Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action.
thoughts are i would use a trip combat maneuver to cause enemy prone, then decide to fight defensively taking -4 to hit but trying to hit -4 prone ac foe. my ac bonus would stay up till next turn?
gm thinks it should be declared at start of your turn.
what about activating FD when taking an attack of opportunity?
Pretty sure that is a "no" on both counts.
As you stated, fighting defensively is a standard action. The combat maneuver to trip would take up your standard action for the round. No standard action left to start fighting defensively.
Similar situation with the AoO. An AoO is not a standard action. It only allows you to make an attack. You can't start any new things. Can't even do a free action most of the time.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn
you would use fight def as PART of a standard attack action or full-round attack action
if it was a standard action to turn it on....why would anybody do it? i would just swing away as normal lol
Not sure what you are getting at. Yes it needs to be part of a standard action.
Are you saying that you think you can do it as part of a standard action, but not have it kick in until the end of the standard action?
If so, I don't think it works that way.
Not sure what you are getting at. Yes it needs to be part of a standard action.
Are you saying that you think you can do it as part of a standard action, but not have it kick in until the end of the standard action?
If so, I don't think it works that way.
while using a full-round action and tripping someone i could use my flurry of maneuvers ability to activate my fighting defensively for the next attack on the prone enemy. -4 would be offset by prone -4 ac and i would have +2 ac or +3 ac with 3 ranks in acrobatics till my next turn.
You're a little hard to follow bran.
As Kifaru said, if your standard action is "attack normally" you don't have another standard action to say "attack defensively"
If your standard action is "Fight defensively" then you can attack with the -4.
You can't have your cake and eat it too
Relevant part of the rules description.
-4 penalty on all attacks in a round
All attacks. Once you have made the first attack, this can no longer be done.
that's the thing i was asking...
as full round action i can flurry with maneuvers. i can take a standard action and add a combat maneuver in any order as long as all maneuvers are at a -2 to hit. does the rules for fighting defensively say that you must declare it at the beginning of your attack sequence?
combat expertise states:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
so between fight def and combat expertise...does it have to be declared before you do any attacks/maneuvers at the start of your turn?
could you use any of these two options on an attack of opportunity?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can choose to fight defensively as a Standard Action or you can choose to fight defensively as a Full-Round Action. Either way, when you choose to fight defensively, you take the -4 penalty on all attacks in this round. All of them. Every attack. No exceptions. For the whole round. Not just whatever part of the round is left when you decide to do this, but the whole round.
It's right there in the official rules text that you quoted in more than one post on this thread.
Because the penalty applies to "all attacks in the round", you cannot even choose to make some attacks and then fight defensively for any remaining attacks - doing so would violate the requirement that the penalty applies to all attacks this round.
Your Trip maneuver IS an attack, so you must either fight defensively for the whole round and apply the -4 penalty tot he Trip, or Trip normally without this penalty but if you do, it's then too late to decide to fight defensively this round.
You can choose to fight defensively as a Standard Action or you can choose to fight defensively as a Full-Round Action. Either way, when you choose to fight defensively, you take the -4 penalty on all attacks in this round. All of them. Every attack. No exceptions. For the whole round. Not just whatever part of the round is left when you decide to do this, but the whole round.
It's right there in the official rules text that you quoted in more than one post on this thread.
Because the penalty applies to "all attacks in the round", you cannot even choose to make some attacks and then fight defensively for any remaining attacks - doing so would violate the requirement that the penalty applies to all attacks this round.
Your Trip maneuver IS an attack, so you must either fight defensively for the whole round and apply the -4 penalty tot he Trip, or Trip normally without this penalty but if you do, it's then too late to decide to fight defensively this round.
clear and concise answer...ty very much
does that apply to combat expertise?i also understand that if any attacks against me were to occur after i started FD or combat expertise then my ac bonus would still be in effect.
is there any way to activate FD or combat expertise while taking an attack of opportunity?
ty all for posts
i think of combat expertise to be like power attack
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. power attack -1 for +2 melee
combat expertise states:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
so it would seem combat expertise and power attack are more situational and could be used in the middle of a flurry of maneuvers or possibly an attack of opportunity
what
no
not at all
what
no
not at all
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I can't find anything in the rules that says you have to activate PA before your first attack of your turn, or on your turn at all. Thus, you could activate it between your primary attack and your offhand, or your primary and your 1st iterative, or between your last iterative and an AOO. All are valid options. Some are poor choices, but they are still valid choices.anything in combat expertise state it need to be activated before your first attack of your turn?
The fact that it applies to all attacks, not just the ones you feel like applying it to, pretty much seals the deal.what
no
not at allSean K Reynolds wrote:
I can't find anything in the rules that says you have to activate PA before your first attack of your turn, or on your turn at all. Thus, you could activate it between your primary attack and your offhand, or your primary and your 1st iterative, or between your last iterative and an AOO. All are valid options. Some are poor choices, but they are still valid choices.anything in combat expertise state it need to be activated before your first attack of your turn?
ty for reply
so, the fact that is says attackS not attack for combat expertise makes it understood that it can only be done at the beginning of your turn? if i was taking an aoo and i DECLARE that i'm applying combat expertise to that attack....not work?you can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon.
just pay some person who does not have improved unarmed strike to follow your character around, whose only job is to playfully punch your character in the arm after your turn of attacking ends
their attack would provoke an AoO from you after you are done full-rounding, which you could take with a playful non-lethal slap of your own, while also activating Combat Expertise in the process
that way you will have an AC bonus against every single one of the bad guys for the rest of the round no matter how many attacks they throw at you
heck maybe even some of them will attack your punching following person, who should be fairly cheap to continually replace with new punching people once the previous punching person is dead
I am so good at this game
just pay some person who does not have improved unarmed strike to follow your character around, whose only job is to playfully punch your character in the arm after your turn of attacking ends
their attack would provoke an AoO from you after you are done full-rounding, which you could take with a playful non-lethal slap of your own, while also activating Combat Expertise in the process
that way you will have an AC bonus against every single one of the bad guys for the rest of the round no matter how many attacks they throw at you
heck maybe even some of them will attack your punching following person, who should be fairly cheap to continually replace with new punching people once the previous punching person is dead
I am so good at this game
lol.....
thats one way to do it lol
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*requests a hi5 from his punching person*
sorry
I was too busy activating Combat Expertise with my brohort here
I would say Fighting Defensively is a "stance" a little different from Power Attack. If you want to turn on Power Attack in the middle of your full attack, I would say it's ok, since you'll be "paying the prince" anyway. For every attack you make, you'll have a bonus on damage and a penalty on the attack.
Fighting Defensively is different. If you choose to make all your attacks normaly and "Turn ON" FD on your last attack, you'll gain a penaly only on that last attack and on your AoO until your next turn, but you'll keep the bonus to AC basicaly through the entire round. So, when the penalty should matters most, during your full attack, you'll would have no penalty, it's almost like you're only getting the good and avoiding the bad side of the maneuver, that's why you can't doit like that.
I think you could do this:
In order to gain the benefit of FD, you must attack at least once during your turn, be it with a spell that needs an attack (a offensive touch spell or a ray spell) or with a regular attack.
If you declare you are FD at the start of your turn, then the bonus and the penalties will last until the start of your next turn.
If you declare you are FD after you've already made some attacks on your turn, then the bonus and the penalties should last until the end of your next turn.
So you can't declare you are FD on a AoO, either you declare at the start of your turn or during it, and it will last until the start of your next turn or until the end of it, respectively, including all AoO you make in between.
In my opinion, you could even just say you are FD at the start of your turn, use a move action to move with the bonus to AC and the penalty to your AoO, if any happen during this move, and after your move attack with the penalty on your standard action. I think this would all still be fair.
combat expertise--------Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
and since it says attack rolls, by rai/raw it is intended to be used at then beginning of your attack turn only
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action.You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn
you would use fight def as PART of a standard attack action or full-round attack action
if it was a standard action to turn it on....why would anybody do it? i would just swing away as normal lol
I just wanted to clarify something about actions, in case it hasn't already been cleared up.
Aside from swift, free, immediate and "not an action" actions in a round, a character (who is not impaired somehow) is allowed one of the follow:
1} Full-round action.
2} A standard action and a move-equivalent action.
3} Two move-equivalent actions.
Typically a fighter with high-enough BAB will use his Full-round action to make multiple iterative attacks (each of which is typically referred to as an "attack action").
Some things you might think of as "an attack" aren't. For instance, trip specifically says "you can attempt to trip an opponent in place of a melee attack", so that IS something a fighter type could use iteratives to... iterate. But grapple says "as a standard action", so that ISN'T compatible with multiple attacks. To use grapple you have to use option #2 from the list above, which means you get ONE attack (grapple attempt), and a move. Special feats or class features could alter this, but this is - in general - how this works.
So, in the case of fighting defensively (standard), doing so is a standard action that applies a penalty to all attacks for the round. It's not painfully clear, but it seems to me that when using this particular usage of option #2, you could still take one attack action to make a single attack, with the penalty. The "all attacks" refers to - for instance - any attacks of opportunity you might make outside your turn.
In the case of fighting defensively (full-round action), doing so uses option #1 and explicitly states that you do this while taking a "full-attack action", which is itself a full-round action. So it's clear you get all your normal attacks.
The point is that it's important to be clear that an "attack" or "attack action" is a usage of, or a subset of, a standard or full-round action.
At the start of your round, if you declare you're using your full-round action to do a full-attack, that's what you're doing. You do NOT get a bunch of standard actions... you get a bunch of attack actions. Since fighting defensively is (at least) a standard action, you don't have any of those left, so cannot activate it mid-attack-cycle. If, however, you declare that you're using your full-round action to do a "fighting defensively", that in turn grants you your set of attacks, but applies the penalty from the start, meaning again you can't toggle it mid-cycle.
Combat Expertise works the same way, for pretty much the same reason.
ty anguish
great explanation
some pcs wanted to activate combat expertise like they would power attack anytime they declared they were attacking, any situation.
fighting defensively is worded much more clearly than CE and all at table agree with above stated reasons
Move actions. Move-equivalent actions were a 3.0 thing.[/nitpick]
To be fair, when you've participated in as many "can I take a 5ft step after I use a move action to stand up?" discussions as I have, you learn to use language that explains things.
Move actions. Move-equivalent actions were a 3.0 thing.[/nitpick]To be fair, when you've participated in as many "can I take a 5ft step after I use a move action to stand up?" discussions as I have, you learn to use language that explains things.
lol, well i think you can take a 5ft step after using a non-movement move action to stand up from prone....
lol, and i'm playing a reach trip fighter right now... so i hate that rule
this whole discussion came up because pcs wanted to activate combat expertise, power attack, fd after i have already tripped the enemies. minus to hit is corrected by prone enemy -4 ac
ty for your input
Melee tactics toolbox inside back cover sheds light on time to activate various melee options.
done and done
great tool for all at tablety great suggestion