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Just, whatever: the last few posts are almost perfect examples. All i was doing was bringing up an example of why some people are uncomfortable broaching the subject.
Really? No one's been jumping down your throat about it. People have offered polite rebuttals: counter-criticism of your criticism. If the kind of responses you've been getting in this thread are the kind of thing that makes you not want to risk putting LGBTQ people in a fictional work, then I can't imagine you attempting to include any moderately controversial material.
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Well, adding a variety of character is easy when you have a large group of characters and/or when you can customize your hero. It's pretty freaking difficult when you have a specific protagonist in mind and want the story to be about them, though.
If a work is created with only one protagonist, there's only so many identities they can represent. Obviously. You can make that one protagonist a straight white guy. That's fine. But it is an artistic choice to do that. When you have control over literally every aspect of a fictional character's creation, what they end up looking and acting like is made by choice, even if those choices are relatively arbitrary. The nonfictional population's percentages of various identity markers doesn't control a given character's creation.
I do think that we could use more variety, but it's unrealistic to expect every piece of media to contain a member of every subgroup of the population.
Agreed. But some people are already overrepresented in media. Again, what characters look and act like are artistic choices.
And, sad as it is, devs often do fear to portray minorities out of fear that they will be accused of bigotry because the character has some moral failing or another... Even DA:I, as progressive as it is, didn't include the old Desire Demons out of fear of being called sexist. In order to have more representation of <any portion of human population ever> we gotta accept that some members of <said portion of population> are cowardly, violent, hateful, etc, etc...
Yeah, there are a lot of different things that people can be, and not all of them are good qualities.
But like, if Desire Demons were really about universal Desire, why do all only look like succubae? That seems like false advertising; shouldn't they be called Lustful Desire For Sexualized Femininity Demons, then?
"All"?
It was sort of their "default form" (and the one used for combat, mostly because of time and budget constraints...they couldn't afford to make multiple models), but they've taken various forms. Most prominently taking the form of loved ones lost and whatnot, because the person desired their dead wife/sister/father/whatever back.
If a work is created with only one protagonist, there's only so many identities they can represent. Obviously. You can make that one protagonist a straight white guy. That's fine. But it is an artistic choice to do that. When you have control over literally every aspect of a fictional character's creation, what they end up looking and acting like is made by choice, even if those choices are relatively arbitrary. The nonfictional population's percentages of various identity markers doesn't control a given character's creation.
So...? You can't have equal representation if you don't accept equal representation of negative qualities as well.
But like, if Desire Demons were really about universal Desire, why do all only look like succubae?
Because they are based on Succubus? You know... That which is probably the most iconic type of desire demon in pop culture.
Why are pride demons all male? Is pride only present in men? Shouldn't they be called "Proud of Having a Penis Demon"? Desire demons have a feminine appearance because every species of demon has a certain appearance, and in the case of Desire, it looks like a succubus.
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Ugh... Whatever... I'm not having this discussion with you again.
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Actually, I believe mariliths are the demon race associated with pride. I've always wondered why they seem to be universally female, though...
Literature analysis would provide possible answers, but this is one of those cases where my offer of illumination is preceded by the sage advice of Agent K: Don't ask questions you don't really want the answer to. Do you still want to proceed?
Opposite of my experience, actually. We kinda tend to congregate together and a group that just has one non-straight person in it usually doesn't for long. Especially when you're in a situation where you can pick your social group (such as, say, when you're putting together a crew of adventurers).Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?Because they like people for their personalities, and because they enjoy hanging out with them, not just because they share a sexual preference?
Just a thought. Crazy one, I know.
Let me rephrase that. The "one gay friend in a group" doesn't make sense; why would there be "THE ONE gay friend" in a group, with that being the only queer character in a given fictional work, in a fictional setting (like a fictionalized Earth) where it's likely that they would hang out with more than just cis hetero people?
I thought my context was pretty clear, since I was talking about queer representation in fiction and not about friendships between actual meatspace people. Rest assured, Rynjin, your gender and sexuality have nothing to do with whether or not I would want to spend time with you.
Generally speaking, fiction reflects life. There's changes here and there, but people don't really change.
The "one gay (or trans, or whatever)" friend happens IRL constantly. Why woudn't it be the same in fiction?
Must the entire group be queer, or none of them? Or can not one (or two) people be different?
I see no reason why a fictionalized Earth would be any different from a real Earth in that regard.
I think that people tend to be in more than one group. Like my friends from the university and my friends from the job, or something.
Keep in mind in all this there is literally tens of thousands of years of evolutionary pressure to maintain a largely heterosexual, male/female dynamic even if other pairings (and groupings) occur simultaneously. So, a large part of our societies are centered around those concepts and dynamics. That really should be no surprise.
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Actually, I believe mariliths are the demon race associated with pride. I've always wondered why they seem to be universally female, though...Literature analysis would provide possible answers, but this is one of those cases where my offer of illumination is preceded by the sage advice of Agent K: Don't ask questions you don't really want the answer to. Do you still want to proceed?
Yes. :)
I was referring specifically to Pathfinder. I didn't know mariliths existed in literature. I was responding to Lemmy's post, which described "pride demons" as always male.
I asked Mr. Jacobs in his thread. I'm curious to see what he says.
I know what you're getting at in general, though. I know why succcubi and incubi are gendered by their behavior, for example. :)
Lemmy was discussing Dragon Age: Inquisition. :P
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Actually, I believe mariliths are the demon race associated with pride. I've always wondered why they seem to be universally female, though...Literature analysis would provide possible answers, but this is one of those cases where my offer of illumination is preceded by the sage advice of Agent K: Don't ask questions you don't really want the answer to. Do you still want to proceed?Yes. :)
I was referring specifically to Pathfinder. I didn't know mariliths existed in literature. I was responding to Lemmy's post, which described "pride demons" as always male.
I asked Mr. Jacobs in his thread. I'm curious to see what he says.
I know what you're getting at in general, though. I know why succcubi and incubi are gendered by their behavior, for example. :)
Pulling from Demons Revisited: a Marilith is typified and exceedingly prideful but also aware that they are never the top dog so to speak, either serving as generals to some greater demonic lord or being a ruler in their own right but comparatively weaker to others.
A lot of ancient literature presents women as enviously protective of their position within the household. The opening of The Ramayana of Valmiki providing one such example. Given some archaic views of marriage dynamics, the view of the woman as second in command of the household, and subsequent imagery of the vain wife probably loaned itself to the Marilith's position. Incidentally, Indian legends typically have demonic and divine entities having multiple arms.
All demons, by their very intrinsic nature seeking to be a perversion of the natural order however leads to a situation of "I am always lying", and such an existential viewpoint of the world held by a soul that becomes a marilith can reasonably be assumed wrong.
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Lemmy was discussing Dragon Age: Inquisition. :PI see. I've only ever played Origins, and that was years ago. I didn't even finish it. :)
And yes, the Pride demons of Dragon Age definitely have their voices in an octave range that evokes "male" in a person's mind. Going off their depiction, and I quote from the Wiki's quotation of an in-universe commentary:
"The most powerful demons yet encountered are the pride demons, perhaps because they, among all their kind, most resemble men; as clever and manipulative as the desire demon, with a penchant for cruel irony that is almost human. While the demons of desire largely engage in the bribery of mortals, pride will use mortals' own best nature against them. Clever men outwit themselves. Strong men crush themselves. Humble men forget themselves. Jealous men fear themselves. They turn corruption and ruin into an art. —From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel"
Essentially, a man sees himself as the only thing that can best himself. A satisfactorily male-ish entity to represent that follows.
So, women don't have that problem? :P
Pride Demon: "Listen, I'm actually a deeply troubling social commentary on the arrogance of humanity. See, men fear themselves. Men...s$@@, this isn't gonna work, is it?"
Female Adventurer: "I don't think I get the symbolism."
Pride Demon: "G$!@%&n it. We didn't think this through. Don't you have any male partymembers?"
Female Adventurer: "We have a gnome."
Pride Demon: "G*& D@&N it."
Female Adventurer: "Will a female dwarf do?"
Pride Demon: "...does she have a beard?"
Female Adventurer: "Sorry. Golarion dwarf."
Pride Demon: "Can you just kill me already?"
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So, women don't have that problem? :P
Pride Demon: "Listen, I'm actually a deeply troubling social commentary on the arrogance of humanity. See, men fear themselves. Men...s$+~, this isn't gonna work, is it?"
Female Adventurer: "I don't think I get the symbolism."
Pride Demon: "G+%#@%n it. We didn't think this through. Don't you have any male partymembers?"
Female Adventurer: "We have a gnome."
Pride Demon: "G+* D#@N it."
Female Adventurer: "Will a female dwarf do?"
Pride Demon: "...does she have a beard?"
Female Adventurer: "Sorry. Golarion dwarf."
Pride Demon: "Can you just kill me already?"
Nobody ever said demons were logical representations of the universe, indeed in being contrary to morality, they kinda have to be the precise opposite.
Well, then, does it really make sense to analyze them as complex metaphors when they themselves refuse to conform to a metaphor that makes sense? Wouldn't it make more sense to just look at them as creatures designed with certain stereotypes in mind as narrative shorthand? Seductresses, arrogant men, etc? ;P
By the way, yes, I realize I'm overanalyzing and stringing together two fairly unrelated games that make use of completely separate stereotypes. And it's fun! Wheee!
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Well, then, does it really make sense to analyze them as complex metaphors when they themselves refuse to conform to a metaphor that makes sense? Wouldn't it make more sense to just look at them as creatures designed with certain stereotypes in mind as narrative shorthand? Seductresses, arrogant men, etc? ;P
And here is shown plain my typical weakness: long-windedness.
Yep, narrative shorthand for stereotypes.
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I have no idea what I'm arguing anymore. I think I'm literally arguing nothing. Help. I'm trapped in my own demented brand of logic.
Lemmy was discussing Dragon Age: Inquisition. :PI see. I've only ever played Origins, and that was years ago. I didn't even finish it. :)And yes, the Pride demons of Dragon Age definitely have their voices in an octave range that evokes "male" in a person's mind. Going off their depiction, and I quote from the Wiki's quotation of an in-universe commentary:
"The most powerful demons yet encountered are the pride demons, perhaps because they, among all their kind, most resemble men; as clever and manipulative as the desire demon, with a penchant for cruel irony that is almost human. While the demons of desire largely engage in the bribery of mortals, pride will use mortals' own best nature against them. Clever men outwit themselves. Strong men crush themselves. Humble men forget themselves. Jealous men fear themselves. They turn corruption and ruin into an art. —From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel"
Essentially, a man sees himself as the only thing that can best himself. A satisfactorily male-ish entity to represent that follows.
I'd love to see how you try to spin the fact that Sloth demons are ALSO presented always as male into some kind of ego stroke.
I have no idea what I'm arguing anymore. I think I'm literally arguing nothing. Help. I'm trapped in my own demented brand of logic.
How illogical of you. ;)
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As a nonbinary, person, I'm super down for more gender variation among the iconics, and the fantasy genre generally.
/No snark/
If you are that interested in seeing it, why aren't you writing it?
To be frank, if you are the subject matter expert on what it is you want to see, then maybe its over to you to start the ball rolling on developing those characters. As a collective of people who aren't as across the issue as you are we are never going to be able to produce the authenticity you are looking for, nor the diversity you call for.
At best you'd get some sort of Dances with Wolves with Kevin Costner level NPC's that make you cry as a bunch of stereotypes get hobbled together.
Anyhow, just saying, I reckon that if we want to see it done well and done with some sense of authenticity then its over to the talented community within the gender-politic space to deal with.
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As a nonbinary, person, I'm super down for more gender variation among the iconics, and the fantasy genre generally./No snark/
If you are that interested in seeing it, why aren't you writing it?
To be frank, if you are the subject matter expert on what it is you want to see, then maybe its over to you to start the ball rolling on developing those characters. As a collective of people who aren't as across the issue as you are we are never going to be able to produce the authenticity you are looking for, nor the diversity you call for.
At best you'd get some sort of Dances with Wolves with Kevin Costner level NPC's that make you cry as a bunch of stereotypes get hobbled together.Anyhow, just saying, I reckon that if we want to see it done well and done with some sense of authenticity then its over to the talented community within the gender-politic space to deal with.
I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...
Where are these anti-LGBT militant players that everyone keeps mentioning? Especially those who will loudly voice their... Disapproval? Disgust? Ignorance? Over a character in fiction?
Most people like that are too fundementalist to play already, so we can expect to have a lot of breathing room already. After all, if you think that calling that elf druid that worships nature spirits "they" is too much, you will be horrified by all those completely cisgendered Asmodean inquisitors and quite the game anyway.
Are we still living in that long gone moral guardian era where DnD players were communing with the devil and spreading immorality?
Let's talk actual experiences, not "Well, I think there'd be bigots".
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I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...
If only people with public authority made change, nothing would. There's a lot less empowered peoples can (and need to and must) do to effect meaningful change for themselves. Start discussions (here), submit materials as Paizo accepts lots of forms of content submissions, make characters and introduce the ideas nonconfrontationally through roleplay, and so on. To think you need an official seal to affect change is shortsighted.
Well, there's certainly been a fair share of people saying things like, "I don't like this transgendered iconic because I don't want to hear about someone's orientation or gender identity [if it's nonstandard]," and the like. It's not "blatant" bigotry like you hear from the WBC, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
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Where are these anti-LGBT militant players that everyone keeps mentioning? Especially those who will loudly voice their... Disapproval? Disgust? Ignorance? Over a character in fiction?
Most people like that are too fundementalist to play already, so we can expect to have a lot of breathing room already. After all, if you think that calling that elf druid that worships nature spirits "they" is too much, you will be horrified by all those completely cisgendered Asmodean inquisitors and quite the game anyway.Are we still living in that long gone moral guardian era where DnD players were communing with the devil and spreading immorality?
Let's talk actual experiences, not "Well, I think there'd be bigots".
Go look at the threads for Wrath of the Righteous, especially the first book, to see more than a few howls of outrage about the inclusion of a married female couple. There was more pushback than outrage, granted, but there were howls. Much was also 'forced down throats' especially when a male couple appeared the very next installment.
I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...
I don't think so either :)
The point is that clearly people such as MP are far more across the issue than the majority of people, so it sort of makes sense that people such as MP be the lifters out there building what it is they want to see.
There is nothing stopping them kicking off a 3PP tomorrow and starting to write the material, or directly submitting said content for a myriad of competitions and pathways to the mainstream audience.
Wrath was one solidly produced example, but there needs to be more people on the case if there is such a thirst for the diverse content, and there's not a lot of point asking someone to write to your particular taste and preference if they are only guessing, and you have all the answers - its like trying to play a game of Guess Who, but tied to a lot of emotion every time you get the answer wrong.
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I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...If only people with public authority made change, nothing would. There's a lot less empowered peoples can (and need to and must) do to effect meaningful change for themselves. Start discussions (here), submit materials as Paizo accepts lots of forms of content submissions, make characters and introduce the ideas nonconfrontationally through roleplay, and so on. To think you need an official seal to affect change is shortsighted.
Of course; I quite agree. :)
However, my point was that mechaPoet can't create an iconic, by definition, since the iconics are Paizo's creations.
Any number of characters? Yes. But a Pathfinder iconic? No.
That was all. :)
I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...If only people with public authority made change, nothing would. There's a lot less empowered peoples can (and need to and must) do to effect meaningful change for themselves. Start discussions (here), submit materials as Paizo accepts lots of forms of content submissions, make characters and introduce the ideas nonconfrontationally through roleplay, and so on. To think you need an official seal to affect change is shortsighted.
NAILED IT!
I just typed the same thing.
Go look at the threads for Wrath of the Righteous, especially the first book, to see more than a few howls of outrage about the inclusion of a married female couple. There was more pushback than outrage, granted, but there were howls. Much was also 'forced down throats' especially when a male couple appeared the very next installment.
Do you have links?
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Go look at the threads for Wrath of the Righteous, especially the first book, to see more than a few howls of outrage about the inclusion of a married female couple. There was more pushback than outrage, granted, but there were howls. Much was also 'forced down throats' especially when a male couple appeared the very next installment.Where are these anti-LGBT militant players that everyone keeps mentioning? Especially those who will loudly voice their... Disapproval? Disgust? Ignorance? Over a character in fiction?
Most people like that are too fundementalist to play already, so we can expect to have a lot of breathing room already. After all, if you think that calling that elf druid that worships nature spirits "they" is too much, you will be horrified by all those completely cisgendered Asmodean inquisitors and quite the game anyway.Are we still living in that long gone moral guardian era where DnD players were communing with the devil and spreading immorality?
Let's talk actual experiences, not "Well, I think there'd be bigots".
My local gaming community, which is very conservative, was also upset about the appearance of a transgendered character in that volume.
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I don't think mechaPoet works for Paizo...If only people with public authority made change, nothing would. There's a lot less empowered peoples can (and need to and must) do to effect meaningful change for themselves. Start discussions (here), submit materials as Paizo accepts lots of forms of content submissions, make characters and introduce the ideas nonconfrontationally through roleplay, and so on. To think you need an official seal to affect change is shortsighted.
"Never underestimate the power of a small group of committed people to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has." ~ Margaret Mead
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Go look at the threads for Wrath of the Righteous, especially the first book, to see more than a few howls of outrage about the inclusion of a married female couple. There was more pushback than outrage, granted, but there were howls. Much was also 'forced down throats' especially when a male couple appeared the very next installment.Do you have links?
I'll go have a look for you. :)
No howls in there.
There was one poster who was being sarcastic, but I think he was taken literally and it was mistaken for a rant.
Wow. I'm surprised the "change what you don't like" line got used to justify narrow mindedness a la exclusion over inclusion. What the GM did in that thread was fine. Other GMs doing similar is fine. It shouldn't get Paizo lambasted for doing something different.
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All right, since you're all so adamant that I launch my own third-party Pathfinder line, I'm doing it.
The first product will be a splat book on how to introduce, deal with, and combat systematic oppression in your Pathfinder RPG games. It'll be called "Social Justice Warriors," it's going to be great.
After several pages, very few threads survive the scope of the OP.
All right, since you're all so adamant that I launch my own third-party Pathfinder line, I'm doing it.
The first product will be a splat book on how to introduce, deal with, and combat systematic oppression in your Pathfinder RPG games. It'll be called "Social Justice Warriors," it's going to be great.
Literal warriors... NPC class only. ;)
Seems overpowered. Sure they can't be fighters?
*Zooms out on motorcycle*
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The first product will be a splat book on how to introduce, deal with, and combat systematic oppression in your Pathfinder RPG games. It'll be called "Social Justice Warriors," it's going to be great.
We already have Lib Edge faction. /cheek
On a side note, if you are genuinely going to get a 3PP off the ground then that would be great! There are some talented people on the boards here that can make some great contributions so you'd pull in writers for sure :)
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Turns out Product Discussion is where I should have been looking. :)
From this thread...
It's difficult to find evidence when our lovely moderator staff is so thorough. :)
Here's Sword of Valor. Play the home game! :D