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Thank you, Kalindlara, for posting the links to where I meant.
You're welcome. :)
I didn't have the energy to go through Sword of Valor's thread. So many posts...
I did figure out the main takeaway, though. Anyone looking for evidence of frothing bigotry and hate on paizo.com will find little - because that stuff gets moderated away.
I'm happier for that. But I can't speak for anyone else. :/
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Kalindlara,
There was some discussion at the same time in the LGBT Gamers thread which confirms your 'misinterpretation', at least for some. The messages that were deleted were more of that depressing same, as you surmised. The ones that remain are the ones that Paizo thought it could tolerate. The ones that didn't survive had a very good reason not to.
As for how they should appear? As people who are LGBTQ or non-binary. Much the way all the ones who are people who are straight appear. Paizon's included LGB since the beginning and are now having those characters be more prominant and seem to be including more of the other letters, althoguh it may be that they're just being more prominantly displatyed as well and I missed earlier examples.
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Kalindlara,
There was some discussion at the same time in the LGBT Gamers thread which confirms your 'misinterpretation', at least for some. The messages that were deleted were more of that depressing same, as you surmised. The ones that remain are the ones that Paizo thought it could tolerate. The ones that didn't survive had a very good reason not to.As for how they should appear? As people who are LGBTQ or non-binary. Much the way all the ones who are people who are straight appear. Paizon's included LGB since the beginning and are now having those characters be more prominant and seem to be including more of the other letters, althoguh it may be that they're just being more prominantly displatyed as well and I missed earlier examples.
I keep meaning to read through that thread and post there, but it's very intimidating. Partially because of the length, but also... I'm worried that I don't have anything important to add, or that I'll come off the wrong way (as I may have done here), or that I'm not important enough. I know, I know, silly girl. :/
As for my second question, I appreciate the response, but... I was specifically curious about what those who were critical of Paizo's LGBT-friendly publishing policies thought. "They're just making poorly-written token characters" sounds better than "I just don't like LGBT representation"... but I don't want to accuse anyone of that without getting their take first. I like to try to think the best of everyone. :)
Other than that, I'm with you.
OK so in summary we need:
* A Kickstarter for Mecha Poets new 3PP is needed - and contributors.
* A petition calling for Miss Feathers to be Venture Captain of the Kaer Maga Lodge.
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I still don't see the problem with asking for representation. The whole "make your own products" thing seems to say that you have some problem with these themes appearing in Pathfinder products at all. (In Shifty's case, I'm not as certain. What are your thoughts on LGBT representation in places other than Kaer Maga?)
I still don't understand what inclusion is costing any of you, or how you are harmed by it. Could you clarify further, please?
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I don't presume to answer universally for others, but here's my take.
There is no problem with asking for representation.
Indeed it is a perfectly legitimate and reasonable request to ask for not only representation, but also things that are non-representative. I am not a female bi-sexual Pirate, but I'd love to see more Anne Bonnie in Black Sails (if you watch that show) because she is a mysterious and engaging character who I think is only just starting to reveal.
In short, ask away.
Where this can get a bit flaky though is that the request is usually made to people who aren't always able to well represent your request as they don't have the same background and first hand experience as you. I struggle to watch a lot of specific types of movies because my subject familiarity just leaves me eye rolling in disbelief at what I see on the screen.
Why did I suggest MP make a 3PP?
Well as pointed out, MP doesn't actually work for Paizo, indeed only a small minority of the gaming community does and Paizo can't hire all the talent out there! - however Paizo DO allow people a significant amount of flexibility in offering 3PP product, and hence a group of like minded people who are SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS might be well positioned to develop content that fits with the game and achieves their goal of representation - I will also correct one point I think you missed in that I also called on them to continue to develop pitches and proposals for the vast number of opportunities Paizo does offer as a pathway to its official product lines (Open calls, Superstar etc)
I am suggesting a multi-pronged approach, and one of those is the development of a pool of talent that can be drawn on for subject expertise and for them to have a channel to work on delivery. I can't see how that is a bad thing.
My personal view is that sexuality isn't such a big deal, my tastes and your tastes don't have to be the same, and it's no judgement or insult to each other if they differ. The only time it really becomes a talking point is if they happen to be complementary views and we are interested in each other. If so then lets have a chat, if not then there are a million other things intelligent people could be discussing.
My view is that Miss Feathers practically IS Kaer Maga. That said, Elias Sayer and the Tallow Boys could present a problem.
Outside Kaer Maga?
A list I am certain is not complete but there are some brilliant examples of 'doing it right' in there.
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I have been reading this thread for a while now and I must say something that has come to my own mind.
Why does it matter?
Why does your sexuality matter as long as you have found true love with someone, or even some people you care about?
Why does your gender role matter as long as you have inner peace and a tranquil life?
Why are you confused when you can simply know yourself free of labels and free of conformity?
I look at threads like these and wonder why people must search for exterior gratification for something that permeates the mind and spirit, not the body.
I would also like every child to have a role model for every situation, but finding these role models will not come from mass media, corporations, or the exchange of money. These role models, as all role models, should come from real life. Real people. I feel that yes, the english language suffers in calling anyone a gender neutral term. But this is a failing of many languages. Would I like to see more varied Iconics? Of course. But whether or not those Iconics are ever written should have no bearing on one's own personal enlightenment and spiritual journey that all humanity takes. I cannot wait for a world in which a person is just a person and gender identifiers are no longer required because humanity is a collective family that should get along.
The day we just use the word "friend" for every person we meet, is the day I live and breath for. Alas, there ARE many bigots out there that wish to put others down just for being "different" and that is a true shame and crime against decency. There is no normal. There is only the Individual Self. Each Self is unique and there should be no label for any one person.
That would all be nice :)
Where are these anti-LGBT militant players that everyone keeps mentioning? Especially those who will loudly voice their... Disapproval? Disgust? Ignorance? Over a character in fiction?
Most people like that are too fundementalist to play already, so we can expect to have a lot of breathing room already. After all, if you think that calling that elf druid that worships nature spirits "they" is too much, you will be horrified by all those completely cisgendered Asmodean inquisitors and quite the game anyway.Are we still living in that long gone moral guardian era where DnD players were communing with the devil and spreading immorality?
Let's talk actual experiences, not "Well, I think there'd be bigots".
For what its worth, I recall two prominent posters up and quitting, and making a big deal of doing so, when they found out that a trans character who was in a same sex relationship had shown up in Wrath of Righteous. Several big threads with a ton of moderation popped up around that time over it.
Granted both posters were rather trollish if I recall there non-LGBT related posts, but just because they don't post here any longer doesn't mean they no longer exist, nor does it mean that others are not out there...
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For what its worth, I recall two prominent posters up and quitting, and making a big deal of doing so, when they found out that a trans character who was in a same sex relationship had shown up in Wrath of Righteous. Several big threads with a ton of moderation popped up around that time over it.
Granted both posters were rather trollish if I recall there non-LGBT related posts, but just because they don't post here any longer doesn't mean they no longer exist, nor does it mean that others are not out there...
And the world kept turning, and those people are gone.
This sounds like a great outcome for everyone.
Do you recall who they were?
Not the specific online names though, although one was a frequent commenter in a thread about how gory your games are, and repeatably said that anyone who wasn't describing battles with NC-17 descriptions was playing the game wrong (which eventually caused that thread to shut down).
I've been following this thread silently for a couple days now.
First off there are a couple people who've really impressed me with their level of politeness and decorum while discussing a touchy subject that's clearly near and dear to their hearts. Well done Paizo community.
I'm a little surprised that people put so much stock in tiny little pieces of backstory fiction. I guess with the comics line being a thing now it's a little more than that. Still I always felt like part of the beauty of RPGs was even pregens can be whoever you want them to be. If you tell me Valeros is gay when you play him or that Lini is asexual who am I to argue?
But ok representation everywhere is better. I'm onboard with that.
My big thing is I can never fault a writer for writing what they know. I personally would never feel comfortable writing an agendered character for mass public consumption because even after a fair bit of research and reading it's not a point of view I understand very well and I've no doubt that to anyone who does, any attempt on my part would come off as shoddy and forced and best, offensive at worst.
So I guess I'm all for inclusiveness but am wary of making the problem worse by trying to help.
- Torger
P.S. full disclosure, white, straight, cis, male. I tick pretty much all the majority demographic boxes.
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But whether or not those Iconics are ever written should have no bearing on one's own personal enlightenment and spiritual journey that all humanity takes.
And who is saying they should? Nobody's taking the position you're opposing.
Role models come from real-life, yes, but also from media. It's not either/or. Media has massive power and always will—it's how we experience different walks of life we'd never understand otherwise. A show with a transgendered character will educate millions of people who otherwise would have been ignorant to the very existence of such folk. Most people I meet think "transgendered" is the same thing as "transvestite" or "drag queen/king". Even those who understand it tend to treat it as something of a joke.
This is because the media treats it as a joke. More open-minded portrayals in the media aren't just "nice", they're required for culture to evolve. The media reflects culture, yes, but that means people watch it assuming it will inform us on what is normal in culture. It therefore has power to influence our perceptions of normality and what is acceptable in society.
By the way, I think this is a pretty interesting video about trans* people in media.
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I honestly don't mind inclusion for the LGBT community, even a couple of Iconics, it could actually offer some interesting characters and enhance adventures. I would say, agree, that it shouldn't be made a big deal of. If one happens to be of a less common sexuality or 'identity', have it mentioned or brought up in conversion but perhaps don't make it a big deal... unless some want to see the Iconic deal with the same struggles and hardships the LGBTQ+ deal with?
I admit, I would worry as a creator or writer of messing up somehow with such characters if going with 'realism' of the situation. Especially since I am a straight white male and already have a had time understanding another situation because of being an Aspie... so I would see mention it but not drawing attention to it unless I could get the help the LGBT community and other minorities to try and not mess up somehow. I wouldn't have such characters be all over the place, but appearing here or there could maybe work at least in mention.
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I will say when it comes to the paladin Iconic... wasn't it recently decided she was lesbian and paired with another Iconic? What leaves me a bit uncertain is I believe it was originally a joke, with Paizo having it that there was some teasing/flirting by one and the paladin telling fans not to encourage her in embarrassment from the attention.
I admit, I haven't been keeping up with the Iconics but essentially I worry the decision to have the paladin be/become lesbian was because it had became popular by the Pathfinder fans so they made it canon... which could be considered a bit pandering, since it was originally meant to be humorous fun but made official because others like the idea. Perhaps keeping up with the stories involving these characters would ease any concern I have, as it could have developed quite naturally and not come about just because fans liked the idea.
But we aren't talking about the way things used to be. Now there are a lot more women resisting those notions and expressing themselves as they please. The same holds true for the Pathfinder setting—just look at Amiri. So demons molding themselves based on old stereotypes doesn't make much sense. For devils, maybe, since they change much slower.
Also, yeah, Buri has a point. A lot of cultures gave women plenty of authority. It was just that managing the home grew to be less significant and authoritative than doing the menial labor when coins and bartering started to be the dominant lifestyle.
I honestly don't mind inclusion for the LGBT community, even a couple of Iconics, it could actually offer some interesting characters and enhance adventures. I would say, agree, that it shouldn't be made a big deal of. If one happens to be of a less common sexuality or 'identity', have it mentioned or brought up in conversion but perhaps don't make it a big deal... unless some want to see the Iconic deal with the same struggles and hardships the LGBTQ+ deal with?
I admit, I would worry as a creator or writer of messing up somehow with such characters if going with 'realism' of the situation. Especially since I am a straight white male and already have a had time understanding another situation because of being an Aspie... so I would see mention it but not drawing attention to it unless I could get the help the LGBT community and other minorities to try and not mess up somehow. I wouldn't have such characters be all over the place, but appearing here or there could maybe work at least in mention.
----------------------------------------I will say when it comes to the paladin Iconic... wasn't it recently decided she was lesbian and paired with another Iconic? What leaves me a bit uncertain is I believe it was originally a joke, with Paizo having it that there was some teasing/flirting by one and the paladin telling fans not to encourage her in embarrassment from the attention.
I admit, I haven't been keeping up with the Iconics but essentially I worry the decision to have the paladin be/become lesbian was because it had became popular by the Pathfinder fans so they made it canon... which could be considered a bit pandering, since it was originally meant to be humorous fun but made official because others like the idea. Perhaps keeping up with the stories involving these characters would ease any concern I have, as it could have developed quite naturally and not come about just because fans liked the idea.
I'm just gonna point out that a sizable percentage of Paizo employees are LGBT, and by default the vast majority of Paizo employees have friends who are LGBT.