cleric) 9: Sermonic Performance (Inspire Greatness), Feat: Superior Summoning OR Extend Spell +1 Skill Point
10th: Evangelist(Cleric) 10: + 1 Skill Point
11th: Evangelist(Cleric) 11: Channel Negative Energy, Feats: Divine Interference, +1 Skill Point
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I see, makes sense, to say the least. However, I do like the dazing/summoning idea that I posted above, for the evangelist of dispater, anyway. For any other build I'd say ra or hours would be better, sadly, but since I'm going dispater for fluff reasons the idea to go with summoning + dazing seems, IMO, pretty darn good. Do you think the summoning/daze build I have above is good enough or are there some changes you'd make?
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Yeah, trickery domain would be nice solely for invisibility, let alone time stop and the mirror image at 1st level. . Since everything I do other then dazing doesn't drop invis in fights where dazing isn't practical Invis becomes a VERY powerful tool for survival. Only downside is I don't have enough skill ranks for bluff, but oh well...diplomacy is the best social skill anyway, and I have it, so I shouldn't complain. Also, yeah, summoning really does seem like the best thing to combined with the dazing, here, since it's the one thing dispater clerics can do better then clerics of Ra or hours and if I'm set on dispater 100% I may as well play to the strengths of my deity...
This is Nefertiti Abdul, my dazing Evangelist build for a Razor Coast game.
Nef was designed to ride around on her Haast's Eagle (3rd party animal companion from the Razor Coast world), buff and use her dazing channel when positioned to exclude the people she needs to exclude. I have seriously enjoyed playing her so far, though she is built quite differently from your character.
Variant channeling isn't an archetype though is it?
A character who has the channel energy ability from a class other than cleric may use these variant channeling rules if the class’s abilities are tied to serving a deity. For example, paladins can select alternative channeling abilities if they serve a deity, as can oracles with the Life mystery (as they serve many deities), but necromancer wizards cannot.
I don't see why they wouldn't be compatible. It'd be like claiming a Scroll Scholar can't be a word caster because the Scroll Scholar archetype modifies spell casting.
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@Lord Kallas: Yes, Variant Channeling is a Cleric Archetype/Alternate Class Feature. Look on the Cleric table of Archetypes/Alternate Class Features. Both Variant Channeling and Evangelist modify the cleric's channel class ability. Therefore these options are not compatible.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
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@Lord Kallas: Yes, Variant Channeling is a Cleric Archetype/Alternate Class Feature. Look on the Cleric table of Archetypes/Alternate Class Features. Both Variant Channeling and Evangelist modify the cleric's channel class ability. Therefore these options are not compatible.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
what class table are you looking at?
Archives of Nethys (which is an official source) does not list it as an archetype. It does however, list variant channeling as a ruleset, same as domains.
What you quoted is talking about alternate class features provided by archetypes. Not alternate class features in general.
edit: are you talking about the table on D20PFSRD? To start with, while it is quite good and useful, it's not an official source and so anything you see there should be checked against an official source (AoN or the book it comes from). Additionally, that same table also lists inquisitions and subdomains. These are also not cleric archetypes and are not governed by the rules that archetypes are. A Devilbane Priest should be able to take a subdomain, provided they qualify for said subdomain. Even though both the subdomain rules and archetype modify a cleric's domains.
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Unless I'm out of date on this I don't think it is clear. Bloodline mutations, Advanced Versatile Performances and Alternative Capstone Abilities are explicitly excluding from stacking with archetypes, wildblooded though similar to sub-domains are archetypes so they can be used.
On the other side are sub-domains and subschools which can be used with archetypes that alter domains and schools. So can herbalism for druids, blood hexes, spirit specialization, skald sagas, and bardic masterpieces, and numerous other alternate class features.
I hope I did a good job of saying I don't know.
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Variant channeling comes from ultimate magic. It is described there as an "alternative effect" and it is never called an archetype.
The archives of nethys has that section of text under variant channeling pretty much identical beyond some formatting stuff. It is still not at all mentioned as an archetype.
Archetypes have certain rules when you choose one, and when you choose to stack multiple ones. Of note here,
"A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
and
"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature."
Of course, that first quote IS specific to abilities that are replaced and not simply altered, and there have been a few faq's that might touch on any given ability as well.
The second one, the one that limits replacements and alterations, is specific to other archetypes - not other optional alterations that you may be able to apply to any individual class feature.
So there are no specific rules that prevent them from working together. A couple notes on some of the examples above though - bloodline mutations CAN work with an archetype. The caveat is that you cannot swap a bloodline power that has been altered or replaced with an archetype for a bloodline mutation. You could still swap an unaltered power, or a bonus bloodline feat for a bloodline mutation.
Similarly, you can take advanced versatile performances with an archetype, as long as that archetype isn't altering or replacing versatile performance specifically.
Wildblooded is an archetype, so it stacks (or doesn't) following the normal archetype stacking rules.
One thing to keep in mind though is that if an archetype replaces channel energy or significantly alters it with specific limitations, then the variant channel options may no longer be applicable. For example, the Idealist cleric invoke realm alters channel energy in such a way that you are not channeling positive or negative energy - which negates variant channeling.
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Umm, I strongly believe Variant Channeling and Evangelist should not work together. The combination leads to exploits. I'd probably rule against it were I GMing PFS and had to make a snap decision, since we on the forum are having a difficult time deciding. Fine in a home game, so long as you warn the GM your PC is going to be trouble. The problem is that Dazing Variant Channel can easily lead to a hideously overpowered, game-breaking character that is hard for the GM to handle. If you add full Bardsong on top (perhaps with Flagbearer & Banner of the Ancient Kings) it becomes even more ridiculous. Personally I'd not allow such a monstrosity even in my home game. I tested that combination build years ago and eventually decided that it was both unbalanced and illegal. That's why the linked OP character is not also an Evangelist archetype cleric. Please only do this if your GM BOTH fully understands and approves, and you're at a table containing only hyper-powergaming munchkins. Maybe don't do it at all unless your GM is very experienced and has a plan to handle your PC.
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Umm, I strongly believe Variant Channeling and Evangelist should not work together. The combination leads to exploits. I'd probably rule against it were I GMing PFS and had to make a snap decision, since we on the forum are having a difficult time deciding. Fine in a home game, so long as you warn the GM your PC is going to be trouble. The problem is that Dazing Variant Channel can easily lead to a hideously overpowered, game-breaking character that is hard for the GM to handle. If you add full Bardsong on top (perhaps with Flagbearer & Banner of the Ancient Kings) it becomes even more ridiculous. Personally I'd not allow such a monstrosity even in my home game. I tested that combination build years ago and eventually decided that it was both unbalanced and illegal. That's why the linked OP character is not also an Evangelist archetype cleric. Please only do this if your GM BOTH fully understands and approves, and you're at a table containing only hyper-powergaming munchkins. Maybe don't do it at all unless your GM is very experienced and has a plan to handle your PC.
There's a big difference between saying a certain combination shouldn't be allowed because its OP and saying the rules don't allow it. We've banned the use of certain abilities at our table because they can be exploited when combined with other things. I would never tell someone those abilities we've banned are "against the rules".
Your original post was that the two abilities "couldn't" be stacked not that they "shouldn't" be stacked. It sounds like we are in agreement now. One of the reasons I theorycraft is to find loopholes and exploits. Not so that I can break the game, but so I can make reasonable houserules that keep the game from getting broken. To keep me from having a kneejerk reaction to something that actually isn't OP.